US Airways May File Papers in Weeks on Delta NYC-Washington Swap

[dash8roa]

Jim,
the definition of "couple" has been dramatically redefined in recent years so I wouldn't get real excited about trying to mark off two exact weeks, esp. since DL's execs yesterday said they expect a deal to be announced within days or weeks at most.
The bottom line is that both DL and US are apparently willing to agree to a slot trade that is not as onerous as the DOT and FAA originally demanded and that allows DL and US to further concentrate their services at LGA and DCA respectively, and use the slots at both of those airports more efficiently. Removing a bunch of turboprops from NYC airspace is bound to help congestion in the NYC area alone.
This alone will help move more passengers through lga,35 seat props don't belong at a high volume airport like lga which is runway constrained.

 

[USA320Pilot]

In my opinion, in principal the deal is done and the parties are awaiting final legal reviews and approvals.

 

[Beancounter]

I read somewhere that USAPA was against the slot trade. Why would they be against the trade when it appears to be beneficial to both airlines? What am I missing about the swap?

About STAR, I hope US Airways is able to stay in the alliance even if we are the red headed stepchild. Does Continental or United have a lot of coverage for the business travel up and down the east coast? I remember meeting an individual who was a high end business traveler, mostly east coast with some travel to SFO. He said US Airways was his airline of choice. It really surprised me.

 

[Beancounter]

In my opinion, in principal the deal is done and the parties are awaiting final legal reviews and approvals.

I agree.

Off subject question: How do you like flying the Airbus? I'm on the 737/EFIS, before that a metroliner that didn't even have an autopilot. I've only flown one aircraft with a lot of glass, a Falcon 2000.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Does Continental or United have a lot of coverage for the business travel up and down the east coast?

To a degree with IAD and EWR, but they lack a southeast hub. Anyone wanting to go from say SAV to MEM, for example, pays a premium in travel time to use either. Likewise, AA's MIA hub is great for connections to/from Latin/S America, but is definitely non-competitive for that SAV-MEM passenger. Of course, SkyTeam's DL hub in ATL gives them a southeast hub.

So *A is probably the best place for US to be since there's little hub competition with UA/CO except for IAD/EWR/PHL. OneWorld would probably be the next best, again with PHL being the only real competing hub for what AA already has. SkyTeam would probably be the worst alternative because of CLT/ATL, PHL/NYC, PHX/SLC competition.

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

Didn’t Congress introduce more slots in LGA(RJ's) and create more ATC mess

Airlines are free to provide service when and where demand exists, without having to seek permission the removeal of government intervention happen in 1978
There are, of course, serious problems remaining. But these problems stem from too much reliance on market forces and a obsolescent antiquated atc system.Congress authorized in 1998 for the dot to grant more slots at LaGuardia and set demands to routes and type of service the slots would be used for.Rules that limit long-haul flights to and from LGA were first introduced by the Civil Aeronautics Board (CAB)
So are the airlines regulated or not

So why are airlines regulated on routes in DCA LGA if deregulated disallow
I know, I know… grey area “almost” horse shoes

Are you saying the airport facility or safety issue at DCA LGA are in involved

The slots UA/CO "gave up" at EWR are leased, not sold. It's entirely possible that they will regain direct control/use of those slots at some point in the future.

There are several very different things that are being confused in this thread.

Deregulation eliminated domestic route authority and domestic fare restrictions.

Slotting is a congestion (and thereby safety and ATC) issue and was not affected by the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978.

There are only four "slot controlled" airports in the United States: New York La Guardia (LGA,) New York Kennedy (JFK,) Washington Reagan National (DCA,) and Chicago O'Hare (ORD.)

Newark Liberty is NOT slot controlled. If CO was horse trading anything there, it was probably gate space as there are no slots there to trade.

Here's a nice article that covers the topic. Be sure to scroll down to the section on "Slot-Controlled Airports" where this is spelled out.

The Fare Skies

 

[USA320Pilot]

Beancounter,

I love the Airbus. It's a great machine.

USA320Pilot

 

[FWAAA]

There are only four "slot controlled" airports in the United States: New York La Guardia (LGA,) New York Kennedy (JFK,) Washington Reagan National (DCA,) and Chicago O'Hare (ORD.)

Newark Liberty is NOT slot controlled. If CO was horse trading anything there, it was probably gate space as there are no slots there to trade.

Actually, of the four airports on your list, only one remains slot-controlled by law, and that's DCA. The slot controls at LGA, JFK and ORD were lifted nearly 10 years ago (IIRC). Soon after, of course, hundreds of new flights were added and congestion was worse than ever. That emboldened the FAA to institute some emergency departure/arrival limitations at LGA, JFK and ORD during certain hours of the day. Because of congestion at EWR caused by CO's insistence on running a true connecting hub there and the effect that has on NYC airspace, EWR was included as well.

I think that the ORD traffic management program was allowed to expire a couple summers ago as congestion there has fallen off with the new runways and the recession (both UA and AA slashed schedules at ORD). The NYC controls remain, however.

WN obtained some departure/arrival authorizations from CO/UA as a part of the CO-UA merger approval. They aren't "slots," but they might as well be slots.

 

[john john]

Deregulation eliminated domestic route authority and domestic fare restrictions.

The US Airways Delta NYC-Washington Swap has a lot to due with the Rules that limit long-haul flights to and from LGA and DCA that were first introduced by the Civil Aeronautics Board (CAB)

 

[BoeingBoy]

The US Airways Delta NYC-Washington Swap has a lot to due with the Rules that limit long-haul flights to and from LGA and DCA that were first introduced by the Civil Aeronautics Board (CAB)

Not directly - US and DL would like to swap whatever happens to the perimeter rules at the two airports. But they are both lobbying for the perimeter rule relaxed or eliminated either of which would increase the number of beyond perimeter flights. IIRC, the talk about relaxing the perimeter rule at DCA centered on allowing carriers to convert existing within perimeter slots to beyond perimeter slots with a limit on the total number of such changes.

Jim

 

[redheadtempe33]

To be quite honest, it is not from a document, but from conversations with executives at both Star Alliance and other Star member airlines. I asked a number of pointed questions, and received some surprising answers...

There are minimum service levels and standards which must be adhered to...it is doubtful that these are public documents, but I have heard from more than one source that US does not measure favorably compared to other members.

My main point in the statement is that absent any agreement made between Parker and the Star Alliance with regard to US staying for 5 years in order to admit CO (which to me is now a moot point), I think US needs Star much more than vice versa...

Not to call out any certain individuals, but there are no "standards" to belong to the Star Alliance. See the NY Times article on Air India to see that. The *A will (and does) take everyone and anybody. The more airlines (regardless of their quality) the more valuable the alliance. The lack of "documents" show that. I'll be the first to admit that US does not measure up to many, but do not spread BS that the *A is contemplating kicking US out. They don't care one way or the other.

 

[Art at ISP]

Not to call out any certain individuals, but there are no "standards" to belong to the Star Alliance. See the NY Times article on Air India to see that. The *A will (and does) take everyone and anybody. The more airlines (regardless of their quality) the more valuable the alliance. The lack of "documents" show that. I'll be the first to admit that US does not measure up to many, but do not spread BS that the *A is contemplating kicking US out. They don't care one way or the other.

Based on my conversations with senior management of Star and other organizations last year in Frankfurt, there are or were indeed standards, and I know for a fact that US was on shaky ground for a while. I am not spreading BS, at the time it was a fact.

Not looking for a pi**ing contest.....I know what I heard Red...

 

[redheadtempe33]

Based on my conversations with senior management of Star and other organizations last year in Frankfurt, there are or were indeed standards, and I know for a fact that US was on shaky ground for a while. I am not spreading BS, at the time it was a fact.

Not looking for a pi**ing contest.....I know what I heard Red...

I'm not doubting what they may have said to you Art. I'm still stating that they, at best, were exaggerating and were simply telling you what you wanted to hear. If you look at the members of *A they range from mediocre to outstanding. The only standards they have are IT ones (which, I'll be the first to admit, US could improve upon - online partner bookings, updgrades, etc.) but there are no "service" standards. US can interline and codeshare - and that is all they "need" to do to stay in if they wish.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Based on my conversations with senior management of Star and other organizations last year in Frankfurt, there are or were indeed standards, and I know for a fact that US was on shaky ground for a while. I am not spreading BS, at the time it was a fact.

Not looking for a pi**ing contest.....I know what I heard Red...

And I know who he heard it from. No disrespect but I'll take Art's version based solely upon the fact I know the level at which it came from within Star. The person in question is way way way above your pay grade.

I'm sure you believe what you were told by the Liars at Rio Salada, but that's why they're known for a lack of credibility with anyone not on Wall Street. Hey at least they're consistent.

 

[usa1]

If this passes, does anyone have any idea when these slots would be transferred. Many east-coast cities will be losing 5 or 6 flights per day. This will impact their staffing dramatically? Can you say ... L-A-Y-O-F-F-S. :huh: