JCBA Negotiations and updates for AA Fleet

[ograc]

Although I would agree a show of unity can go a long way in negotiations I'm not convinced informational picketing is effective. #1 if it is done by a few in a few stations it conveys a lack of unity and a high level of apathy among the members. Not the desired message you want to send the company. #2 the traveling public (AA customers) are not the least bit concerned about how unfairly we feel we are being treated. If polled many would be of the opinion we are already over compensated. Informational picketing is like asking someone to fight your battle for you. The traveling public is not going to rebook on another airline just because we don't have a JCBA.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Although I would agree a show of unity can go a long way in negotiations I'm not convinced informational picketing is effective. #1 if it is done by a few in a few stations it conveys a lack of unity and a high level of apathy among the members. Not the desired message you want to send the company. #2 the traveling public (AA customers) are not the least bit concerned about how unfairly we feel we are being treated. If polled many would be of the opinion we are already over compensated. Informational picketing is like asking someone to fight your battle for you. The traveling public is not going to rebook on another airline just because we don't have a JCBA.

The message is to the company that we are unified. Parker told the stews and pilots, "No dice....see you in future negotiations" when they met and wanted to reopen their contract. But the pilots and stews picketed company headquarters and went to the media regarding other issues. Right now, United airlines is the goat in the press. Believe me, our leadership ought to be bright enough to issue a corporate campaign in the context of these talks to secure our future as well. And airlines are heavily scrutinized in the press right now. The unions can offer up a lot of crap that could stick, and become a nuisance and replace United as the media goat.

The result was very effective and Parker miraculously found $900 million to jam in their pockets. So I disagree with you on this. The reality is that Parker needs to see that we are unified and I'm not sure we are. That's why the IAM needs to do this since the trigger was already pulled. There is no turning back now.

As far as participation, the members must be forced to engage and do this. I think it could be very successful and bring us closer in unity. Doing nothing already implies that there is no unity and that the members don't give a rats rear end. Then they toss a TA at us and say that it's the best we can get because nobody cares. Such a thing would risk small stations, catering, and health care and keep us in cost neutral or concession mode. The alternative would seem to be to join in with the TWU and build unity. That's the only way I know how. Besides, the trigger was already pulled by the TWU so without IAM doing the right thing (and it is the right thing at this time) and showing support, we ought not to expect the TWU to stand with us regarding small station grandfather rights, etc. The company is watching.

 

[Traymark]

Acquiescence is not the role of any union.

LUS Pilots and FA's unions did not get that memo NYer, they stepped aside as they should have being the smaller representative group.

Why would the "proper role" be for the IAM to step aside? Why wouldn't the "proper role" be for the TWU to step aside?

See above.

 

[AANOTOK]

I have no problem admitting it Al. All you stated above is correct.I actually think picketing can cause more harm than good. A. many passengers couldn't give a rats ass about our plight and may actually be turned off. B. If you do not have enough folks join the line, the lack of unity may even be more evident to the company. While I don't have the answer to what would be more productive in our push to get a contract, again, I don't have a problem with what you said.

At seems as though you and I are on the same page, ograc. This was my comment a couple of pages ago.

 

[AANOTOK]

Why would the "proper role" be for the IAM to step aside? Why wouldn't the "proper role" be for the TWU to step aside? I get you do not like the Association, heck I don't think you like either the TWU or IAM, but please explain why it would have been proper for the IAM to bow down and step aside for the TWU? Did you want to staple all of the LUS people below LAA people? What was/is your motivation for wanting the IAM to step aside? I think you are scared of what kind of JCBA the Association may bring back. It may just be good enough for all of the naysayers to have to eat a little bot of crow and admit that the Association worked out for all. But you seem like to kind of person that would never be happy. No matter what gains you may get, it still won't be good enough, or it didn't happen fast enough. Or any number of other reasons only you can think up. Were you an AMFA supporter? Is that why you are so bitter?

Do you really need to ask where the bitterness comes from, especially if you are LAA? And before you comment, I'm Fleet Service LAA and never involved in any AMFA drive or any other union replacement efforts.

 

[ograc]

The message is to the company that we are unified. Parker told the stews and pilots, "No dice....see you in future negotiations" when they met and wanted to reopen their contract. But the pilots and stews picketed company headquarters and went to the media regarding other issues. Right now, United airlines is the goat in the press. Believe me, our leadership ought to be bright enough to issue a corporate campaign in the context of these talks to secure our future as well. And airlines are heavily scrutinized in the press right now. The unions can offer up a lot of crap that could stick, and become a nuisance and replace United as the media goat.

The result was very effective and Parker miraculously found $900 million to jam in their pockets. So I disagree with you on this. The reality is that Parker needs to see that we are unified and I'm not sure we are. That's why the IAM needs to do this since the trigger was already pulled. There is no turning back now.

As far as participation, the members must be forced to engage and do this. I think it could be very successful and bring us closer in unity. Doing nothing already implies that there is no unity and that the members don't give a rats rear end. Then they toss a TA at us and say that it's the best we can get because nobody cares. Such a thing would risk small stations, catering, and health care and keep us in cost neutral or concession mode. The alternative would seem to be to join in with the TWU and build unity. That's the only way I know how. Besides, the trigger was already pulled by the TWU so without IAM doing the right thing (and it is the right thing at this time) and showing support, we ought not to expect the TWU to stand with us regarding small station grandfather rights, etc. The company is watching.

Picket Corporate Headquarters? It did work for the Flight Crews. Will corporate have the same urgency for Fleet? Anybody's guess. Forcing people to participate is hardly a demonstration of unity and the company would be all over that. One certainty... traveling public could care less.

 

[WeAAsles]

LUS Pilots and FA's unions did not get that memo NYer, they stepped aside as they should have being the smaller representative group.

.

Traymark don't forget that NYer was one of the minions tasked by Little, Gless and Gillespie to sell the Association on Social Media pages with the promise (setup) of being the new TWU ATD Information man with a cozy little adjustment for himself laid out in Hurst Texas.

On a side note though to what you're getting at, should the IAM have just stepped aside because LAA TWU has more members? IMO NO. Unionists shouldn't fight with each other and certainly shouldn't be bullies to each other either.

 

[NYer]

NYer,

You do understand that the NMB representative has ZERO, nada, none, zilch, no authority in these negotiations. She can agree untill the cows come home, but that doesn't mean that the Association or the NC have to do anything she suggests. In fact, they can ask her to leave the room and go pound sand. So the company can get to a point where they do exactly as you say, but on the table it will remain until the negotiating committee thinks it worth reading and picks it up.

Absolutely. No direct authority, but they certainly have a large amount of influence.

Consider this: The NMB representative is there to observe and make suggestions in the current negotiations. If her insight is ignored, as it could be, and we don't get to a deal then the next step would be to go into Section 6 negotiations in 2018. At that point, do you believe the NMB will be sympathetic to the unions or the Company?

I'd suggest, the NMB is there to offer insight that a deal in this process could have a better outcome than trying to get a deal in the mediation process.

Her being there could push the IAM to accept what they would ordinarily not accept, such as a change in their medical. If the IAM or Association play the waiting game, then it will be made evident their participation in the current process could be more fruitful than having to face the same changes but with their backs against the wall.

 

[pjirish317]

Do you really need to ask where the bitterness comes from, especially if you are LAA? And before you comment, I'm Fleet Service LAA and never involved in any AMFA drive or any other union replacement efforts.

AANOTOK,
I am LUS Fleet Service, so I am asking honestly. And I am not sure if Traymark is Fleet Service or MTC, that in itself would explain alot.

 

[pjirish317]

LUS Pilots and FA's unions did not get that memo NYer, they stepped aside as they should have being the smaller representative group.



See above.

Just because a group is smaller, doesn't mean they should "automatically" step aside. So again, WHY should have the IAM stepped aside other than being the "smaller represented group"? What is your reasoning other than the aforementioned? Who are you to decide who steps aside and for what reasons? Do you have some sort of sense of entitlement because you think this way? Being bigger doesn't always mean being better. I choose to think that the Association is a good thing, and that the TWU and the IAM should work together instead of against each other. Only time will tell if this will work out. So far I believe it has. But then again, in my opinion, you sound like a person that would sell out his fellow co-workers as long as you got yours. Just so I am clear are you Fleet or MTC?

 

[pjirish317]

Absolutely. No direct authority, but they certainly have a large amount of influence.

Consider this: The NMB representative is there to observe and make suggestions in the current negotiations. If her insight is ignored, as it could be, and we don't get to a deal then the next step would be to go into Section 6 negotiations in 2018. At that point, do you believe the NMB will be sympathetic to the unions or the Company?

I'd suggest, the NMB is there to offer insight that a deal in this process could have a better outcome than trying to get a deal in the mediation process.

Her being there could push the IAM to accept what they would ordinarily not accept, such as a change in their medical. If the IAM or Association play the waiting game, then it will be made evident their participation in the current process could be more fruitful than having to face the same changes but with their backs against the wall.

NYer,

If we are stalled long enough to go into Section 6, in my opinion, each side should negotiate their CBA's seperately. Thus putting more pressure on the company to get a JCBA done. So I disagree with your statement, additionally the NMB is supposed to be neutral, not favoring either side, so in my opinion, that is irrevelant. And you do understand, that when section 6 negotiations do start, you are not autmatically put into mediation. That has to happen when both sides declare an impass. So why not play the waiting game. Why wouldn't LAA want the LUS medical plan? Or the LUS scope. Or, and I am not familiar with your CBA, but I am sure there is language that is superior to ours in certain area's. So why are we just "accepting an offer just to get it done"? We should hold out for the very best, or at the very least, something that is not concessionary in any way. Why are you just rolling over about the medical? Both sides could gain more leverage by threatening to go into section 6 seperately.

 

[Traymark]

On a side note though to what you're getting at, should the IAM have just stepped aside because LAA TWU has more members?

Seemed to have worked out pretty well for the Pilots and FA's.
They got theirs in 4 short months and then got $900 million more after Parker initially said no,
and the Association members, butkis.

Just because a group is smaller, doesn't mean they should "automatically" step aside. So again, WHY should have the IAM stepped aside other than being the "smaller represented group"?

See above.

I am an AMT and I don't know why that matters.
Bad representation is bad representation.

 

[NYer]

LUS Pilots and FA's unions did not get that memo NYer, they stepped aside as they should have being the smaller representative group.



See above.

They didn't step aside simply because they were the smaller groups. Both the APA and APFA had a total of substantially more than 50% of the combined LAA and LUS represented groups. It would have taken a monumental card drive for the smaller unions to reach the 50% show of interest to be considered by the NMB in their certification.

In the case of the TWU and IAM, the Machinist had a reachable number to gain that 50% threshold and they had already started a card drive by the time the Association agreement was signed.

 

[Traymark]

In the case of the TWU and IAM, the Machinist had a reachable number to gain that 50% threshold and they had already started a card drive by the time the Association agreement was signed.

Calling BS on that right here. No way would the IAM have reached 50% and you know it.

And with the first part of your post, you make my point exactly why the IAM should have stepped aside.

 

[WeAAsles]

NYer,

If we are stalled long enough to go into Section 6, in my opinion, each side should negotiate their CBA's seperately. Thus putting more pressure on the company to get a JCBA done. So I disagree with your statement, additionally the NMB is supposed to be neutral, not favoring either side, so in my opinion, that is irrevelant. And you do understand, that when section 6 negotiations do start, you are not autmatically put into mediation. That has to happen when both sides declare an impass. So why not play the waiting game. Why wouldn't LAA want the LUS medical plan? Or the LUS scope. Or, and I am not familiar with your CBA, but I am sure there is language that is superior to ours in certain area's. So why are we just "accepting an offer just to get it done"? We should hold out for the very best, or at the very least, something that is not concessionary in any way. Why are you just rolling over about the medical? Both sides could gain more leverage by threatening to go into section 6 seperately.

For some reason that I honestly do continue to scratch my head about, NYer and other LAA guys on Social Media seem to want to go out of their way to concede to the idea of continuing to pay a much higher cost for Medical than you currently do? It's weird as all get out IMO.

It's almost as if it's a contest of some sorts in them wanting to see you (and in turn themselves) get scre#ed?