How many posts does it take to get to the Delta rules while American drools?
I dont know maybe we could go ask Mr Owl.
Ask Mr Owl
I dont know maybe we could go ask Mr Owl.
Ask Mr Owl
AA JFK Cargo
- Thread starter Hopeful
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WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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except I never posted anything here that says that AA is inferior to DL...
In response to an article that noted that AA cargo is the largest at JFK - wihch apparently you all had no problem in touting - I made a comparison of how AA, DL, and UA's cargo operations compare relative to the size of their passenger operations.
I honestly expected based on my own perceptions that AA was a strong cargo airline to find that they were indeed considerably larger than DL which operates a large fleet of 767s, heavily flying to secondary cities which I would have thought don't generate the levels of cargo that larger cities like LHR and GRU serve largely with 777s.
The data says that UA is considerably stronger in cargo than either AA or DL apparently due to UA's larger presence in China/HKG.... but it also says that AA is only slightly larger in cargo than DL relative to the size of its passenger operation.
And that seems to say that the 767 is not necessarily an inferior cargo aircraft - just smaller.
Now, tell me how those comparisons make AA inferior or DL superior, particularly when it was noted from the first post I made in this thread that UA was a larger cargo carrier than DL?
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And tell me why you find it so threatening to compare AA to ANYONE? If you understand the business and the players involved in it, then you shouldn't be afraid to compare AA to anyone else. If the data says that AA is indeed stronger, then so be it....if it is says AA is on par with other carriers, then so be it.... and if it says then AA is weaker than other carriers, then figure out why.
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Being unable to engage in a discussion that brings up any basis of comparison demonstrates your immaturity, not mine.
And by all means, if you don't want to engage in a comparison, then don't post articles such as the one cited here that indeed make a comparison between AA and other carriers.
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And I too wonder how cities like ELP etc generate more cargo than larger cities... esp. since they don't have widebody service. I know many airlines accept cargo at one city and then truck it to a gateway which does have widebody service... if that is the case, then the numbers for a lot of cities are skewed because cargo data is provided by the airports who I presume can't count cargo that is trucked in or out... but I may be wrong.
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Luxury Liner,
is this the case - and can you list the types of commodities that ELP and TUS generate (it's honestly not confidential information)... other carriers know it already?
And what are AA's largest cargo cities, and more specifically the largest cargo routes....? perhaps even from JFK.
In response to an article that noted that AA cargo is the largest at JFK - wihch apparently you all had no problem in touting - I made a comparison of how AA, DL, and UA's cargo operations compare relative to the size of their passenger operations.
I honestly expected based on my own perceptions that AA was a strong cargo airline to find that they were indeed considerably larger than DL which operates a large fleet of 767s, heavily flying to secondary cities which I would have thought don't generate the levels of cargo that larger cities like LHR and GRU serve largely with 777s.
The data says that UA is considerably stronger in cargo than either AA or DL apparently due to UA's larger presence in China/HKG.... but it also says that AA is only slightly larger in cargo than DL relative to the size of its passenger operation.
And that seems to say that the 767 is not necessarily an inferior cargo aircraft - just smaller.
Now, tell me how those comparisons make AA inferior or DL superior, particularly when it was noted from the first post I made in this thread that UA was a larger cargo carrier than DL?
.
And tell me why you find it so threatening to compare AA to ANYONE? If you understand the business and the players involved in it, then you shouldn't be afraid to compare AA to anyone else. If the data says that AA is indeed stronger, then so be it....if it is says AA is on par with other carriers, then so be it.... and if it says then AA is weaker than other carriers, then figure out why.
.
Being unable to engage in a discussion that brings up any basis of comparison demonstrates your immaturity, not mine.
And by all means, if you don't want to engage in a comparison, then don't post articles such as the one cited here that indeed make a comparison between AA and other carriers.
.
And I too wonder how cities like ELP etc generate more cargo than larger cities... esp. since they don't have widebody service. I know many airlines accept cargo at one city and then truck it to a gateway which does have widebody service... if that is the case, then the numbers for a lot of cities are skewed because cargo data is provided by the airports who I presume can't count cargo that is trucked in or out... but I may be wrong.
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Luxury Liner,
is this the case - and can you list the types of commodities that ELP and TUS generate (it's honestly not confidential information)... other carriers know it already?
And what are AA's largest cargo cities, and more specifically the largest cargo routes....? perhaps even from JFK.
LuxuryLiner
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It's PPS or Priority Parcel Service. Over the counter express shipments, done ether at the ticket counter or at the cargo office. Im not exactly sure what ELP and TUS ship or recieve, but I read somewhere that in ELP it has to do with auto parts coming up from mexico, and TUS is human body parts for medical research at the college. PPS is high revenue stuff.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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makes a lot of sense... so are these then carried on AA flights out of these cities or trucked to DFW?
Each of the carriers makes alot of money on their priority parcel type services.... and of course it is not containerized cargo so it can work even on RJs and throughout their whole network...
presumably though AA's use of mainline aircraft at these citeis in the southwestconnected to the DFW hub makes it alot easier to win large volumes of this type of business. .
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any insight into AA's cargo strengths at JFK... or perhaps specifically what percentage of AA cargo at JFK is to/from LHR and on the transcons since AA has a capacity advantage in both markets relative to its peers?
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thanks, Liner. 🙂
WorldTraveler
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AA, DL and UA have all reported their May 2011 traffic stats and for whatever reason, UA's cargo decreased by 18% for the month which is a steep acceleration of the reductions in cargo carried already this year. We'll have to see if this trend continues in future months - and if UA explains it.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/United-Continental-Holdings-prnews-2512233273.html?x=0&.v=1
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/United-Continental-Holdings-prnews-2512233273.html?x=0&.v=1
whatkindoffreshhell
Veteran
Historically AA has always been the best US-based airline at managing their cargo. AA treated cargo as a business (similar to LH) not simply gravy revenue.
And yes the above statement includes the former NW. Although NW was unique and a close second just because they had freighters.
DL since Neel Shah took charge has vastly improved. And raised their rates too high compared to the competition. But if the value is there -- voila!
UA will return because of Robbie Anderson and their superior route network. How far they return will depend upon how much of the CO culture fiters down to the soldiers-on-the-ground. So far the results are disappointing because the UA attitude is prevailing.
WN does narrow-body freight very well as expected. No overpromises and rare service failures. Fair price for service.
US is simply indifferent about cargo. If it moves it then good and if not oh well....
B6 and the rest of the bunch (except AS) are not players in the cargo market.
The really smart foreign cargo airlines are interesting models.
And yes the above statement includes the former NW. Although NW was unique and a close second just because they had freighters.
DL since Neel Shah took charge has vastly improved. And raised their rates too high compared to the competition. But if the value is there -- voila!
UA will return because of Robbie Anderson and their superior route network. How far they return will depend upon how much of the CO culture fiters down to the soldiers-on-the-ground. So far the results are disappointing because the UA attitude is prevailing.
WN does narrow-body freight very well as expected. No overpromises and rare service failures. Fair price for service.
US is simply indifferent about cargo. If it moves it then good and if not oh well....
B6 and the rest of the bunch (except AS) are not players in the cargo market.
The really smart foreign cargo airlines are interesting models.
WorldTraveler
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a good, appreciate, and accurate assessment.
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I agree that AA has historically put a high value on cargo and reaped a premium for it. Given that AA has a smaller overall network including to cargo rich Asia than DL or UA, they don't carry what DL and UA do... offset by the value and volume of Latin cargo.
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NW probably could have done better with cargo if they had used newer aircraft... 742s can't compete with more efficient freight producers who are willing to buy newer aircraft.... DL obviously decided it wasn't worth investing in a dedicated freighter business.
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I believe AA and UA both used dedicated freighters - correct we if I am wrong.
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The 773ERs will go a very long ways to expanding AA's cargo capacity... IIRC they have more underfloor capacity than a 744 despite carrying fewer people.
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I still am not sure why UA cargo took such a dip... much steeper than its drop in capacity. Possibly merger related - UA/CO cargo numbers have dipped a few percent in recent months... perhaps related to decreased purchases from China where UA is strongest among US carriers....
DL may be raising rates but its cargo volume continues to show increases... perhaps they are still reaping benefits from the integrated network and from developing freighter traffic on DL's network to Asia esp. from DTW using the 772ER (which is still a good freighter aircraft) and S. America where DL is adding longhaul capacity.
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connecting other threads here, it is possible that a deepened B6/AA relationship could increaes freight traffic at JFK even further.
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I agree that AA has historically put a high value on cargo and reaped a premium for it. Given that AA has a smaller overall network including to cargo rich Asia than DL or UA, they don't carry what DL and UA do... offset by the value and volume of Latin cargo.
.
NW probably could have done better with cargo if they had used newer aircraft... 742s can't compete with more efficient freight producers who are willing to buy newer aircraft.... DL obviously decided it wasn't worth investing in a dedicated freighter business.
.
I believe AA and UA both used dedicated freighters - correct we if I am wrong.
.
The 773ERs will go a very long ways to expanding AA's cargo capacity... IIRC they have more underfloor capacity than a 744 despite carrying fewer people.
.
I still am not sure why UA cargo took such a dip... much steeper than its drop in capacity. Possibly merger related - UA/CO cargo numbers have dipped a few percent in recent months... perhaps related to decreased purchases from China where UA is strongest among US carriers....
DL may be raising rates but its cargo volume continues to show increases... perhaps they are still reaping benefits from the integrated network and from developing freighter traffic on DL's network to Asia esp. from DTW using the 772ER (which is still a good freighter aircraft) and S. America where DL is adding longhaul capacity.
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connecting other threads here, it is possible that a deepened B6/AA relationship could increaes freight traffic at JFK even further.
I have to assume that it's partially related to a steep drop in auto parts shipments from Japan due to the earthquake/tsunami. Some Ford and GM plants in the USA have suffered production delays due to shortages in parts manufactured in Japan by Toyota and other manufacturers. My guess is that UA carried many of those parts (small and high-value).
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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reasonably decent explanation.. forgive me for making a comparison, but why is DL's cargo UP and it is a larger airline in Japan?
whatkindoffreshhell
Veteran
Because DL's cargo sales force (and additional lanes) offer new attitudes and options. DL is operating 777 service from their secret weapon DTW.
(UA take note here...) The old UA focused on regular ULD traffic. CO wanted it all and maintained a professional cargo team to obtain ALL the freight. UA outsourced to know-nothing GSA clerks during Tilton's shenanigans to pump up the quarterly numbers.
NW was the only USA-based combination carrier to offer dedicated freighters. A few years ago UA wet-leased a DC10 freighter but never supported it.
AA never operated dedicated freighters to the best of my knowledge.
AA operated dedicated 707 freighters until 1981 and dedicated 747 freighters until 1984.
