Industrial vs. Craft

[ThirdSeatHero]

My bad ThirdSeatHero it was Bloombergs Buisness Week

This is out of Anomalys post

Indeed it is. My response was based on the exchange between you and Informer. Where he had taken exception to Anomalys attacks...

...Very few will buy into your personal attacks regarding Lawyers or Advisors of the past...

To which you responded in part....

I am pretty sure these accusations should have been inbound toward the author of this post instead of outbound

As Informer clearly stated attack(S), he wasn't simply talking of one article but of Anomalys ongoing string of them.

You posted in his defense that Informers accusations should be redirected, I simply pointed out that the accusations were accurately directed and cited his recent posting of an outright lie, the supposed email, in which he obviously knows it is inaccurate by his initial disclaimer.

 

[Anomaly]

Here is another interesting article explaining more on Kevin McCormick. Yea, I know he is gone now. The question, however, who will these guys replace him with when the "dues come pouring in" ???

http://www.goiam.org/publications/2005fall/amfa.pdf

 

[AC Tynker]

Indeed it is. My response was based on the exchange between you and Informer. Where he had taken exception to Anomalys attacks...



To which you responded in part....



As Informer clearly stated attack(S), he wasn't simply talking of one article but of Anomalys ongoing string of them.

You posted in his defense that Informers accusations should be redirected, I simply pointed out that the accusations were accurately directed and cited his recent posting of an outright lie, the supposed email, in which he obviously knows it is inaccurate by his initial disclaimer.

Ok, guess we are talking about two different things. I was only referring to what I made red and bold, the copy and pasting part and whatever the last red bold part was. Would have to go back and look at the post, I really wasn't referring to an email or any lawyers but no big deal. I guess we misunderstood one another.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

.....Yea.... We can recall those who have done IRREVERSIBLE damage to our futures, then what??? How bout those AMFA leaders who took NWA mechanics out on strike completely unprepared and without their final input? How about those AMFA leaders who removed language involving exercising seniority during a furlough for UAL? Or Kevin McCormick who designed the idea that AMFA should enter into interest based bargaining for the mechanics at Alaska, a system that eliminates the members right to vote and instead leaves it to a neutral to decide every open article of the contract? Or how about a law firm who so badly losses a case then decides to appeal to a higher court dooming forever every new contract employees with absolute defined precedence?? Sure you can recall all these people, but look how much damage they can do.... You want that?.....

As opposed to what? The appointed "yes" men of the teamsters?

Under the ibt you CAN'T recall those who have done IRREVERSIBLE damage to our futures, Like the ibt "leaders" who failed at Horizon, losing over 30% of the membership after allowing the outsourcing of heavy maintenance, then agreeing in writing to never speak in public about it.

Or the "leaders" at UAL who signed an LOA with management, without a vote of the membership, granting mechanic seniority to SAMC controllers allowing them to bump mechanics while mechanics were in the middle of an RIF?

Or the "leader" at SWA who cut a backroom(hotel room actually) deal with management that denied members back pay on a section of a newly ratified CBA.

Or the "leaders" at UAL that just cut over $3 dollars off the top scale of cleaners in our new CBA.

Look at the damage they HAVE DONE.....YES, without question, I'd like the ability to remove them.

 

[Buck]

Here is another interesting article explaining more on Kevin McCormick. Yea, I know he is gone now. The question, however, who will these guys replace him with when the "dues come pouring in" ???

http://www.goiam.org...05fall/amfa.pdf

Yes he is gone and you are not an AA employee, you two have something a little in common.

 

[Anomaly]

As opposed to what? The appointed "yes" men of the teamsters?

Under the ibt you CAN'T recall those who have done IRREVERSIBLE damage to our futures, Like the ibt "leaders" who failed at Horizon, losing over 30% of the membership after allowing the outsourcing of heavy maintenance, then agreeing in writing to never speak in public about it.

Or the "leaders" at UAL who signed an LOA with management, without a vote of the membership, granting mechanic seniority to SAMC controllers allowing them to bump mechanics while mechanics were in the middle of an RIF?

Or the "leader" at SWA who cut a backroom(hotel room actually) deal with management that denied members back pay on a section of a newly ratified CBA.

Or the "leaders" at UAL that just cut over $3 dollars off the top scale of cleaners in our new CBA.

Look at the damage they HAVE DONE.....YES, without question, I'd like the ability to remove them.

As one other poster mentioned, the Horizon deal was in the works long before the IBT was on property. I do not know enough about that, but it did sound plausible. I do know that the language was in the contract and the members voted overwhelmingly to accept it. Around 80% approval if memory serves.

SAMC controllers? Does it say that in their contract? As a matter of fact, do they even have a contract?

The IBT cut a backroom deal? Seriously? They can do that while in mediation? The fact is, SWA and the IBT were in fact in mediation at the time. They met to discuss this issue (The contention had to do with the retro on the paid lunch. This was never on the table, but it was believed gained. The foul was in communication) upon the order of the NMB assigned mediator. There was no "backroom deal" as the mediator was present for the discussion and agreement. At the end of the day, it went for a ratification vote and passed.

What cleaners?? AMFA got rid of them all.

 

[AC Tynker]

Actually, AC Tynker, the Bloomberg Article was about McCormick.

http://www.businessw...ors-outside-man

The one that has the two so frenzied is an article slamming Seham.

http://compasscorrec...oy-your-lawfirm

I read it again and still like it. Take it with a grain of salt....

Roger That

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

As one other poster mentioned, the Horizon deal was in the works long before the IBT was on property. I do not know enough about that, but it did sound plausible. I do know that the language was in the contract and the members voted overwhelmingly to accept it. Around 80% approval if memory serves.

Yes, a poster that coincidentally just shows up to defend your supposed position then disappears. Well fortunately I have a copy of the agreement and it tells a different story. This is taken directly from the Horizon agreement...

Whereas: Horizon Air timely notified IBT on August 2"^ 2010 of its intent to
subcontract heavy aircraft maintenance work and furlough IBT -represented maintenance
personnel; and

So the ibt was certified on Horizon in April of 2009, over a year later the ibt was notified as written here, as signed by the company and the ibt. Yet you continue to claim it was already in the works. Well then that makes the ibt even bigger failures then doesn't it? They sold themselves on the power of 1.4 million members, all their supposed resources, they even took over in the middle of negotiations at Horizon....it was the ibts time to shine, and they failed miserably. If the ibt was to get on at AA, are you going to blame your failures on the TWU contract?

SAMC controllers? Does it say that in their contract? As a matter of fact, do they even have a contract?

No, the LOA was secretly written into our CBA. As to the rest, no the SAMC controllers don't have a contract, they were supposed to be in negotiation as they have been accreted into our class and craft the ibt is supposed to represent them.

The IBT cut a backroom deal? Seriously? They can do that while in mediation? The fact is, SWA and the IBT were in fact in mediation at the time. They met to discuss this issue (The contention had to do with the retro on the paid lunch. This was never on the table, but it was believed gained. The foul was in communication) upon the order of the NMB assigned mediator. There was no "backroom deal" as the mediator was present for the discussion and agreement. At the end of the day, it went for a ratification vote and passed.

Yes Seriously. From the arbitration......

The paid lunch “deal” was allegedly reached in private negotiations between two
Company representatives and
two Teamster representatives, which transpired
in CEO Parker’s hotel room. The Company witnesses presented testimony and
documentary evidence that the Teamsters’ revised written proposal expressly provided for a non-retroactive implementation as of the date of signing (DOS). Nevertheless, in
drafting the final language for Article 5, CEO Parker excised any reference to a DOS
implementation date and made no change to LOA 1 to indicate that the paid lunch was to
be excluded from the contractual guarantee of “full retroactive pay.” Indeed, another
change was allegedly made in the implementation date – from DOS to date of ratification
(DOR) – again, without the benefit of any written amendment.
CEO Parker tacitly admitted that his drafting held the potential for misleading the
voting membership into believing that the paid lunch was retroactive. Vice President
Sokol heard first hand that the rank-and-file expected paid lunch to be part of their “full
retroactive pay.” Nevertheless, the Company made no effort to communicate the
purported intention to make the paid lunch non-retroactive.
The mechanics’ expectation was based on the written language of the tentative
agreement. The term “full retroactive pay” had always been interpreted expansively for
the purpose of putting the employees in precisely the position they would have been in if
the contract had been signed and ratified on the amendable date. In other words, full
retroactive pay meant full retroactive pay. More than one Company witness testified that the only thing that contradicted the
mechanics’ expectation was an oral agreement between Company and Teamster
representatives that never found its way into the written agreement. But to allow such an
oral agreement to prevail over the plain written language circulated to the mechanic
group is not only inequitable, it is flatly prohibited by the Agreement’s express terms. To
put it another way, as a matter of law, the mechanics are entitled to the Agreement that
they ratified, not to an unpublished one reached in CEO Parker’s hotel room.

This was no doubt on the minds of SWA mechanics when the ibt "tried" to collect cards during the meger/integration of AirTran mechanics.

What cleaners?? AMFA got rid of them all.

Again with the lies. UAL furloughed the cleaners not AMFA.

Nevermind your pathetic attempt at a dodge, the ibt failed in their representation of the cleaners at both UAL & CAL.

UAL still has Cleaners on furlough with recall rights. CAL has active Cleaners working. From the start of our contract negotiations the ibt has done the song and dance of "were going to take the BEST of both contracts". Bourne himself called it a transition agreement to set us up for amalgamation.

So what happens at amalgamation for the New United Cleaners?

Do they have the $14+ top out from the CAL agreement, or the superior $17+ top out from the UAL agreement to negotiate with now?

By lowering the Cleaners top out at United the ibt failed any Cleaner returning from furlough, and destroyed any leverage the current CAL cleaners had in the amalgamation negotiations to come.

The ibt FAILED plain and simple.

 

[Anomaly]

Yes, a poster that coincidentally just shows up to defend your supposed position then disappears. Well fortunately I have a copy of the agreement and it tells a different story. This is taken directly from the Horizon agreement...



So the ibt was certified on Horizon in April of 2009, over a year later the ibt was notified as written here, as signed by the company and the ibt. Yet you continue to claim it was already in the works. Well then that makes the ibt even bigger failures then doesn't it? They sold themselves on the power of 1.4 million members, all their supposed resources, they even took over in the middle of negotiations at Horizon....it was the ibts time to shine, and they failed miserably. If the ibt was to get on at AA, are you going to blame your failures on the TWU contract?




No, the LOA was secretly written into our CBA. As to the rest, no the SAMC controllers don't have a contract, they were supposed to be in negotiation as they have been accreted into our class and craft the ibt is supposed to represent them.



Yes Seriously. From the arbitration......






Again with the lies. UAL furloughed the cleaners not AMFA.

Nevermind your pathetic attempt at a dodge, the ibt failed in their representation of the cleaners at both UAL & CAL.

UAL still has Cleaners on furlough with recall rights. CAL has active Cleaners working. From the start of our contract negotiations the ibt has done the song and dance of "were going to take the BEST of both contracts". Bourne himself called it a transition agreement to set us up for amalgamation.

So what happens at amalgamation for the New United Cleaners?

Do they have the $14+ top out from the CAL agreement, or the superior $17+ top out from the UAL agreement to negotiate with now?

By lowering the Cleaners top out at United the ibt failed any Cleaner returning from furlough, and destroyed any leverage the current CAL cleaners had in the amalgamation negotiations to come.

The ibt FAILED plain and simple.

You certainly do have a unique way of looking at things 🙄 🙄 🙄

I'm just not that angry.

You go on and on about the Horizon "problem", but I have yet to hear one single negative point from even one person who works or did work at Horizon during this time. The only post I have EVER seen was from Jet wash who seemingly vanished. I had questions too, and asked repeatedly, but he has not surfaced since his one post. The very basic point, one you ignore, THEY VOTED>>>>

Can you say the same for the NWA Mechanics? How about the Alaska Mechanics who were forced with IBB (interest base bargaining)? Or how about you? Did you vote when AMFA systematically and without notice dropped LOA 74-1M - Bumping Rights of Laid Off Employees? NO You did NOT. Neither did I and paid the price by moving from state to state to protect my job. Thanks AMFA.

I looked for the super secret language in our contract about the SAMC group. Was it written in invisible ink? Is it THAT much of a secret?

As far as the SWA case, in your barely readable supposed arbitration case, I found; CEO Parker tacitly admitted that his drafting held the potential for misleading the voting membership into believing that the paid lunch was retroactive. Yet you blame the Teamsters.

As I said. The IBT did a poor job of communicating this. By the way, what was the result of the AMFA arbitration case? Surely the mechanics were offered all they believed they should have and more? Did AMFA prevail? In my search for the answer, I found a page worth taking a look at.

http://www.indeed.com/forum/cmp/Southwest-Airlines/Southwest-AirTran-Integration-Questions/t361527

This forum is full of pro SWA posts that paint a different picture completely on life as a mechanic at an airline that values it's employees. There concerns and issues seem to be worldly different from yours and mine. No wonder AMFA gets such a poor turn out for union business elections. I wonder what it would be like to work for a company that has NEVER furloughed mechanics, according to at least one SWA mechanic on this board.

On the other hand, after reading your quotes it became terribly obvious where you get your information. Are you seriously one of those Mechanics for Change characters? Talk about a sell out. (For the rest of you, mechanics for change is a combined effort of SOME former AMFA leaders at UAL who were so desperate to get back into power, they sold their sole to the IAM in exchange for a future position. We call this idiotic group the new IAMAMFA)

And finally, the cleaners. As you reluctantly admitted, we have none. UA outsourced all of them. I was there too when AMFA did very very little to try to protect them. Instead, AMFA negotiated deals for the mechanics, sacrificing the cleaners. At least one other person on this board suggested it was no big deal. But my concern is that AMFA does trade off one employee for another. When will they trade a welders job for more Line pay? I really do not like that idea either.

In the end, you still had a vote. Did you vote NO to the last agreement because you were unsatisfied about the pay for cleaners that no longer work here at UA? No, you didn't. Neither did I.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

You certainly do have a unique way of looking at things 🙄 🙄 🙄

I'm just not that angry.

You go on and on about the Horizon "problem", but I have yet to hear one single negative point from even one person who works or did work at Horizon during this time. The only post I have EVER seen was from Jet wash who seemingly vanished. I had questions too, and asked repeatedly, but he has not surfaced since his one post. The very basic point, one you ignore, THEY VOTED>>>>

Who said I was angry?

Haven't heard even one person? Really? .... I'm in SFO, just like you supposedly are and I just saw a representational election take place at Horizon. While I'm sure now with freshly jogged memory will quickly remind us that the ibt won, the point remains while they may not post here, they were certainly upset enough to trigger an election. Obviously they're not as content as you'd like others to believe

Can you say the same for the NWA Mechanics? How about the Alaska Mechanics who were forced with IBB (interest base bargaining)? Or how about you? Did you vote when AMFA systematically and without notice dropped LOA 74-1M - Bumping Rights of Laid Off Employees? NO You did NOT. Neither did I and paid the price by moving from state to state to protect my job. Thanks AMFA.

NWA had already voted no to an agreement, and yes to strike. The LBO was worse than the agreement voted down, and would've called for the furlough of over half the mechanics. Are you truly that naive to honestly believe you can make any sort of point by claiming AMFA denied the majority of NWA mechanics the right to vote themselves out of a job? Good luck with that!

Alaska Mechanics who were "forced" with IBB? Really? FORCED? Last I checked the Mechanics at Alaska approved IBB in future(then) negotiations.....and in you words....VOTED on it. However if you have some agreement proving otherwise please post it, I'd like to see it.

On a side note, I do find it amusing you mentioning IBB....as the ibt agreed to use in the Horizon Pilots most recent agreement.

No, I didn't vote on the removal of LOA74-1M......but I sure as hell voted on the RECALL of the Airline Rep in SFO that took part in it. Did you vote on the SAMC LOA that was put in our contract without a vote? NO You did NOT, but UNLIKE AMFA I can't RECALL the offending party.

I looked for the super secret language in our contract about the SAMC group. Was it written in invisible ink? Is it THAT much of a secret?

You must not have looked very hard.

http://teamsterssfo...._letter_MOU.pdf

Its on the SFO website where you "claim" to be stationed....funny how you never seem to have even the most basic grasp of events in SFO, yet you seem to have all the info/talk like someone in Seattle would ... interesting.

As far as the SWA case, in your barely readable supposed arbitration case, I found; CEO Parker tacitly admitted that his drafting held the potential for misleading the voting membership into believing that the paid lunch was retroactive. Yet you blame the Teamsters.

As I said. The IBT did a poor job of communicating this. By the way, what was the result of the AMFA arbitration case? Surely the mechanics were offered all they believed they should have and more? Did AMFA prevail? In my search for the answer, I found a page worth taking a look at.

http://www.indeed.co...estions/t361527

This forum is full of pro SWA posts that paint a different picture completely on life as a mechanic at an airline that values it's employees. There concerns and issues seem to be worldly different from yours and mine. No wonder AMFA gets such a poor turn out for union business elections. I wonder what it would be like to work for a company that has NEVER furloughed mechanics, according to at least one SWA mechanic on this board.

On the other hand, after reading your quotes it became terribly obvious where you get your information. Are you seriously one of those Mechanics for Change characters? Talk about a sell out. (For the rest of you, mechanics for change is a combined effort of SOME former AMFA leaders at UAL who were so desperate to get back into power, they sold their sole to the IAM in exchange for a future position. We call this idiotic group the new IAMAMFA)

Yes, I got the arbitration piece off the mechanics for change website, many people on this board have accessed it and other information too, haven't you noticed the links in some of the posts?. Doesn't paint a rosy picture of things at UAL does it?

As to my involvement I have no problem admitting I've signed BOTH cards here at UAL. I've directed co-workers when asked, to both the AMFA site and the mechanics for change site for them to make up their own minds. I want the ibt gone, I think I've been more than clear on that point.

I am curious about you labeling the mechanic for change former AMFA leaders as "sell outs" Wouldn't the exact same thing be said for all the ibt leaders, who were the former IAM leaders we threw out? They were so desperate to get back into power they became born-again teamsters.....right. By the way, if it isn't already apparent I do not agree with your assessment of things, that said ...."IF" you have any REAL PROOF that these mechanic for change individuals have cut deals with the IAM for positions, then by all means post it here and I'll immediately +1 it and then repost it on the UAL side as well as spread it around the break room at work.

As for the SWA arbitration, I'm curious if you read it, and then cited a portion of it, and even deduced where I got the copy from......why did you leave out this quote?

More than one Company witness testified that the only thing that contradicted the
mechanics’ expectation was an oral agreement between Company and Teamster
representatives that never found its way into the written agreement.

You must've missed it.

And finally, the cleaners. As you reluctantly admitted, we have none. UA outsourced all of them. I was there too when AMFA did very very little to try to protect them. Instead, AMFA negotiated deals for the mechanics, sacrificing the cleaners. At least one other person on this board suggested it was no big deal. But my concern is that AMFA does trade off one employee for another. When will they trade a welders job for more Line pay? I really do not like that idea either.

In the end, you still had a vote. Did you vote NO to the last agreement because you were unsatisfied about the pay for cleaners that no longer work here at UA? No, you didn't. Neither did I.

Funny thing, you talk and talk about the cleaners, but you say nothing on the ibts failure to represent their interests.

Again because you seemed to have missed it the first time.....

UAL still has Cleaners on furlough with recall rights. CAL has active Cleaners working. From the start of our contract negotiations the ibt has done the song and dance of "were going to take the BEST of both contracts". Bourne himself called it a transition agreement to set us up for amalgamation.

So what happens at amalgamation for the New United Cleaners?

Do they have the $14+ top out from the CAL agreement, or the superior $17+ top out from the UAL agreement to negotiate with now?

By lowering the Cleaners top out at United the ibt failed any Cleaner returning from furlough, and destroyed any leverage the current CAL cleaners had in the amalgamation negotiations to come.

The ibt FAILED plain and simple.


As for my vote on the last CBA, I voted NO.

It wasn't JUST for the cleaners payscale that the ibt cut, it was for a long list of additional language sacrifices as well as inadequate pay and retro.

 

[Bob Owens]

This forum is full of pro SWA posts that paint a different picture completely on life as a mechanic at an airline that values it's employees. There concerns and issues seem to be worldly different from yours and mine. No wonder AMFA gets such a poor turn out for union business elections. I wonder what it would be like to work for a company that has NEVER furloughed mechanics, according to at least one SWA mechanic on this board.

I know the answer but could you give me your version.

Why did the mechanics at Southwest Decertify the IBT and go with AMFA?

That was back in 2003. There were no concessions, no massive layoffs, no threats of BK. Why do you feel they left the IBT?

Why hasnt the IBT been able to get back in?

 

[DNTULSA]

Truthfully DNTULSA this part of the board is predominately Pro AMFA so in my opinion if you are speaking out against them then having a negative reputation number makes sense. Myself and Raptorman tried to warn people that their actions on here could have a negative effect on their employment status and received a negative score so no I don't pay attention to the reputation points because they can be awarded or taken away at will instead of merit. If it were a neutral party awarding them then it might mean something in My opinion.

If this is a hotbed of AMFA supporters, why is anomaly posting here? He has a huge amount of negatives (- 270) and isn't gaining any support. (except a few people who come out of the woodwork and sound like they have been to union BS school)

 

[Hopeful]

If this is a hotbed of AMFA supporters, why is anomaly posting here? He has a huge amount of negatives (- 270) and isn't gaining any support. (except a few people who come out of the woodwork and sound like they have been to union BS school)

You are familiar with the term "SH** STIRRER," aren't you?

 

[DNTULSA]

You are familiar with the term "SH** STIRRER," aren't you?

Is this the same thing as teamster stirrer, or twu stirrer?

 

[AC Tynker]

If this is a hotbed of AMFA supporters, why is anomaly posting here? He has a huge amount of negatives (- 270) and isn't gaining any support. (except a few people who come out of the woodwork and sound like they have been to union BS school)

I really can't answer that you would have to ask him. The reputation points in my opinion are geared toward teenagers or maybe a PC Mod site where you can share process and finished product pictures of a rig you have built like one I'm doing in a Stereo Tuner so it can fit undetectably in my multimedia cabinet. Like I said the reputation system here is more for entertainment I would venture to say. I am pretty sure you and a handful of others here actually try to gauge someones credibility with points. It really doesn't mean anything to most.