Industrial vs. Craft

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Since I was appointed by AMFA wannabe’s on this board as the IBT cheerleader, what the hell, I’ll give it a shot. I am no expert however and have been a Teamster only a fraction of the time as whoop whoop, but I was easily able to come up with a list of positive things about my Union. Most of this info was easily found at http://www.teamster.org

1. Teamsters have a completely democratic process starting with its International General President. Every member has a chance to decide our leadership and direction by voting from the initial nominations chosen by elected delegates, all the way to the final election process. Ballots are sent to each and every Teamster member. The Teamsters General Executive Board is voted on by the membership every five years. One member, one vote!

2. Local Officers are also elected within the Teamsters. Business agents in some Locals are elected as part of the executive committee, and at other Locals the most experienced and qualified are hired by the elected Principal Officer. This ensures the best person for the job and all the positions are held to high membership standards. If a BA does not meet the minimum expectations of the membership and the principal officer, said BA is gone. Proof is at UAL in SFO.

3. IBT executive board members and principal officers come from many areas of labor. The all bring their unique expertise and professional experience. Many of the Local Presidents are business professionals, such as Pilots and Lawyers.

4. The pay and benefits for each Local Employed Officer and Business Agent is stated in each of the Locals By Laws and are available to each member.

5. Teamsters conduct private professional negotiations, with experienced negotiators. There is no circus act and the company does not know our hand by reading it on the web. Our negotiators are full time, and negotiate agreements on an ongoing basis. These negotiations are supplemented with the Business agents who are in direct contract with the members, and with the members themselves through elected or chosen negotiating team members. These members too are held to the highest Teamster standards. The negotiating team is responsible for accepting the company proposals, and the membership is allowed a vote. Our last contract at UAL, even though an large number of us hated our first proposal, at least the Teamsters had the decency to allow us to look at the companies beat offer and vote for ourselves.

6. IBT can hold and support a strike and picket line. We have a huge war chest in the international strike fund which has amounted to over several million dollars. In addition, many Locals have their own strike fund and this money is paid IN ADDITION TO the international funds. Having a strike fund sends a message to the Employer that your Union is ready to take on a fight should it be necessary. While the money may not match your regular pay check, the money paid is much more than you might think. See how much you can expect by going to http://www.teamster....to Teamster.org . NWA strikers received nothing ($0.00) financial support from their Union.

7. Teamsters employ in house professionals who are dedicated solely to the members. There is no conflict of interest. Teamsters have their own in house fully staffed Legal, Safety and health, Economics and Contracts, Training and Development, and a dozen other departments all willing able and ready to help members when needed. Go to http://www.teamster.org and under the About Us tab, click on Departments to find out more.

8. Teamsters get involved in every aspect needed to benefit the members. Teamsters members are able to enjoy unique discounts, disaster relief aid, retiree assistance, job banks, and many other Teamster member privileges. You can get assistance and aid for many types of real life issues as a member of the Teamsters. You can also get good rates on credit cards if that's your thing. Teamsters also created the Teamster Airline Maintenance Coalition to discuss those issues immediately important to all airline mechanics. This group looks at issues outside the contracts such as outsourcing or new emerging FAA policies. All other Unions were invited to participate in collectively speaking up for our profession. The association refuses to take part or help in this collective movement.

9. Teamsters have many concerns. To better the life of the A&P mechanic and related is one of those concerns. Teamsters fight to improve working conditions, pay and benefits, and job security. Teamsters work in the negotiating rooms, board rooms, and in the offices of law makers to ensure top working conditions, benefits, and pay for all members. It takes a combination of many different fights to gain what’s right. After all, the company is fighting us constantly using weapons like the bankruptcy courts. Teamster concerns have to be broad based in order to fight for the members.
Additionally Teamsters represent many other industries outside of Aircraft Maintenance.

In 2009 the Teamster represented Pilots of Amerijet went out on strike. With only 7 aircraft and the company had no problem finding replacement pilots (the real definition of scabs) to continue flying. The other Teamster professions quickly came to these pilots aid. The headquarters were not cleaned or serviced, garbage pickup was halted, and parts were not delivered. In some of the cities served, even the airport cops are Teamsters and it was rumored that they too did unofficially supported the strike.

Unions in other countries supported the striking Teamster Pilots and made it difficult for the scab workers. The South American Government even stepped in supporting their country's labor unions and confiscated two aircraft because they did not have enough fuel to leave. The union employees tasked with providing fuel refused to cross a Teamster line. 17 striking Teamster Pilots received much more support than the thousands of striking NWA mechanics.

I see the Teamster logo everywhere, even on the ending credits for one of my favorite movies, Ironman. When a Teamster represented group goes out on strike, people know it, There is no mistaking a Teamster Picket Line.

10. Teamsters have open and direct communications. See for yourself at http://www.teamster.org and http://teamstermagazine.com

When the Teamster General President makes an announcement on labor, or backs a political candidate such as the US President, it is covered on the front pages and shown as the leading story of news casts.

Teamster members number over 1.4 million strong with hundreds of original represented contracts. More than all else, the Teamsters have the Financial capability of competeing against airlines.

How is this for a start? I expect a bunch of name calling and accusations of lying, so you are free to verify this for yourselves. I reserched all of this using google and this time, kept my opinion to a minimum.

Let me help you out.
http://www.mechanicsforchange.com/site_broken_promises.shtml

“With the Teamsters as your bargaining representative any changes to the contract will be voted on by the membership, and you will be kept well informed throughout the process.” Quote from Paul Molenburg Teamsters appointed business agent during 2007 IBT UAL campaign. Teamsters UAL News Vol 2 Issue 4.
Another Broken Teamsters campaign promise
Mr. Molenburg broke his promise to the membership when he signed an agreement to create a new classification in your contract without the knowledge or consent of the UAL SFOOV shop stewards or membership. Teamsters’ hypocrisy at its finest. This letter of agreement which has established a new classification is an example of the inexperience, and incompetence we see everyday under the “Teamster representation” at United Airlines. The Airframe Support Lead LOA is Here...
This Teamster appointed business agent and the company created a new classification in your contract
The qualifications and responsibilities of the new classification are to be “determined by the company” after the signing of the letter. This inexperienced business agent has shown disregard for our contract and membership.
He is a shining example of everything we dislike about the Teamsters. Clacy Griswold and Chris Griswold Local 986 Secretary appointed Paul to the business agent position and shortly thereafter they divided the SFO membership in half. The IBT repaid his campaign lies and loyalty by putting this inexperienced and unqualified person in charge of enforcing (or not enforcing) our contract. The Teamsters constitution and bylaws no longer has provisions for electing a business agent this right was removed in 1981. Teamsters’ democracy at its best!
During their campaign Mr. Molenburg wrote on union democracy and open negotiations.
His fairytale description of Teamster democracy is so far from Teamster reality at UAL it is laughable. Mr. Molenburg talks about furloughed UAL mechanics rights even as the IBT UAL negotiating team works to eliminate United mechanic lifetime recall rights! The article is available at mechanicsforchange.com. Everything the Teamsters promised in their campaign at UAL has turned out to be a lie.

Even from the IAM... :lol:
You guys need to get your stories straight!
B) xUT
 
Thank you Anomaly.

You are the first person to give an answer. But, you only have proved our point of why we know AMFA is better.

1. Teamsters have a completely democratic process starting with its International General President. Every member has a chance to decide our leadership and direction by voting from the initial nominations chosen by elected delegates, all the way to the final election process. Ballots are sent to each and every Teamster member. The Teamsters General Executive Board is voted on by the membership every five years. One member, one vote!

2. Local Officers are also elected within the Teamsters. Business agents in some Locals are elected as part of the executive committee, and at other Locals the most experienced and qualified are hired by the elected Principal Officer. This ensures the best person for the job and all the positions are held to high membership standards. If a BA does not meet the minimum expectations of the membership and the principal officer, said BA is gone. Proof is at UAL in SFO.

3. IBT executive board members and principal officers come from many areas of labor. The all bring their unique expertise and professional experience. Many of the Local Presidents are business professionals, such as Pilots and Lawyers.

4. The pay and benefits for each Local Employed Officer and Business Agent is stated in each of the Locals By Laws and are available to each member.

5. Teamsters conduct private professional negotiations, with experienced negotiators. There is no circus act and the company does not know our hand by reading it on the web. Our negotiators are full time, and negotiate agreements on an ongoing basis. These negotiations are supplemented with the Business agents who are in direct contract with the members, and with the members themselves through elected or chosen negotiating team members. These members too are held to the highest Teamster standards. The negotiating team is responsible for accepting the company proposals, and the membership is allowed a vote. Our last contract at UAL, even though an large number of us hated our first proposal, at least the Teamsters had the decency to allow us to look at the companies beat offer and vote for ourselves.

6. IBT can hold and support a strike and picket line. We have a huge war chest in the international strike fund which has amounted to over several million dollars. In addition, many Locals have their own strike fund and this money is paid IN ADDITION TO the international funds. Having a strike fund sends a message to the Employer that your Union is ready to take on a fight should it be necessary. While the money may not match your regular pay check, the money paid is much more than you might think. See how much you can expect by going to http://www.teamster....to Teamster.org . NWA strikers received nothing ($0.00) financial support from their Union.

7. Teamsters employ in house professionals who are dedicated solely to the members. There is no conflict of interest. Teamsters have their own in house fully staffed Legal, Safety and health, Economics and Contracts, Training and Development, and a dozen other departments all willing able and ready to help members when needed. Go to http://www.teamster.org and under the About Us tab, click on Departments to find out more.

8. Teamsters get involved in every aspect needed to benefit the members. Teamsters members are able to enjoy unique discounts, disaster relief aid, retiree assistance, job banks, and many other Teamster member privileges. You can get assistance and aid for many types of real life issues as a member of the Teamsters. You can also get good rates on credit cards if that's your thing. Teamsters also created the Teamster Airline Maintenance Coalition to discuss those issues immediately important to all airline mechanics. This group looks at issues outside the contracts such as outsourcing or new emerging FAA policies. All other Unions were invited to participate in collectively speaking up for our profession. The association refuses to take part or help in this collective movement.

9. Teamsters have many concerns. To better the life of the A&P mechanic and related is one of those concerns. Teamsters fight to improve working conditions, pay and benefits, and job security. Teamsters work in the negotiating rooms, board rooms, and in the offices of law makers to ensure top working conditions, benefits, and pay for all members. It takes a combination of many different fights to gain what’s right. After all, the company is fighting us constantly using weapons like the bankruptcy courts. Teamster concerns have to be broad based in order to fight for the members.
Additionally Teamsters represent many other industries outside of Aircraft Maintenance.

In 2009 the Teamster represented Pilots of Amerijet went out on strike. With only 7 aircraft and the company had no problem finding replacement pilots (the real definition of scabs) to continue flying. The other Teamster professions quickly came to these pilots aid. The headquarters were not cleaned or serviced, garbage pickup was halted, and parts were not delivered. In some of the cities served, even the airport cops are Teamsters and it was rumored that they too did unofficially supported the strike.

Unions in other countries supported the striking Teamster Pilots and made it difficult for the scab workers. The South American Government even stepped in supporting their country's labor unions and confiscated two aircraft because they did not have enough fuel to leave. The union employees tasked with providing fuel refused to cross a Teamster line. 17 striking Teamster Pilots received much more support than the thousands of striking NWA mechanics.

I see the Teamster logo everywhere, even on the ending credits for one of my favorite movies, Ironman. When a Teamster represented group goes out on strike, people know it, There is no mistaking a Teamster Picket Line.

10. Teamsters have open and direct communications. See for yourself at http://www.teamster.org and http://teamstermagazine.com

When the Teamster General President makes an announcement on labor, or backs a political candidate such as the US President, it is covered on the front pages and shown as the leading story of news casts.

Teamster members number over 1.4 million strong with hundreds of original represented contracts. More than all else, the Teamsters have the Financial capability of competeing against airlines.

I am not sure that either list proves any points. Both your first post and this one are factual. I just do not care for your organization. Apparently, from what I am reading, it will be up to your co-workers to decide what will be best for them. You asked for a list and I responded. Let the points add up at that time, shall we?
 
Let me help you out.
http://www.mechanics..._promises.shtml



Even from the IAM... :lol:
You guys need to get your stories straight!
B) xUT

Mechanics for Change is a group of former AMFA leaders in SFO, who after years of fighting to get out of the IAM and join AMFA, suddenly went back to the IAM in exchange for promises of their own. This group now wants the IAM back at UAL. They put up this site during our contract ratification process in hopes of gaining support. I have a hard time believing anything put out by these guys. I am not taking a stab at the IAM, but these guys have some serious credibility issues in my book.
 
Anomaly, on 20 June 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

When the Teamster General President makes an announcement on labor, or backs a political candidate such as the US President, it is covered on the front pages and shown as the leading story of news casts.


What presidential candidates has the IBT supported in the past.

I only know about Obama. Whoop whoop has been a Teamster for 14 proud years . Why not ask him?
 
I am still for a Craft Union and have no interest in another catch all industrial Union. That is my opinion and it matters to me and is really important to me also.



Out of the 1.5 million in the Teamsters, and out the 80,000 in the "Airline Division"...how many are mechanic and related?

I believe the answer is somewhere above 18,000 mechanics.

Teamsters represent more aircraft mechanics than any other Union.
 
Mechanics for Change is a group of former AMFA leaders in SFO, who after years of fighting to get out of the IAM and join AMFA, suddenly went back to the IAM in exchange for promises of their own. This group now wants the IAM back at UAL. They put up this site during our contract ratification process in hopes of gaining support. I have a hard time believing anything put out by these guys. I am not taking a stab at the IAM, but these guys have some serious credibility issues in my book.

Now you are just being silly and deceitful (no shock here). The core EX-IAM officers are now IBT 'officials'.
Name Names ‘brother’ and I will fill you in.
I didn’t know Roach was an AMFA officer, how did he slip in… :lol:
B) xUT

P.S.
Credibility issues... :lol:
 
I believe the answer is somewhere above 18,000 mechanics.

Teamsters represent more aircraft mechanics than any other Union.

Oh great so if we obtain ibt representation we will end up being appx 30,000 out of an Airline Division with over 100,000 members.

I doubt our profession will be advanced and taken care of properly in a paltry dilution of only 30% of the IBT Airline Division.

That means 70% of our division will be not Mechanic and Related workers.

In any so-called democratic union structure of majority rule, I have my doubts that our 30% will be heard.

It would be like going back to the TWU, only before we were offered seperate locals and self determination.


You view this as great strength and power in size and warchest as you put it.
I view this as becoming a minority profession in a division.

NO THANKS!

Thanks for you honest answer on this one.
 
Who cares? He was never elected by the membership anyway, but then ejected by the IBT unelected officials.
Who elected Rich? You know, the guy who ran van pools now a BA for the IBT.
You want to name names at SFO? I got em. Pictures as well.
B) xUT

Your the one who is bringing all these guys up. You keep coming back to this, but elected, hired, appointed, or born into it, these BA's ara all doing a good job.

Jut curios xUT. have you ever complained to any of these guys personally? You seem like the kind of guy who does this kind of thing on the internet but will never face the guy in person. How about taking all those pictures you have of Rich, and showing HIM. If you have an issue with the guy, go deal with him.
 
Now you are just being silly and deceitful (no shock here). The core EX-IAM officers are now IBT 'officials'.
Name Names ‘brother’ and I will fill you in.
I didn’t know Roach was an AMFA officer, how did he slip in… :lol:
B) xUT

P.S.
Credibility issues... :lol:


Ask anyone at SFO who these guys are. Ask Rich if you want. Are you man enough to do that?

Here is a quote from a USA Today article,

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2009-05-11-iam-united-mechanics_N.htm

Tiberi said mechanics came to the IAM and asked for the chance to switch.

"A group of mechanics from United Airlines came to our headquarters in Maryland and asked us to help them launch this campaign. These are people who supported the IAM in the past, they are former representatives from AMFA, and there are some current Teamster" representatives in the group, he said.

Another one from another web site.

http://cal-ualmechanics.com

Now instead of saying, "where are they" or "when is" we ask you, "what are you going to do"? It's no longer up to a handful of individuals to drive this need for change, it's up to the work group as a whole to make that decision by becoming active by asking questions and holding this union responsible. By signing a AMFA card or a IAM card. Yes, we said IAM card. It's no longer about which union but ridding ourselves of a union who dictates to the membership. It's time to send the IBT packing. Like SWA did. Like Horizon Air is doing and soon, AirTran will do.

The about us page has changed. In the past it explained how they were ex-AMFA representatives who approached the IAM. I wish this was all BS, but it is what it is. IAM and AMFA teamed up to try to get reid of the IBT.

Another from the same Mechanics for Change web site you posted.

http://www.mechanicsforchange.com/article_01_ual_mechanics_take_action.shtml

Former IAM and AMFA mechanics have joined together to establish our own District and Locals on the property at UAL. We will return to the AFL-CIO with the IAMAW and re-establish our own Locals in SFO DEN, ORD and IAD.
These new Locals will be democratically controlled by the Mechanics and Related from United Airlines.

One more. This one even accurately suggests that AMFA officially considered merging.

http://labornet.org/cgi-bin/intbd/cgi-bin/intbd.cgi?action=read&id=2

(Read this one carefully.)

A July 10, 2007, letter from the IAM General Vice President Robert Roach, Jr. to all UAL mechanics described a recent meeting to discuss affiliation with AMFA national leaders in which "we did not set any preconditions or limitations, but instead asked your leaders to develop and propose whatever they felt would be the most beneficial to their membership. There was no pressure and the IAM hopes it will ultimately result in United Mechanic & Related employees returning to the Machinists Union."

"I urge you to contact your leadership because now is the time to have discussions with the IAM regarding an affiliation that would conclude with you voting on a proposal. This must begin quickly because your right to union representation is being threatened."

In fact, AMFA seriously explored this possibility, but the talks eventually bogged down.

While almost all AMFA leaders are willing to admit isolating mechanics from the larger more powerful AFL-CIO unions was a catastrophic blunder, there is still lots of resistance among UAL mechanics to admitting the closely-related error that it was a mistake to leave the IAM, still the largest union at UAL and in the airline industry.

As a result, AMFA explored affiliation with other unions in the AFL-CIO, but all turned AMFA back around to the IAM in the name of labor solidarity as codified in Article XX of the AFL-CIO constitution that forbids unions raiding each other.


Or, like I said before, just ask any UAL mechanic at SFO.
 
The IBT requested White House support for a moratorium on foreign outsourcing until the FAA budget bill was finally passed. The new bill does offer some minor changes that help to level the playing field, but personally I think Congress folded. "Industrial unions" like the IAM, TWU, and the IBT continue to lobby and petition for more strict regulations regarding foreign aircraft maintenance on US airlines. For the record, your Craft Union boasts doing the same thing. It can be found on their web site.

The MRO's are winning and outspending even the large Unions. Politicians are simply not openly supporting ANY unions. Industrial vs craft is such a waste of time and unfortunately the wrong fight. In the battle for Unions in America, brother, we are both loosing.

That is exactly why the money in politics is the failing strategy.

Let's take our battle to street, shut down the commerce system of the imperialist and I bet they listen to us then!
 
DO YOU NEED ANOTHER “catch-all” INDUSTRIAL UNION LIKE TWU?
that will represent virtually anyone?


Teamsters Constitution “Catch All Unionism”

Jurisdiction
Section 1(a). This organization has jurisdiction over all workers including, without limitation, teamsters, chauffeurs, warehousemen, and helpers; all who are employed on or around horses, harness, carriages, automobiles, trucks, trailers, aircraft, and all other vehicles hauling, carrying, or conveying freight, merchandise, or materials; automotive sales, service, and maintenance employees; garage workers and service station employees; warehousemen of all kinds employed in warehouse work, stockmen, shipping room employees, and loaders,
that is, persons engaged in loading or unloading freight, merchandise, or other materials on, to, or from any type of vehicle; all classes of dairy employees, inside and outside,
including salesmen, brewery and soft drink workers; workers employed in ice cream plants; all other workers employed in the manufacture, processing, sale, and distribution of food, milk, dairy, and other products; all truck terminal employees; cannery workers; all craft or classes of airline and rail employees, including locomotive engineers, trainmen, rail traffic controllers, and
maintenance of way workers; office, technical, and professional employees; health care employees; agricultural employees; public employees; all classifications of employees in the graphic communications industry; law enforcement personnel and industrial employees.



WE DESERVE A CRAFT UNION

AMFA Constitution

There shall be two divisions of membership:

  1. Airline Technical Division – shall include all licensed and unlicensed maintenance personnel who work or instruct directly on aircraft and/or components of a certificated air carrier and are responsible for the airworthiness or workmanship of the aircraft and/or its components. This includes maintenance support technicians and related personnel as defined by the National Mediation Board’s determination of the Mechanics and Related Class and Craft.
  1. Aviation Technical Division – shall include all licensed and unlicensed maintenance personnel who work directly on general aviation aircraft and/or components and are responsible for the airworthiness and workmanship of an aircraft and/or its components. This includes line, shop, and hangar maintenance.
THE AMFA IDEA IS TO GET ALL MECHANICS INTO ONE UNION
THIS IDEA CAN ONLY BE TRIED WITH YOUR HELP AND INVOLVEMENT
 
DO YOU NEED ANOTHER “catch-all” INDUSTRIAL UNION LIKE TWU?
that will represent virtually anyone?


Teamsters Constitution “Catch All Unionism”

Jurisdiction
Section 1(a). This organization has jurisdiction over all workers including, without limitation, teamsters, chauffeurs, warehousemen, and helpers; all who are employed on or around horses, harness, carriages, automobiles, trucks, trailers, aircraft, and all other vehicles hauling, carrying, or conveying freight, merchandise, or materials; automotive sales, service, and maintenance employees; garage workers and service station employees; warehousemen of all kinds employed in warehouse work, stockmen, shipping room employees, and loaders,
that is, persons engaged in loading or unloading freight, merchandise, or other materials on, to, or from any type of vehicle; all classes of dairy employees, inside and outside,
including salesmen, brewery and soft drink workers; workers employed in ice cream plants; all other workers employed in the manufacture, processing, sale, and distribution of food, milk, dairy, and other products; all truck terminal employees; cannery workers; all craft or classes of airline and rail employees, including locomotive engineers, trainmen, rail traffic controllers, and
maintenance of way workers; office, technical, and professional employees; health care employees; agricultural employees; public employees; all classifications of employees in the graphic communications industry; law enforcement personnel and industrial employees.




WE DESERVE A CRAFT UNION

AMFA Constitution

There shall be two divisions of membership:

  1. Airline Technical Division – shall include all licensed and unlicensed maintenance personnel who work or instruct directly on aircraft and/or components of a certificated air carrier and are responsible for the airworthiness or workmanship of the aircraft and/or its components. This includes maintenance support technicians and related personnel as defined by the National Mediation Board’s determination of the Mechanics and Related Class and Craft.
  1. Aviation Technical Division – shall include all licensed and unlicensed maintenance personnel who work directly on general aviation aircraft and/or components and are responsible for the airworthiness and workmanship of an aircraft and/or its components. This includes line, shop, and hangar maintenance.
THE AMFA IDEA IS TO GET ALL MECHANICS INTO ONE UNION
THIS IDEA CAN ONLY BE TRIED WITH YOUR HELP AND INVOLVEMENT

AMFA represented 8 airlines according to your video. Now they have only 2 left. WHY? It sounds like your ideas aren't working out so well.
 
AMFA represented 8 airlines according to your video. Now they have only 2 left. WHY? It sounds like your ideas aren't working out so well.

Basically all you have to important issues is either no answer or sling mud.

And you still refuse to accept the fact that the idea has not been tried, which is to get all mechanics in one union, a craft union.

And your ibt has participated in non-support of those that democratically made their decision by majority rule vote. Your union would rather punish and disrupt those AMT's than to allow them to excercise free will and the idea to be tried.

I will never support any industrial union that exhibits more desire to protect the institution and dues money rather assist workers that view unionism differently. The ibt participation with imperialist management of northwest to punish AMT's that left the IAM is all one needs to make the correct decision.

VOTE AMFA

and reject Communist Rule and Genocide of Free Thinking Professionals.
 
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