Industrial vs. Craft

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After the twu decimated the mechanic class & craft, and the ibt decimated the trucking industry, why would anybody even think about these type of unions to represent them????
 
riceweevil said:
Hey, Raptorman49, did you hear something? I think it might have been an amfa knat buzzing around.
Click to expand...

What about you riceweevil, do you have it within you to grasp the below information and discuss the issues like and adult human being?

ORIGINS OF A FREE MARKET BREAKDOWN

The traditional goal of a labor union is to obtain above market wages by creating,
and withholding, a monopoly of the available labor. Ironically, aviation technicians have
been kept below market wages by their own labor unions. For sixty years, aviation
technicians have been represented by labor unions that are dominated by an unskilled
majority. As a consequence, hourly wage rates for baggage handlers currently top out at
over $19, within a few dollars of the technicians who repair jet engines. The political
power of the unskilled majority demanded an averaging of wages irrespective of the free
market value of the technicians’ skill. And the carriers allowed this to happen.
The eyes of technicians nationwide are on the AMFA/NWA contract because they
know that, if the pay inequities are not fixed here, no other labor union will address the
crisis. These unions are simply unwilling to alienate their respective unskilled majorities.
With or without a strike, aviation technicians will abandon their jobs en masse unless the
past disregard of the free market is remedied. The free market is correcting the belowmarket
wages of aviation technicians by transferring them to non-aviation industries
where they are more highly valued, but that “correction” involves the destruction of a
skilled craft to the enduring detriment of aviation safety

Lee Seham 2001 NWA/AMFA Presidential Emergency Board Hearing
 
TWU informer said:
Exactly what makes this a "good teamsters" video?
Let's take this discussion to the specifics of our problems, and get out of the childish playground and fear mongering all negative life of fortune telling that the whole world sucks today and in the future.

Can we?
Click to expand...

Its a good video because he makes it clear the Teamster drive is real & I believe him, not saying you should support the Teamsters but I think people continuing to chant conspiracy is silly, He's not going to write it in blood but he has written it down & made a video about it being real that's all the man can do, how would you feel if everyone was claiming the AMFA drive was fake so don't sign a card .... you wouldn't like it & neither do the Teamsters .... It's silly.
next the Teamster supporters probably will start claiming the AMFA drive is fake.

It's the masses at the base you have to convince Dave not the very few over Zealous guys that come here & have already made up their minds.
 
Raptorman49 said:
Its a good video because he makes it clear the Teamster drive is real & I believe him, not saying you should support the Teamsters but I think people continuing to chant conspiracy is silly, He's not going to write it in blood but he has written it down & made a video about it being real that's all the man can do, how would you feel if everyone was claiming the AMFA drive was fake so don't sign a card .... you wouldn't like it & neither do the Teamsters .... It's silly.
next the Teamster supporters probably will start claiming the AMFA drive is fake.

It's the masses at the base you have to convince Dave not the very few over Zealous guys that come here & have already made up their minds.
Click to expand...

Ok so it is a real Industrial Union card drive at AA.

All the more reason to start discussing what that really means,

What is your take on being in a 80,000 member Airline Division and your work group only being 18,000 of that 80,000?
Do you think that could be a negative issue?

Maybe you should watch this video:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0303298/plotsummary

It is a documentary covering The Teamster's Union going on strike against Overnite Transportation, a nationwide freight company that has resisted unionization. The Union, however, faces its own internecine battles as factions inside the organization, one led by James P. Hoffa (son of the infamous Jimmy Hoffa), vie for power.

The Teamsters promised these workers the same power and backing you are being promised. And then they were thrown under the bus. Not sure if it was a TWU bus, but under A bus none the less.
 
Informer, they cannot and will not have adult dialogue on this issue as this thread has proven. I relate these self serving industrial union supporters to children that yell nanapoopoo when they have nothing to say.

This was the whole point of starting this thread. To prove their self serving greedy agenda. And it has worked beautifully. They obviously do not care about advancing our profession. Raptor has said as much in countless quotes that he doesn't care, he only has a few more years left.
 
TWU informer said:
Ok so it is a real Industrial Union card drive at AA.

All the more reason to start discussing what that really means,

What is your take on being in a 80,000 member Airline Division and your work group only being 18,000 of that 80,000?
Do you think that could be a negative issue?
Click to expand...

Dave to be honest the International of any of the Unions doesn't bother me I think the Teamster Airline division is a separate division & should be fine also I think the most important area to worry about is at the Locals level, I rarely ever hear from the National in the TWU so there not much of a concern for me most of the time, If Members stick together like they do at the Line stations the Internationals will for the most part leave them alone to run their business, its the Members that are the real problem, they don't want to be involved or know about Unions they just want decent contracts so they can raise their families, that's the reason both are having a card drive now because were all upset about the contract, good luck getting the masses at the base to care about the details, most just want one last decent contract & then to bail out from what I'm hearing .... its not just me.
 
whoop whoop said:
Informer, they cannot and will not have adult dialogue on this issue as this thread has proven. I relate these self serving industrial union supporters to children that yell nanapoopoo when they have nothing to say.

This was the whole point of starting this thread. To prove their self serving greedy agenda. And it has worked beautifully. They obviously do not care about advancing our profession. Raptor has said as much in countless quotes that he doesn't care, he only has a few more years left.
Click to expand...

I agree if that was your point then yes you have succeeded in proving what we already knew.
That's why the Mechanics at United switched from AMFA they just wanted what was being promised so they could give more to their families & didn't care about democracy or All Mechanics in one union etc.
People are just trying to survive & raise their families they don't have time for grandiose Causes.
 
Raptorman49 said:
Dave to be honest the International of any of the Unions doesn't bother me I think the Teamster Airline division is a separate division & should be fine also I think the most important area to worry about is at the Locals level, I rarely ever hear from the National in the TWU so there not much of a concern for me most of the time, If Members stick together like they do at the Line stations the Internationals will for the most part leave them alone to run their business, its the Members that are the real problem, they don't want to be involved or know about Unions they just want decent contracts so they can raise their families, that's the reason both are having a card drive now because were all upset about the contract, good luck getting the masses at the base to care about the details, most just want one last decent contract & then to bail out from what I'm hearing .... its not just me.
Click to expand...

So on one hand the member's stick together, and on the other hand it's the members fault.
Can you begin to see the twisted logic and contradictions that you provide here?

It is as if you are not quite in touch with reality, and instead, when called out on mistakes like this, you just claim you don't care, you are anti-union, or just want to leave.

What I have seen from you, is that whatever it is that you think, want, and believe, you claim you hear everyone else claiming the same thing. but there is no proof of that.

Example what is your basis for this statement:
"most just want one last decent contract & then to bail out from what I'm hearing"

What I hear is a very divided group.
Some are afraid of being laid-off.
Some are afraid of becoming OSM's and getting a paycut.
Some just want to retire right now.
Some fear Judges ruling.
Some could care less what the Judge says, they want to take a stand and fight.

Now I could do as you do, and take the one of those that I fit into and claim that is what most want.
But that would be a lie.

What I want is to get out of Industrial Union representation.
Have a Mechanic and Related Union.
And then the Industrial Unions supporting us as workers that wanted our own union, instead of seeking revenge because the AMT group wants to belong to something other than socialized representation in a deregulated and highly competetive industry.

But I am not here claming that is what everyone else wants to justify that desire.
I want to get cards signed, have an election, and then we will know what "most want", instead of falsely claiming I know.
 
Raptorman49 said:
Its a good video because he makes it clear the Teamster drive is real & I believe him, not saying you should support the Teamsters but I think people continuing to chant conspiracy is silly, He's not going to write it in blood but he has written it down & made a video about it being real that's all the man can do, how would you feel if everyone was claiming the AMFA drive was fake so don't sign a card .... you wouldn't like it & neither do the Teamsters .... It's silly.
next the Teamster supporters probably will start claiming the AMFA drive is fake.

It's the masses at the base you have to convince Dave not the very few over Zealous guys that come here & have already made up their minds.
Click to expand...
TWU-Bus driver Union Teamsters-Truck Driver Union AMFA-AMT Union I made it easy to understand !
 
Raptorman49 said:
I agree if that was your point then yes you have succeeded in proving what we already knew.
That's why the Mechanics at United switched from AMFA they just wanted what was being promised so they could give more to their families & didn't care about democracy or All Mechanics in one union etc.
People are just trying to survive & raise their families they don't have time for grandiose Causes.
Click to expand...

Again, look at the facts that have been presented to you.

Those at UAL with lifetime recall rights were on the eligibility list according the National Mediation Board.
The Teamsters went door to door promising them their jobs and pensions back in return for support.
Just like you will recieve nothing being promised, they are still out of work and their pensions still belong to the PBGC some four years after the change of representation.

Can you see the difference between "wanting" what is promised, versus a track record of none of those promises being kept after dues collection begins?

Go with the Teamsters, and you will start paying 2.5 hours per month in dues instead of 2 hours pay, and your work group will be an even weaker minority than you already are in the current TWU ATD structure. Paying more per month to go backwards is a bad idea. Explain to me how does that get you one good contract so you can leave?

Anyone that is complaining and seeking change, but claims they don't care about the democracy of ALL Mechanics in one union, are either blind to the fact that this issue is at the root of the problem, or they actually do know that fact but are just plain stupid for not embracing the only solution available to correct it.
 
TWU informer said:
So on one hand the member's stick together, and on the other hand it's the members fault.
Can you begin to see the twisted logic and contradictions that you provide here?

It is as if you are not quite in touch with reality, and instead, when called out on mistakes like this, you just claim you don't care, you are anti-union, or just want to leave.

What I have seen from you, is that whatever it is that you think, want, and believe, you claim you hear everyone else claiming the same thing. but there is no proof of that.

Example what is your basis for this statement:
"most just want one last decent contract & then to bail out from what I'm hearing"

What I hear is a very divided group.
Some are afraid of being laid-off.
Some are afraid of becoming OSM's and getting a paycut.
Some just want to retire right now.
Some fear Judges ruling.
Some could care less what the Judge says, that want to fight.

Now I could as you do, and take the one of those that I fit into and claim that is what most want.
But that would be a lie.

What I want is to get out of Industrial Union representation.
Have a Mechanic and Related Union.
And then the Industrial Unions supporting us as workers that wanted our own union, instead of seeking revenge because the AMT group wants to belong to something other than socialized representation in a deregulated and highly competetive industry.

But I am not here claming that is what everyone else wants to justify that desire.
I want to get cards signed, have an election, and then we will know what more want, instead of falsely claiming I know.
Click to expand...

I'm in touch with reality your the one out of touch because you can't see that in Tulsa the Members will not stick together or learn about Unions or sign enough AMFA cards for their to be an Election, I get all that & you don't !!
A year from now when you still don't have enough cards & were stuck in a 6 year contract you still won't get it.
I don't need to prove anything Dave ..... ugh your really don't get it & never will.
Everything I said is true why do you think you can't get enough AMFA cards
Hundreds are retiring when this contract passes. 5 out of the 7 contracts did pass, I could go on and on it's not hard to see what is going on IF YOU OPEN YOUR EYES.
We have already established that YOU don't know Dave but I DO know, that's what you don't get !
Wake up & smell the coffee man.
 
TWU informer said:
Again, look at the facts that have been presented to you.

Those at UAL with lifetime recall rights were on the eligibility list according the National Mediation Board.
The Teamsters went door to door promising them their jobs and pensions back in return for support.
Just like you will recieve nothing being promised, they are still out of work and their pensions still belong to the PBGC some four years after the change of representation.

Can you see the difference between "wanting" what is promised, versus a track record of none of those promises being kept after dues collection begins?

Go with the Teamsters, and you will start paying 2.5 hours per month in dues instead of 2 hours pay, and your work group will be an even weaker minority than you already are in the current TWU ATD structure. Paying more per month to go backwards is a bad idea. Explain to me how does that get you one good contract so you can leave?

Anyone that is complaining and seeking change, but claims they don't care about the democracy of ALL Mechanics in one union, are either blind to the fact that this issue is at the root of the problem, or they actually do know that fact but are just plain stupid for not embracing the only solution available to correct it.
Click to expand...

Dave you just don't get it cause your a slow learner, We are not going to be in the Teamsters nor are we going to be in AMFA we are going to stay with the TWU because Mechanics are divided as we always have been, we were divided before the Teamster drive & will be after the Teamster drive, your wasting your time but I guess you too have a lot of free time to waste.
Knock yourself out on this drive Dave i'm not stopping you, i'm just killing time & Entertaining myself at your expense & you know it. B)
 
Raptorman49 said:
I'm in touch with reality your the one out of touch because you can't see that in Tulsa the Members will not stick together or learn about Unions or sign enough AMFA cards for their to be an Election, I get all that & you don't !!
A year from now when you still don't have enough cards & were stuck in a 6 year contract you still won't get it.
I don't need to prove anything Dave ..... ugh your really don't get it & never will.
Everything I said is true why do you think you can't get enough AMFA cards
Hundreds are retiring when this contract passes. 5 out of the 7 contracts did pass, I could go on and on it's not hard to see what is going on IF YOU OPEN YOUR EYES.
We have already established that YOU don't know Dave but I DO know, that's what you don't get !
Wake up & smell the coffee man.
Click to expand...

You have such a negative view of everything, I lean towards suggesting that you visit the Employee Assistance Program, and maybe they can help you view the world as it really is. We have a great life if you allow yourself to see it as it really is from the side of truth, instead allowing the enemy of evil to control your thoughts into a negative and worthless state of mind. That is not a personal attack, that is advice as a friend. You have such a negative view of all things, you should consider some assistance so as to not have to start taking mind damaging anti-depressants or benzo's the rest of your life. I say this not as an attack, but because close relatives I know exhibited the same type of behavior before I had to take them in for help involuntarily. Take this as advice from someone who cares, not as a personal slam or attack.


I post this for you my friend


Sorry for the digression,
now back to the issue

We started this card drive about 8 weeks ago, we have a record number of signed cards in the time frame, and all you can do is try to claim that the whole world sucks, nobody supports AMFA, and that we cannot succeed.

Your beloved Teamsters do not share your view, they are raiding the TWU, but are engaged in a campaign against craft unionism. Just go watch the Bourne video again and listen to what Appointee Bourne is saying. The Teamsters are not campaigning against the TWU, and the TWU is not campaigning against the Teamsters. Anyone using simple logic can conclude that both the TWU and the Teamsters do not currently share your pathetic and negative view. If they did, their campaign would not be directed at us, but instead each other. Is that hard to grasp, or can you see what I mean?
 
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