I'm ready to go AMFA

[DNTULSA]

Overspeed;

How about the outscourcing in Tulsa?

You seem to ignore difficult questions.

(noise of crickets in the background)

Overspeed! Why don't you answer?

 

[1AA]

(noise of crickets in the background)

Overspeed! Why don't you answer?

He is consulting with his master.
He is figuring a way to avoid the question and promote the TWU's jobs saved platform. Then he will divert it over to the AMFA outsourcing issue again.
And then we will be back to where we started again. Here.....

 

[AC Tynker]

I would imagine Overspeed doesn't want to waste the energy to answer "Captain Reputation Point" because everytime he tries to answer something DNTulsa tells him he is lying so why bother. I could be wrong though.

 

[Overspeed]

Overspeed;

How about the outscourcing in Tulsa?

You seem to ignore difficult questions.

No I don't. Everybody took a hit. Yes TUL is losing some work to outsourcing but so is Line and all of AFW. TUL is taking a much smaller hit than AFW wouldn't you say? The fact remains that TU will still be working all airframe overhaul done at AA in-house. That's more than UA, more than WN, more the US, and more than CO.

 

[Overspeed]

So you are saying that we did better than they did? Lets see, we lost 5000 jobs, plus pay, plus vacation, plus holidays, plus sick time, plus IOD time and locked into those concessions for 6 years that turned into 9 years then gave up another 17% for at least 6 more years-15 years of concessions, and agreed that the company can spend 35% of their total maintenance spend on outsourcing, subject to exclusions and it can be increased if they decide they no longer want Taesl.

Over that same period of time the guys at SWA saw pay increases, increases to the 401K match and increased headcount. We saw decreased headcount and pay cuts, Again, they saw pay increases and headcount increases while we saw pay-cuts and headcount cuts, they earn $10/hr more than we do and you are saying THEY don't know how to negotiate??? Are you for real? Are you saying that if you could trade places, have the same seniority at SWA as you have at AA that you would prefer to be at AA?

yes we did. We lost 5,000 jobs and parked about 200 aircraft that needed a lot of work. If you are saying AA should have kept people on with no work then that would have driven up costs more. Again Bob, you just don't get it. They gave up all of airframe overhaul to get to keep those things you cite. If you wanted to give up all airframe overhaul as the concession in 2003 and keep your wages then you have obviously tipped your hand on your negotiation strategy, give up overhaul to get your higher line pay.

What is "excluded work" Bob? Do you know? Then you are talking BS again.

WN saw pay raises with minimal job increases. Bob, how are you going to get us to WN type wages? They don't have an engine shop, component overhaul, and four lines of airframe overhaul. Bob you dance around the issue all the time but the fact remains, outsourcing high labor content work to low wage MROs lowers maintenance costs. I know you have said no one has proven outsourcing lowers maintenance costs but you have, WN. They have fewer in-house workers per aircraft then anyone else and pay the highest in-house wages, they outsource the most, and WN has the highest profit margin. So again Bob, you have tipped your hand, you are willing to sacrifice overhaul for line maintenance.

Bob, AMFA does not know how to negotiate but they do know how to extend a contract better than anyone and take credit for an industrial union's hard work. Yes I am for real, I am here and not there, I will not screw over my union brothers and sisters that currently work here and have paid union dues for years on end to line my pockets. Now if I had hired in at WN I would have been adamantly opposed to outsourcing to El Salvador when they already have so much freedom to outsource in the US.

Bob you continually cherry pick facts without taking in the totality of the contract.

And Bob, you and your vote no coalition messed up big time. You recommended we vote no until we get a better deal but that "better deal" never came. It got worse and you can blame the ATD all you want but then that shows how clueless you are. You understood the situation. Possible BK, a union organizational structure you don't support, and the fact we have thousands of base members that don't want their job outsourced and you still believed that you could win out. A wise person would have assessed the odds and taken the May 2010 deal that would have paid us $38/hour but you believed you were smarter than the Int'l, the analysts who said BK was inevitable, the industry experts, and all the other airlines unions who got their asses kicked. Now here we are Bob, with $33/hour and you complaining about how we got screwed by everyone else when it was people like you, Ruiz, Peterson, Rojas, Schalk, Gukelberger, and Pike to name a few.

 

[DNTULSA]

No I don't. Everybody took a hit. Yes TUL is losing some work to outsourcing but so is Line and all of AFW. TUL is taking a much smaller hit than AFW wouldn't you say? The fact remains that TU will still be working all airframe overhaul done at AA in-house. That's more than UA, more than WN, more the US, and more than CO.

overspeed,

I believe in reincarnation, and in your former life you could have been a spider the way you spin every answer you give.

Or you could have been a great cat, the way you are lion on every answer you give.

People like you are why I despise the twu.

 

[Overspeed]

overspeed,

I believe in reincarnation, and in your former life you could have been a spider the way you spin every answer you give.

Or you could have been a great cat, the way you are lion on every answer you give.

People like you are why I despise the twu.

Ok. That was an extremely insightful response.

Did you think that voting no would have stopped outsourcing? AA would have seized on the opportunity to go crazy. The 3/22 term sheet would have allowed 40% outsourcing of work PLUS all existing outsourced work. Read the term sheet. That would have been the 10% that is TAESL, the 10% we currently outsource, plus...PLUS the 40% and that is 60% brother with NO cap on line outsourcing. Then after all the job loss carnage people with pre 1990 seniority might be able to get $42/hour. That's a win? Okay.

 

[rifbound]

Ok. That was an extremely insightful response.

Did you think that voting no would have stopped outsourcing? AA would have seized on the opportunity to go crazy. The 3/22 term sheet would have allowed 40% outsourcing of work PLUS all existing outsourced work. Read the term sheet. That would have been the 10% that is TAESL, the 10% we currently outsource, plus...PLUS the 40% and that is 60% brother with NO cap on line outsourcing. Then after all the job loss carnage people with pre 1990 seniority might be able to get $42/hour. That's a win? Okay.

You think that the yes vote did any better? You still have all that pretty much but the kicker is all the open language, TBD, and whatever else is out there that was given away. You yes voters gave it up like a whore on Friday night. No fight what so ever in your bones, none! But I guess that's why you still support them and we are stuck with them. Sad, very sad. I'm glad the Pilot's, F/A's, AMT's and other work groups are not afraid to stand up for what they believe in and fight till the end unlike people like you.

 

[Bob Owens]

No I don't. Everybody took a hit. Yes TUL is losing some work to outsourcing but so is Line and all of AFW. TUL is taking a much smaller hit than AFW wouldn't you say? The fact remains that TU will still be working all airframe overhaul done at AA in-house. That's more than UA, more than WN, more the US, and more than CO.

And the mechanics at AA get paid a lot less than mechanics are paid at UA, WN, US and CO. A lot less. We have a Walmart contract, you treat the members like porkbellies, a commodity, make up for price by adding volume. Sad, the AFL-CIO runs around saying "Our Labor is not a Commodity" and you go around promoting the idea that its ok to pay half as much if you employ twice as many.

 

[1AA]

And the mechanics at AA get paid a lot less than mechanics are paid at UA, WN, US and CO. A lot less. We have a Walmart contract, you treat the members like porkbellies, a commodity, make up for price by adding volume. Sad, the AFL-CIO runs around saying "Our Labor is not a Commodity" and you go around promoting the idea that its ok to pay half as much if you employ twice as many.

Does that really surprise you? I just read the press release from Bobby Gless on the loose seat issue. What a suck ass!! This is an opportunity to get work back and reduce the lay off numbers and he says that this is not a labor problem but a management issue.

 

[Bob Owens]

yes we did. We lost 5,000 jobs and parked about 200 aircraft that needed a lot of work. If you are saying AA should have kept people on with no work then that would have driven up costs more. Again Bob, you just don't get it. They gave up all of airframe overhaul to get to keep those things you cite. If you wanted to give up all airframe overhaul as the concession in 2003 and keep your wages then you have obviously tipped your hand on your negotiation strategy, give up overhaul to get your higher line pay.

You make it sound like we have no choice, ever hear of the concept of fighting back, like the pilots are doing?

What is "excluded work" Bob? Do you know? Then you are talking BS again

"To allow the company certain flexibility in outsourcing Aircraft-related Maintenance, the company and the Union have agreed to establish limits on the amount of work the company may outsource, including the work that is currently outsourced. "Aircraft-related Maintenance" shall be defined as work involving the maintenance, repair, servicing, overhaul, inspection or modification of engines, components or aircraft. The Company and the Union agree to limit the percentage of all outsourced Aircraft-related Maintenance to not exceed 35%, subject to exclusions or modifications described elsewhere in this agreement. Further, the parties also agree that no more than 15% of Line Maintenance work will be contracted out."

I'm guessing it means this:
"In order to reflect the benefit to the TWU of performing work on non-AA operated aircraft, the parties agree that the above-defined Labor Cost and Material Cost is intended to include such costs even when incurred in the performance of non-AA aircraft-related maintenance, including at TAESL, so long as such work is performed by TWU represented employees in accordance with the rates of pay, rules, and working conditions in the TWU/AA Agreement. It is the parties’ intention that work performed by persons on the American Airlines Transport Workers Union Title I seniority list, including at TAESL or other entity, is considered in-sourced work.

In the event that the TAESL joint venture shrinks by 25% or more versus the full year 2011 period, or is terminated, the outsourcing limits will be adjusted accordingly. Further adjustments will be made at each additional shrinkage of 25%, or more, versus the full year 2011 period.

So when Taesl repairs engines and replaces parts on those engines for other airlines, expensive parts I'd assume, those costs get added to the 65%. The more work Taesl does the more they Airframe, you know the labor intensive stuff that drives heads, they can outsource.

WN saw pay raises with minimal job increases. Bob, how are you going to get us to WN type wages?

Did I say WN wages? I dont think its unreasonable to expect UAL wages though.

Now if I had hired in at WN I would have been adamantly opposed to outsourcing to El Salvador when they already have so much freedom to outsource in the US.

But you voted to allow AA to do it, with no limits other than the 35% of maintenance "Spend", which includes parts bought for other airlines engines.

 

[Rogallo]

whata ya say, tinkerbell, realityck

 

[Overspeed]

And the mechanics at AA get paid a lot less than mechanics are paid at UA, WN, US and CO. A lot less. We have a Walmart contract, you treat the members like porkbellies, a commodity, make up for price by adding volume. Sad, the AFL-CIO runs around saying "Our Labor is not a Commodity" and you go around promoting the idea that its ok to pay half as much if you employ twice as many.

Negative. I go around explaining the truth. UA, WN, US, and CO have far less AMTs than AA even under the new language. You never tell the whole story Bob. You are quite alright with stepping over the bodies of overhaul AMT jobs that all those unions walked away from in BK except WN where AMFA is not willing to man up and fight to bring them in-house. You treat overhaul members like they are nothing but pawns to be sacrificed in your chess match. As long as Bob the King is left standing in JFK, that's a win to you.

You are weak and pathetic in the way you are willing to treat overhaul jobs as an acceptable casualty in your BS war for line AMTs only. I am a line AMT and I will NOT throw my fellow members away like they are cannon fodder. You want to be a bad ass and risk jobs, risk your own tough guy. You are wrapped in a seniority security blanket and know full well you will still be standing after abrogation. Letting others take the hit, that's not tough, that's weak.

 

[Overspeed]

You make it sound like we have no choice, ever hear of the concept of fighting back, like the pilots are doing?




"To allow the company certain flexibility in outsourcing Aircraft-related Maintenance, the company and the Union have agreed to establish limits on the amount of work the company may outsource, including the work that is currently outsourced. "Aircraft-related Maintenance" shall be defined as work involving the maintenance, repair, servicing, overhaul, inspection or modification of engines, components or aircraft. The Company and the Union agree to limit the percentage of all outsourced Aircraft-related Maintenance to not exceed 35%, subject to exclusions or modifications described elsewhere in this agreement. Further, the parties also agree that no more than 15% of Line Maintenance work will be contracted out."

I'm guessing it means this:
"In order to reflect the benefit to the TWU of performing work on non-AA operated aircraft, the parties agree that the above-defined Labor Cost and Material Cost is intended to include such costs even when incurred in the performance of non-AA aircraft-related maintenance, including at TAESL, so long as such work is performed by TWU represented employees in accordance with the rates of pay, rules, and working conditions in the TWU/AA Agreement. It is the parties’ intention that work performed by persons on the American Airlines Transport Workers Union Title I seniority list, including at TAESL or other entity, is considered in-sourced work.

In the event that the TAESL joint venture shrinks by 25% or more versus the full year 2011 period, or is terminated, the outsourcing limits will be adjusted accordingly. Further adjustments will be made at each additional shrinkage of 25%, or more, versus the full year 2011 period.

So when Taesl repairs engines and replaces parts on those engines for other airlines, expensive parts I'd assume, those costs get added to the 65%. The more work Taesl does the more they Airframe, you know the labor intensive stuff that drives heads, they can outsource.








Did I say WN wages? I dont think its unreasonable to expect UAL wages though.






But you voted to allow AA to do it, with no limits other than the 35% of maintenance "Spend", which includes parts bought for other airlines engines.

They are fighting a battle that will end up with them getting it shoved up their tails. USAPA is still under a TRO from their job action. And it was made permanent. Nice win for labor. Set a great precedent for all other unions. Great job independent craft union!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204226204576599142580880816.html

So you did not answer my question, what are the exclusions? Could it be small volume work where AA does not own the overhaul equipment. Spend millions of dollars on something that we do once in a while? And the expense is still part of the outsourcing formula isn't it? Did you ask? Do you know? You make accusations without facts all the time Bob.

If AA work done at TAESL is brought in-house it will be still be part of the 65%. Work done by AA for others, if it goes to some place like SAESL then the formula would need to be adjusted. Why? Because TWU workers are doing the work for other airlines. If RR pulls out of TAESL they signed the contracts with those airlines, not AA. So they would take the work and therefore those jobs. AA supplies the labor as part of the JV and the TWU CBA requires it be staffed with TWU members. Does ours or any other scope clause require their members to do work for another company? No.

Bob, this is where you clearly own why we are now making $33/hour. You and your vote no coalition. We HAD better than UA wages!!! In May 2010!!! You said vote no remember. BK was a scare tactic, there was more money on the table, etc... What a short term memory you have. Convenient. MCTs took their deal and the are STILL getting their wages and they get the pay raises on top of it. Smooth move EXLAX!

I did vote yes for May 2010 and this one. Your rhetoric was leading us to more carnage. The parts are included which makes sense if we are also doing the work.

Again, you never fully understand what you are talking about but hey, you can see Wall Street from your house.

 

[DNTULSA]

Ok. That was an extremely insightful response.

Did you think that voting no would have stopped outsourcing? AA would have seized on the opportunity to go crazy. The 3/22 term sheet would have allowed 40% outsourcing of work PLUS all existing outsourced work. Read the term sheet. That would have been the 10% that is TAESL, the 10% we currently outsource, plus...PLUS the 40% and that is 60% brother with NO cap on line outsourcing. Then after all the job loss carnage people with pre 1990 seniority might be able to get $42/hour. That's a win? Okay.

It was a straightforward and truthful answer; something that you are incapable of producing.

You fear an AMFA takeover of the AA AMT's.

It would leave you without a spot to hiss in!