Is Slot Swap in Jeopardy

[signals]

Congratulations WorldTraveler, you have done what nobody else has been able to do. You helped me despise Delta more than I ever could US. If you're trying to send customers to WN, well Mission Accomplished!

Logic tells me that WN...and the ones you fail to mention, B6 and Virgin...have a legitimate gripe.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Congratulations WorldTraveler, you have done what nobody else has been able to do. You helped me despise Delta more than I ever could US. If you're trying to send customers to WN, well Mission Accomplished!

Logic tells me that WN...and the ones you fail to mention, B6 and Virgin...have a legitimate gripe.

I am SO sorry if your view of anything in life is shaped by the fact that you can't convince everyone that you are right.... I don't think most people or companies care if you don't like them if your reason for like or dislike depended on you being right about something which didn't a basis in reality to begin with.
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You can't seem to grasp that slots belong to the slot holders - that is the way aviation is practiced. No country has yet to tell an airline that they have to forfeit slots that some other carrier wants as long as the original carrier is using them.
That is just the way the system works.
Slot trading differs by country but in the US it is legal. The US government only acted because they feel it is their responsibility to protect consumers. When DL and US started a lawsuit challenging the US' ability to economically regulate slots as the FAA/DOT demanded more slots than DL/US were willing to give up, lo and behold the Feds came back to the table and a deal was reached.
You see, apparently, the Feds fear that they might be proven wrong in court and they could lose ALL ability to regulate slot controls... so everyone involved came to an agreement and except for you the deal is all but done.
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Since you don't seem to be able to accept these concepts, you can stay mad.
The market will move on.

 

[BoeingBoy]

WT, you're definitely wrong about one thing. Slots are not like paperclips, tugs, even airplanes - the sole and unrestricted property of the carriers that hold them. The government creates them, and the government can restrict them. Even to taking them back from the carriers using them and giving them to another carrier or carriers. It's happened before and could happen again. Why do you think that DL and US didn't pursue the legal path? Surely it would be an even better deal for them if they didn't have to divest any slots at all...

Jim

 

[WorldTraveler]

Jim,
glad you weighed in...
I am only saying that slots both by US and international practice are treated as belonging to the slot holder.
Yes, the government and/or airport operators of the US and other countries w/ a respect for property rights have revoked or reduced slots for any number of reasons based on the operation.
However, you can correct me if you know differently, but I don't believe the US has ever withdrawn slots from one slot carrier and reallocated them to another solely for economic reasons.
The whole basis of the DL/US lawsuit was that the FAA/DOT doesn't have the legal right to regulate slots for economic reasons... they could well say that they are revoking 10% of the slots in the NYC to improve congestion but they have not ever succeeded in codifying that they have the right to reallocate slots for the purposes of increasing competition or bringing in carriers that are more likely to discount.
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One of the major reasons why the European flag carriers do so much better financially than their US flags is that their primary hub airports have very little low fare competition; the slots were already nearly fully used by traditional full service carriers by the time the low fare carriers started to grow; thus the low fare carriers in Europe largely operate out of smaller, less convenient regional airports.
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The US has tried very hard - and I think it is fair - to not allow US airports to become segregated by type of carrier; any carrier should be able to serve any airport.
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The whole reason neither the US or DL/US want to really go forward w/ the slot deal is because there are a host of legal issues that would have to be decided in order for either to "win"...it is easier for all involved to continue to operate in the gray area in which slot controls operate, including having DL and US give up some slots, even if it is to US, than for either party to find out their position is wrong.
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Chances are quite strong that the US could not succeed in imposing regulations that give them the ability to reassign slots based on their desire to foster competition; that would likely be contrary to international aviation agreements and NYC is a key role in those agreements.
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As much as some people don't want to accept it, slot controls are one of the few structural advantages that network carriers have over low fare carriers. WN and other low fare carriers will obviously fight to get whatever they can but they know full well that they are not likely going to overturn the entire system to their benefit... but that doesn't mean they will stop fighting.
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For all the talk about how disadvantaged the low fare carriers are, nearly all of the slot exemptions at DCA have gone to low fare carriers or in markets where network carriers have had to add service; the feds do not have the authority to create new slots at the NYC airports in order to increase competition but they can at DCA.
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Let's also remember that B6 was created by convincing lawmakers of the need to create a bunch of slot exemptions; B6 is the 2nd largest slot holder at JFK now and the largest passenger carrier there. WN is now or very soon will be the 3rd largest carrier at EWR and possibly #2 without spending a cent but solely by complaining about limited access to NYC. At LGA, WN has had to spend some money both for TZ's assets and now to increase their slot holdings as a result of the DL/US slot deal. But here too they will end up as a solid #3. There isn't a single US carrier that has been blocked out of the DCA or NYC markets because of the slot system there and the two largest low fare carriers, B6 and WN both have benefitted from slot "gifts". I also think it is very likely that the whole block of 8 slot requirement was put in place specifically to aid B6 and WN since they are probably the only two that could come up w/ enough money and routes to use the slots on.
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It is also noteworthy, Jim, that the US is requiring that the slot rentals are between the bidding carrier and DL/US. If the US was really confident that they could legally confiscate the slots to be reallocated to someone else, they would not be requiring the slots to be leased from DL/US.
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The entire slot system is not fair either in the US or at other airports worldwide. But the US government and DL/US are apparently willing to leave sleeping dogs lie instead of challenging many of the legal aspects of the system. For this reason, DL and US made a calculated effort to improve their operations by swapping assets neither could use as well as the other and they WILL gain strategic advantages overly other carriers - network and low fare carrier - because of it.

 

[signals]

I am SO sorry if your view of anything in life is shaped by the fact that you can't convince everyone that you are right.... I don't think most people or companies care if you don't like them if your reason for like or dislike depended on you being right about something which didn't a basis in reality to begin with.
.
You can't seem to grasp that slots belong to the slot holders - that is the way aviation is practiced. No country has yet to tell an airline that they have to forfeit slots that some other carrier wants as long as the original carrier is using them.
That is just the way the system works.
Slot trading differs by country but in the US it is legal. The US government only acted because they feel it is their responsibility to protect consumers. When DL and US started a lawsuit challenging the US' ability to economically regulate slots as the FAA/DOT demanded more slots than DL/US were willing to give up, lo and behold the Feds came back to the table and a deal was reached.
You see, apparently, the Feds fear that they might be proven wrong in court and they could lose ALL ability to regulate slot controls... so everyone involved came to an agreement and except for you the deal is all but done.
.
Since you don't seem to be able to accept these concepts, you can stay mad.
The market will move on.

Awwww. I am sooo humiliated that I go by what I read and don't have an insider view. Again, I couldn't care less on any outcome. I won't get richer either way. Mad? At what? Again your own delusional view.

It will be interesting to see how this whole WN thing turns out, from the coming to Datlanta and this whole slot swap. I find it amusing that Delta will live in peaceful coexistance with LUV, yet Delta was able to show B6 the door back to NYC! Must be the blue thingy. Or maybe it's the Yankee factor Unlike WN that is from the great southern state of Texas. And even I know that things are bigger in Texas!

So WN announces service from Datlanta to Phoenix and Las Vegas even before it lands. My guess is that Delta is still OK with that after all you will peacefully coexist. Either way, I hope you grasp the idea that I couldn't care less. But your continuing spins will justify the outcome, I'm sure.

Oh, btw, tWiT, a chain is as strong as its weakest link,so forget me, but airline insiders on these boards have found flaw in your many diatribes. In the end the outcome remains to be seen, and words are meaningless until the facts come out.

Now go ahead and show everybody how much more you know than someone who reads the paper.