IBT No Show Forum

[AvTech04]

Remember this post you made?

Now read it as if I wrote it to you.

Take what we are offering and let's just move on.

And I have to agree with you. The AT committee has not kept to their word thus far, mostly thanks to its Atlanta members. So, since I can't say for certian what they are going to do next, because it's not what they're telling us, I am forced to agree with you. If it ends up being a 4 year vote then it's going to be a close one on both sides. Not so many people are on the payscale bandwagon anymore especially since a lot at Airtran believe that SWA is going to ask, or demand, concessions soon. No one can say they know for certian whether or no that will happen, but you know how word on the hangar floor spreads like a wildfire.

I guess the point I was trying to make before was, since I wasn't very clear, since we're the ones taking the hit on the seniority, then I think it just to be fair that it be done on our terms. Meaning, I we wanted to give percentages rather than years then let us go that route or if we wanted to take a loss on our seniority, let us go that route. Instead, AMFA is making us negotiate away our seniority. I'm not trying to sound like an ass on here I'm just trying to explain further what I mean. Like many have said before, SWA guys lives don't change here, you have nothing to gain or really lose either, so if you want me to give you a good show of faith, allow me to do it on my terms especially since so much is changing for AT mech's, some for the better and some for the worst. I hope what i was trying to say makes more sense explained that way.

I can tell you that if a 4 year offer were placed in front of me right now, today, I would probably vote yes just to get this over with. Of course only if there are no strings attached. Meaning, that LOA is gone and no protected stations or slots. To me, all those "protections" really only bring more harm than good because I limits us to what a unionized group is supposed to stand for and that's fairness for all and equal treatment.

Anyway, I wish the best outcome for all of us, SWA and AT alike, and hope for a bright future as one airline.

 

[WNMECH]

Exactly. I couldn't have said it much better.
And now you sound reasonable.

Only you guys should not think any change is for the worst.
You all need to lighten up, come aboard and enjoy all this company has to offer.

You guys fighting us and the company is just a recipe for disaster.
If you guys alienate us and the company, who is going to want to be on your side in the future.

 

[curious1]

As far as the one poster comparing this to the US/HP pilots, cmon dude, you are talking thousands upon thousands of pilots vs 350 mechs,, nice try but save the drama. You have been watching too many soap operas with your wife, or Nancy Grace.

Drama? Are you kidding me? Have you read the southwest posts? If it goes to arbitration and Air Tran guys get straight seniority or even better, 4 years added to their seniority which is what the other guys are trying to do then what do you think will happen???? Do you think the SWA guys will accept it? Never! They will keep AT guys separated with lower wages and then watch as the company slowly dismantles the Air Tran netork and those guys start to lose their jobs (assuming Southwest ever figures out how to do a simple codeshare or accept international res). If this goes to arbitration there will be nothing but drama and it will be drawn out, long battle probably worse than the US pilots, which is why I said that I would hope that the Air Tran guys accept the 4 years and then the company can move on without it being like the pilot situation at US. Read the posts of all the SWA guys who predict what will happen if it goes to arbitration and how they get protections from their LOA which protects them but not AT and then talk to me about drama buddy.

 

[AvTech04]

Drama? Are you kidding me? Have you read the southwest posts? If it goes to arbitration and Air Tran guys get straight seniority or even better, 4 years added to their seniority which is what the other guys are trying to do then what do you think will happen???? Do you think the SWA guys will accept it? Never! They will keep AT guys separated with lower wages and then watch as the company slowly dismantles the Air Tran netork and those guys start to lose their jobs (assuming Southwest ever figures out how to do a simple codeshare or accept international res). If this goes to arbitration there will be nothing but drama and it will be drawn out, long battle probably worse than the US pilots, which is why I said that I would hope that the Air Tran guys accept the 4 years and then the company can move on without it being like the pilot situation at US. Read the posts of all the SWA guys who predict what will happen if it goes to arbitration and how they get protections from their LOA which protects them but not AT and then talk to me about drama buddy.

Not advocating this but you have to keep in mind that an arbitrator could reciprocate that LOA that SWA mechs have onto AT mechs, virtually voiding it out, and it's a very good possibility that's the route an arbitrator would have to take in order to rule, if it gets that far.

 

[lineguy]

Not advocating this but you have to keep in mind that an arbitrator could reciprocate that LOA that SWA mechs have onto AT mechs, virtually voiding it out, and it's a very good possibility that's the route an arbitrator would have to take in order to rule, if it gets that far.

HOGWASH

 

[MadMan337]

Not advocating this but you have to keep in mind that an arbitrator could reciprocate that LOA that SWA mechs have onto AT mechs, virtually voiding it out, and it's a very good possibility that's the route an arbitrator would have to take in order to rule, if it gets that far.

Can't happen. Arbitrators do not have the jusrisdiction to amend a CBA. They can only make rulings on its intent or, in this case, a fair and equitable seniority list integration.

 

[MadMan337]

I am reading a lot of posts from AT mechanics saying we should meet them in the middle and move off the proposal of 4 years. There is another compromise that could be struck. AT could keep all their seniority and agree to a separate pay scale on their transiton agreement that would keep them on the IBT payscale and within a similar benefits package as currently provided by AT. This way you guys keep all your seniority and we don't have an arguement that you are getting a big raise.
As unrealistic as this idea sounds, the idea we need to meet in the middle from our 4 year proposal on the premise of compromising is just as unrealistic. The 4 year proposal is fair and and will not affect the vast majority of the AT mechanic's quality of life. Most will maintain exactly the shifts and days off they have now for years to come. Yes, as better shifts and days off are created and offered the AT mechanics will be at a slight seniority disadvantage in MCO, BWI and DAL where we commingle.

 

[swamt]

Not advocating this but you have to keep in mind that an arbitrator could reciprocate that LOA that SWA mechs have onto AT mechs, virtually voiding it out, and it's a very good possibility that's the route an arbitrator would have to take in order to rule, if it gets that far.

An arbitrator cannot touch anything in our CBA. Cannot extend anything in our contract to any body. The only thing an arbitrator can do is integrate a senority list. They have no leagal means to touch the CBA. Dude, this is why alot of the SWA mechs are not afraid of an arbitrators ruling, the LOA would stay in tact for ever. Not sure where you are getting this info but whoever told you that is wrong. If it's one of the ibt's quotes they are completely wrong. BTW; it would take a judge to make change, thought we have all been down this road already.

 

[swamt]

I have to agree with MadMan. We are not moving off the 4 yrs guys. Look at all the stuff the AT mechs are gaining. We all know about the economics they are recieving. Not only are they keeping thier DOH, they are getting the SWA guys to forego the LOA that has iron clad protections for "ALL" SWA mechs. You guys should be thankfull were not asking for 6-8 years. Like it has been posted before, alot of people say for the LOA it would take 6-8 years, so you are starting out with alot of no votes to start with. The nego cmte is going to have to work hard to try and sell this to the fence sitters on the 4 years. You guys need to understand this, the 4 years only brings it out to the membership for a vote. The cmte has been hearing that that is what it will take (minimum) in order to have a chance to pass, but no garrentee.

 

[AvTech04]

Again, not advocating, simply explaining. If the IBT presents the march 29th LOA under the jurisdiction of the article pertaining to seniority, the yes, an arbitrator can reciprocate it as a guideline to the SLI. An arbitrator can simply explain intent and can set guidelines fairly. For examples, an arbitrator can rule DOH across the board with the guideline that no mechanic originally integrated from the AirTran seniority list can be displaced, furloughed or laid off with out just cause before anyone already existing in said decided seniority list. This is just an example of a possiblilty. They are not amending an existing contractual agreement, simply setting a guideline on how the SLI is to be handled. Like, for example again, the AA, TWA merger. I learned that the arbitrator ruled that all mechanics would receive DOH in their existing station and the guideline was, I they were to move to another station, either voluntary or displaced, they would fall to the bottom of decided seniority list for a period of 3 years, the reaccure their original seniority.

Again, not advocating arbitration, simply explaining how as arbitrator maybe limited to the SLI but does have a right to set a guideline of how the SLI is to be followed. It could also be grieved and arbitrated as to which holds more precedence, the LOA, the company handbook, or the articles pertaining to displacement. Just throwing a couple of possibilities out there to show you that even that LOA isn't iron clad.

And for the last time, I'm NOT posting this to advocate arbitration. Maybe 6 months ago I would've been, but not now since the AT committee and IBT screwed everything up so bad!!

 

[AvTech04]

I have to agree with MadMan. We are not moving off the 4 yrs guys. Look at all the stuff the AT mechs are gaining. We all know about the economics they are recieving. Not only are they keeping thier DOH, they are getting the SWA guys to forego the LOA that has iron clad protections for "ALL" SWA mechs. You guys should be thankfull were not asking for 6-8 years. Like it has been posted before, alot of people say for the LOA it would take 6-8 years, so you are starting out with alot of no votes to start with. The nego cmte is going to have to work hard to try and sell this to the fence sitters on the 4 years. You guys need to understand this, the 4 years only brings it out to the membership for a vote. The cmte has been hearing that that is what it will take (minimum) in order to have a chance to pass, but no garrentee.

I agree with you! You shouldn't move off the 4 years. That I WILL advocate. It may not be an even trade off, but who cares anymore. I say put the 4 years to vote, stop screwing around and I will sell it myself to as many people as possible. I no longer have faith or trust in the AT committee and would rather vote and support the AMFA committee at this point! They're going to be our future reps anyways!

 

[swamt]

Again, not advocating, simply explaining. If the IBT presents the march 29th LOA under the jurisdiction of the article pertaining to seniority, the yes, an arbitrator can reciprocate it as a guideline to the SLI. An arbitrator can simply explain intent and can set guidelines fairly. For examples, an arbitrator can rule DOH across the board with the guideline that no mechanic originally integrated from the AirTran seniority list can be displaced, furloughed or laid off with out just cause before anyone already existing in said decided seniority list. This is just an example of a possiblilty. They are not amending an existing contractual agreement, simply setting a guideline on how the SLI is to be handled. Like, for example again, the AA, TWA merger. I learned that the arbitrator ruled that all mechanics would receive DOH in their existing station and the guideline was, I they were to move to another station, either voluntary or displaced, they would fall to the bottom of decided seniority list for a period of 3 years, the reaccure their original seniority.

Again, not advocating arbitration, simply explaining how as arbitrator maybe limited to the SLI but does have a right to set a guideline of how the SLI is to be followed. It could also be grieved and arbitrated as to which holds more precedence, the LOA, the company handbook, or the articles pertaining to displacement. Just throwing a couple of possibilities out there to show you that even that LOA isn't iron clad.

And for the last time, I'm NOT posting this to advocate arbitration. Maybe 6 months ago I would've been, but not now since the AT committee and IBT screwed everything up so bad!!

AvTech04,
I know you are not wanting arbitration or advocating it. I know others will twist it up for you. I don't know where you are getting your info, it sounds like you are getting it from the teamsters/ibt or your nego cmte. An arbitrator has no jurisdiction to change anything in our contract. An arbitrator can (I believe) set guidelines, but cannot set guide lines that are a direct conflict to the CBA, your senario above would be a direct conflict to the CBA. The only option to address the crrent March 29 LOA is to file for a contestament to get a ruling on the LOA from a judge. This procees thru our leagal systems will take years to get a final decision on. This is just one of the leagalities that would have to be worked out prior to an arbitrators ruling can be applied. That's only if the represental union was to contest such LOA. Remember all the decertifying talk? AMFA wishes this would happen so they can deal with nego cmte directly instead of the political agenda teamsters and ibt. We were told it was very obvious at the table that the teamsters/ibt still has control over nego. If your members don't get control of the nego cmte instead of the teamsters/ibt I have a bad feeling this is going to arbitration. You see the teamsters/ibt are trying to do whatever they can to try and stick it to the AMFA/SWA mechanics (payback). They are doing this at the expence of the AT mechs. They are pissing off the company by not allowing the AT guys to directly deal with this integration. You guys have seen the alot of the monies go buy-buy, as well as some other perks. You all can thank your political teamsters and ibt for all that. And if they don't allow you guys to vote on the 4 years, you can thank them for the final outcome of that as well. We told you guys from day one how the teamsters/ibt was going to handle your integration and for those of you following all this since the beginning can now see it is going just as we have been telling you guys.
Sorry for rambling. BTW, forgot to welcome you back AvTech. Welcome back. Everone needs a breather every now and then...

 

[swamt]

I agree with you! You shouldn't move off the 4 years. That I WILL advocate. It may not be an even trade off, but who cares anymore. I say put the 4 years to vote, stop screwing around and I will sell it myself to as many people as possible. I no longer have faith or trust in the AT committee and would rather vote and support the AMFA committee at this point! They're going to be our future reps anyways!

My last post (long post) was typed before reading this one, so it may look like more rambling...

 

[Airmech737]

Again, not advocating, simply explaining. If the IBT presents the march 29th LOA under the jurisdiction of the article pertaining to seniority, the yes, an arbitrator can reciprocate it as a guideline to the SLI. An arbitrator can simply explain intent and can set guidelines fairly. For examples, an arbitrator can rule DOH across the board with the guideline that no mechanic originally integrated from the AirTran seniority list can be displaced, furloughed or laid off with out just cause before anyone already existing in said decided seniority list. This is just an example of a possiblilty. They are not amending an existing contractual agreement, simply setting a guideline on how the SLI is to be handled. Like, for example again, the AA, TWA merger. I learned that the arbitrator ruled that all mechanics would receive DOH in their existing station and the guideline was, I they were to move to another station, either voluntary or displaced, they would fall to the bottom of decided seniority list for a period of 3 years, the reaccure their original seniority.

Again, not advocating arbitration, simply explaining how as arbitrator maybe limited to the SLI but does have a right to set a guideline of how the SLI is to be followed. It could also be grieved and arbitrated as to which holds more precedence, the LOA, the company handbook, or the articles pertaining to displacement. Just throwing a couple of possibilities out there to show you that even that LOA isn't iron clad.

And for the last time, I'm NOT posting this to advocate arbitration. Maybe 6 months ago I would've been, but not now since the AT committee and IBT screwed everything up so bad!!

For my future brothers is AT, please understand the arbitration process has been agreed to by all three parties. I have seen and held a SIGNED copy. Signed by AMFA, SWA and your own IBT Rep and your Business Agent. Maybe you need to hunt them down to ask to see it.

This document is only five pages long. It details how the sides will select the three arbitrators and their powers/authority. It specifically says the jurisdiction is they will combine the seniority lists in their opinion of fair and equitable. Resolve any dispute in the Final Award LOOK HERE ----> provided that neither its Final Award, nor any interpretation thereof, may modify the terms of any existing CBA... Meaning that should we go to arbitration, IBT has agreed the March 29th letter stays in place. Also the Master list shall become effective after a single union is in place and after a single CBA is agreed upon.

Look, 4 years is alot, but really, it is all the SWA guys are getting. There are agruments on your side against this, believe me I have heard them all, probably. But from the SWA guy, this is the only thing they recieve in this and that is with the dilution of the list. Everything that is in the SWA transition document will benefit the AT guys too once they change to Canyon Blue.

 

[WNMECH]

My question to the Airtran guys is this:

Why do you think the IBT signed the arbitration agreement that clearly leaves our LOA in tact?

And why have they not explained that fact to their Airtran members ?


Seems like the Teamsters lawyer is keeping some secrets from their dues paying members.

Wow, I am so surprised.

Not.