IBT No Show Forum

[Swadl]

Someone please explain why the AT mechanics can't come back(if they want to) to the table and make a deal without IBT??? If IBT says no only arbitration, then why can't AT mechanics say no fu&k that we are going to the table and coming up with a different option???

 

[AvTech04]

And to clarify, IBT is not going to decertify the AT members. I don't even think there's a such thing as decertification, but they will file for arbitration "on our behalf" and file for single union representation which will pass and we will all be AMFA during the arbitraion process or negotiations, which ever comes first. That's what I believe is the most probable path the IBT will take. And they'll do it with "full support" of their union members, or that's what they'll publicly claim.

Or, they'll file for arbitration and publicly sue AMFA and SWA for the March 29th LOA and state that it was a direct interference with the merger negotiations and would win because it's should have been a 3 party agreement, and they'll use that for evidence that AMFA is "illegally" trying to postpone an arbitrators decision with that LOA.

Either way, it's going to get ugly if this goes to arbitration. Non of the scenarios is a win win for anyone and AT mechanics virtually have no say in their own future. It's all in the hands of the SWA mechanics, as seen per the DFW LOA.

I have to say, you guys really showed your asses with that rejection of the DFW LOA. It wouldn't of hurt anyone to let those guys in the DAL. It's just 9 of them!! It wasn't the companies fault, not Airtran's, nor the mechanics faults that DFW was shutdown, it was because a stupid legislation and the purchase that force those guys away from their families and forced them to commute and live out of a suitcase and they didn't even get a word to say about it... That was some $hitty luv displayed there. I know the argument, no special treatment, it's a union deal with it, blah blah. But this was a special situation and you guys unnecessarily screwed your future union brothers over for no good reason!! What about the California guys?? No one argued about their special arrangement years ago!!

Why do I even bother, I'm ranting on deaf ears. You guys aren't really a union brotherin. It's obvious that loyalty to the craft doesn't exist, it's only about what you can get, screw the other guy!! That was a really $hitty deal, I'm highly disappointed. Hopefully none of you are ever in that situation and your fellow craftsmen don't screw you over the way you screwed those guys over...

 

[WNMECH]

[quote name='AvTech04' timestamp='1329488041' post='

Why do I even bother, I'm ranting on deaf ears. You guys aren't really a union brotherin. It's obvious that loyalty to the craft doesn't exist, it's only about what you can get, screw the other guy!! That was a really $hitty deal, I'm highly disappointed. Hopefully none of you are ever in that situation and your fellow craftsmen don't screw you over the way you screwed those guys


It is clearly NOT only about what we can get.
This was the only loa that offered us anything and it was rejected on the priciple of equal treatment of all.
Yet you want doh because you think it is equal treatment of all.
I guess it is only fair when we bend over for aittran employees.

 

[grmach1]

I have to say, you guys really showed your asses with that rejection of the DFW LOA. It wouldn't of hurt anyone to let those guys in the DAL. It's just 9 of them!! It wasn't the companies fault, not Airtran's, nor the mechanics faults that DFW was shutdown, it was because a stupid legislation and the purchase that force those guys away from their families and forced them to commute and live out of a suitcase and they didn't even get a word to say about it... That was some $hitty luv displayed there. I know the argument, no special treatment, it's a union deal with it, blah blah. But this was a special situation and you guys unnecessarily screwed your future union brothers over for no good reason!! What about the California guys?? No one argued about their special arrangement years ago!!

Why do I even bother, I'm ranting on deaf ears. You guys aren't really a union brotherin. It's obvious that loyalty to the craft doesn't exist, it's only about what you can get, screw the other guy!! That was a really $hitty deal, I'm highly disappointed. Hopefully none of you are ever in that situation and your fellow craftsmen don't screw you over the way you screwed those guys over...
[/quote]
You're not a Swa mechanic therefore you don't see things from our perspective. Second we both have cba's covering this kind of event and we wanted it followed. It's a shame you didn't. Don't be spouting off about union brotherin either. Read your cba. We all know that is part of working at an airline. If you can't or won't handle it then get out!

 

[AvTech04]

There was no rhyme nor reason to not let those guys work in DAL except for that fact that they are AirTran. All you guys are seeing is the now and not the later. Yea, our CBA stipulates what to do when a station is closed or a reduction in force is done, and so does your CBA, that's why the LOA process exists. It gives the union and the company an opportunity to make decisions that might be covered under the CBA but are not specific to a certain situation. That's why the DFW LOA was made. It was a special situation with special circumstances and you guys voted it down out of spite for the Airtran mechanics... It's pathitic and sad. It all boiled down to a childish antic and instead of getting over your anguish towards the SLI, you decided to 'show us' and not allow them to stay with their families or stay in their homes... And you use he excuse that you just want things to be fair but, like I mentioned before, SWA had a similar situation with a station in California and AMFA didn't think twice about making a special arrangement for them... I spoke to your west coast DOM, I think his name was Jack, short balled guy, and he told me the whole story of what you guys allowed for your fellow AMFA brothers to do in either LAX or San Diego, or one of those cities. Anyways, you allowed SWA to give them special treatment to other stations with out so much as a peep or complaint!!

Yea, we all know the risk involved in aviation, and your using that as an excuse to justify your vote. Why not be honest? Why don't you just admit that you didn't want any Airtran mechanics to get any special 'privilege' even though they're being forced out unnecessarily!!

You said that we scream DOH, WRONG, we went behind our own unions back to try and negotiate something with you and our first offer was a 25% cut in our seniority, but the AMFA committee refused and counter offered with a staple proposal! The Airtran mechanics where furious at the AMFA response, seeing as we offered and conced and they slapped us in the face with a staple, that we told our committee no more than 10%.. We NEVER expected a DOH/DOC even though it's the fairest way to merge any senority list and AMFA is a huge advocate of that!

Lastly, I'm a little tipsy and pissed, you guys say you want it all done and over with yet you setup these little fences and games to prolong the integration, if necessary, because you already have everything and have nothing to lose. Then, you complain that all these changes are coming about because if AirTran and we're nothing but bad for SWA. You guys can't say a single positive thing about this merger and the negativity is getting really old, really fast. Blame Airtran for all the bad and screw them over while your at it. Like I said, I don't know why I even bother posting any of this because you really don't care, for you it's a game while for us it's a unexpected and unnecessary stress on our lives. Those DFW guys are good guys and you screwed them over for no good #### reason except with the lame excuse of the fairness and CBA.. That's a bunch of BS!

I'm losing my head here and I know it, but this DFW situation really got to me... Especially knowing that you turned a blind eye when SWA did the exact same thing to some SWA mechs in California...

 

[Swadl]

AVTech04--- it was LAX btw and we didn't let the company do anything special! We told them you can't just shut down line Ron and we fought it! The end result was all the LAX mechanics stayed in LAX they closed line Ron down and created new spots on days and eves. There was no special deal there. Our contract was followed to the letter of abolishing spots and creating new spots. And as you say AT offered a 25% reduction in yalls seniority is somewhat correct, but then the very next day your Comte took that offer back and that's when we said staple. You don't nego and offer something then get buyers remorse and take it back, that's not how you negotiate. And remember it was a majority vote not a single person.

 

[Swadl]

AVTech04-- one more thing about 4-5 years ago SWA did a reduction in force at BNA we fought it and lost. Those 4-5 mechanics could either bid BNA GSE or exercise there seniority, or quit. I personally know two of the guys that had to leave BNA and they went to PHX. They excerized their seniority and our contract was followed.

 

[Swadl]

Anyway I understand why your upset and I'm in no way trying to be argumentative with you so please don't take what I said to you in a bad way. Anyways enjoy your adult beverage and time off.

 

[grmach1]

There was no rhyme nor reason to not let those guys work in DAL except for that fact that they are AirTran. All you guys are seeing is the now and not the later. Yea, our CBA stipulates what to do when a station is closed or a reduction in force is done, and so does your CBA, that's why the LOA process exists. It gives the union and the company an opportunity to make decisions that might be covered under the CBA but are not specific to a certain situation. That's why the DFW LOA was made. It was a special situation with special circumstances and you guys voted it down out of spite for the Airtran mechanics... It's pathitic and sad. It all boiled down to a childish antic and instead of getting over your anguish towards the SLI, you decided to 'show us' and not allow them to stay with their families or stay in their homes... And you use he excuse that you just want things to be fair but, like I mentioned before, SWA had a similar situation with a station in California and AMFA didn't think twice about making a special arrangement for them... I spoke to your west coast DOM, I think his name was Jack, short balled guy, and he told me the whole story of what you guys allowed for your fellow AMFA brothers to do in either LAX or San Diego, or one of those cities. Anyways, you allowed SWA to give them special treatment to other stations with out so much as a peep or complaint!!

Yea, we all know the risk involved in aviation, and your using that as an excuse to justify your vote. Why not be honest? Why don't you just admit that you didn't want any Airtran mechanics to get any special 'privilege' even though they're being forced out unnecessarily!!

You said that we scream DOH, WRONG, we went behind our own unions back to try and negotiate something with you and our first offer was a 25% cut in our seniority, but the AMFA committee refused and counter offered with a staple proposal! The Airtran mechanics where furious at the AMFA response, seeing as we offered and conced and they slapped us in the face with a staple, that we told our committee no more than 10%.. We NEVER expected a DOH/DOC even though it's the fairest way to merge any senority list and AMFA is a huge advocate of that!

Lastly, I'm a little tipsy and pissed, you guys say you want it all done and over with yet you setup these little fences and games to prolong the integration, if necessary, because you already have everything and have nothing to lose. Then, you complain that all these changes are coming about because if AirTran and we're nothing but bad for SWA. You guys can't say a single positive thing about this merger and the negativity is getting really old, really fast. Blame Airtran for all the bad and screw them over while your at it. Like I said, I don't know why I even bother posting any of this because you really don't care, for you it's a game while for us it's a unexpected and unnecessary stress on our lives. Those DFW guys are good guys and you screwed them over for no good #### reason except with the lame excuse of the fairness and CBA.. That's a bunch of BS!

I'm losing my head here and I know it, but this DFW situation really got to me... Especially knowing that you turned a blind eye when SWA did the exact same thing to some SWA mechs in California...

Your problem with this whole thing is it was OUR decision and not yours. The first time that our management team couldn't make it all roses for you. Deal with it.

 

[swamt]

This right here says it all. We both feel the same way. We pay our dues, ultimately, for our seniority. Doesn't matter what company or what union, we ALL pay for the same thing. But soon we'll be paying dues to AMFA, one way or another. So where do you draw the line?? We are all, SWA mechs and AT mechs, dues paying members and we all deserve the best for our money.

Good question. I guess we continue to nego until all can agree to something. I know that's vegue but all I can see happening. The down side for all of us is of course arbitration. All in all, the company does not care what SWA and AT mechanics get in senority, they just want this done ASAP. I think they too think this will be done in 90 days if it goes to arbitration.

 

[swamt]

Hey AvTech04;
I believe you stated in your post the the SWA mechanics were only looking at the now and not down the road or future. This is not true at all. If we accepted this LOA, it could quite poss. come back and haunt us down the road. Future mergers are more than likely going to happen. Other airline mechanics would expect simple LOA's to protect their members, and could very well send chaos throught our system depending on the senority coming in. This will also help protect the AT guys in future mergers as well. So don't just say we are just looking out for ourselves. If this was true it would have passed do to the 401K match. I hear guys on the floor saying "I can't believe the DFW LOA didn't pass" "that where all the money was" these are all mechanics that only see "the now" and never look out down the road. This is just one reason, there are many many more but you already know most of them. I do feel sorry for the DFW guys, BUT, there will be plenty of oppertunity's for them to get to Dal. I would even be willing to bet the company will post bids untill they get here. Were gonna be hiring for Dal here shortly anyway. The last bid left some openings in Dal, with no out stations taking the trickle into Dal. So doesn't look like the AT guys would have much of a problem getting to Dal. It's only temporary guys. And as you have stated, comes with this industry. We have SWA mechanics commuting right now out of there home stations. As long as the company will honor their hiring comitments starting in April for the 4th line the DFW guys could very well be in Dal by April, IF we get something voted in on the senority agreement by then.

 

[swamt]

And to clarify, IBT is not going to decertify the AT members. I don't even think there's a such thing as decertification, but they will file for arbitration "on our behalf" and file for single union representation which will pass and we will all be AMFA during the arbitraion process or negotiations, which ever comes first. That's what I believe is the most probable path the IBT will take. And they'll do it with "full support" of their union members, or that's what they'll publicly claim.

Or, they'll file for arbitration and publicly sue AMFA and SWA for the March 29th LOA and state that it was a direct interference with the merger negotiations and would win because it's should have been a 3 party agreement, and they'll use that for evidence that AMFA is "illegally" trying to postpone an arbitrators decision with that LOA.

Either way, it's going to get ugly if this goes to arbitration. Non of the scenarios is a win win for anyone and AT mechanics virtually have no say in their own future. It's all in the hands of the SWA mechanics, as seen per the DFW LOA.

I have to say, you guys really showed your asses with that rejection of the DFW LOA. It wouldn't of hurt anyone to let those guys in the DAL. It's just 9 of them!! It wasn't the companies fault, not Airtran's, nor the mechanics faults that DFW was shutdown, it was because a stupid legislation and the purchase that force those guys away from their families and forced them to commute and live out of a suitcase and they didn't even get a word to say about it... That was some $hitty luv displayed there. I know the argument, no special treatment, it's a union deal with it, blah blah. But this was a special situation and you guys unnecessarily screwed your future union brothers over for no good reason!! What about the California guys?? No one argued about their special arrangement years ago!!

Why do I even bother, I'm ranting on deaf ears. You guys aren't really a union brotherin. It's obvious that loyalty to the craft doesn't exist, it's only about what you can get, screw the other guy!! That was a really $hitty deal, I'm highly disappointed. Hopefully none of you are ever in that situation and your fellow craftsmen don't screw you over the way you screwed those guys over...

Not arguing here, looking for solid answers. Ok they won't decertify. Thx for the correction. In order to file for single union representation, do we not both have to under a single combined CBA? They can file for it all they want to, but I would think, the AT guys would have to "be able" to work on our metal for a single union representation. There is alot more to all this than what you guys are being told.

This suit you talk about isonly one of the issues that will have to ironed out prior to arbitration ruling. Therefore by filing such suit by the teamsters will drag all this out even further. However, if they are so worried about the March 29 LOA, tell them to get back to the table and make offer to delete This LOA as well as AT's LOA, come up with a senority agreement and vote on it. By doing this it will in fact take alot less time, than filing for arbitration. Nego a week or two and send out for "last and final". The entire process would take 1 month to 11/2 months. As long as the changes made were what everyone has been saying it should pass. If teamsters file for arbitration, this will in fact go on alot longer than getting an agreement at the table. No further coment on the DFW LOA, it is what it is. Those guys will have plenty opertunity to get here shortly after we get SLI done.

 

[At2001]

This is the first time I have posted on this forum. I must say is very interesting to say the least. I have been reading the forum for some time but until now never participated. I would like to begin by saying I pray our two mechanic groups can come to some fair agreement and begin a life long relationship as true union brothers. I hope the SWA mechanics will understand that AT are mechanics just as you and they did not ask nor were ask for this merger or buy out,which every way you wish to perceive it. AT mechanics do come from many airlines with a wide range of skills and experience. They are not what some of you may believe,second rate mechanics. They are very hard workers and very proud mechanics. They have no desire to to disrupt your way of life or change your way of doing things,they actually are looking forward to working with you. But you should treat us fairly. The problem is they don,t know what you want. Your committee signed on to this agreement but did not own up to it when they presented it to you,they state it was the company's agreement but they signed it. If it was not what they liked they should not have agreed to it and bargained further and agreed to something they wanted and what you wanted. They gave no indication to the AT committee they were not satisfied. I realize those on this forum is a small sample of the SWA mechanics but are you the pulse of the SWA as a whole? If this true,what do want to to get this agreement done? Please be honest and state want it will take.
I have read in the past few pages,several thoughts concerning the IBT abandoning the AT mechanics,this not true. They do have a different agenda than ours but that's for another time. Either union can file for single representation to the NMB,which will require AMFA to represent the AT mechanics. Single representation means that AT mechanics will be AMFA members six weeks after the filing,because the IBT will not request a vote as to which union will represent all the mechanics at SWA mechanics. When the single representation is implemented, the IBT is is no longer involved and AMFA must then represent the AT mechanics fairly. But that is for another discussion. All I would like to know, as would every AT mechanic, what do you need to finish this agreement. I guess the question should be what is the consisance of the SWA mechanics,that bring this thing to an end? Thanks,and God bless all.

 

[WNMECH]

At2001,
Welcome to the discussion.
I have not done the math but the IBT says you guys will be getting an average of 35% pay increases plus all our extra AMFA negotiated benefits.
So to answer your question, I would vote for a deal where you give up 35% senority, no fences, one master list and we remove our station protection LOA.
We become one group with nothing between us.

 

[Swadl]

I'm with WNMECH! I'd agree to a 30-35%, and assume the majority would also.