IAM 141 TA discussion

[The Bagfather]

[
On the last TA agreement..I here a main complaint about out sourcing stations. But if I remember right it was only "if those stations dropped below a certain number of flights a day". Just because the contract was voted in does not mean those people lose their jobs.

Black Magic don't fool yourself into thinking this would not happen. Those stations were as good as gone. How long do you think it would take for the number of flights to drop below the stated number. ASAP.

Im thinking that this may have been related to a future merger where
the LLC or whoever might be in control might be able to cut back on flights
for a year or substitute RJs for mainliners. But still there are stations
as we speak that are on the cusp. See you BF

 

[Black Magic]

Yes the language is very vague..but passenger demand and revenue determine the number of flight schedules to destinations. Company is not going to take away flights because of fleet service contracts.

 

[The Bagfather]

Yes the language is very vague..but passenger demand and revenue determine the number of flight schedules to destinations. Company is not going to take away flights because of fleet service contracts.

I don't think the language was vague at all ..very precise as a matter of fact.
But unfortunately I'm not as precise but if I remember the cut off was 69
mainline Flts/week for a year. I think there are a few stations under that right
now. And that doesn't include RJs. But IMO the main reason for that had to
do with complications with a future merger. It gives any merging partner
just that much more flexibility.

But just assume for a second the the LLC knew the old TA had no chance.
Now they can come back and use that idea to drop the pay scale.

BTW I missed the other details of the LLCs latest "offer". Does anybody
know the details besides pay. BF

 

[freedom]

In PHX today RR put up a union posting informing the membership that starting feb 4th we will begin to focus on safety , driving the proper speed limits , not loading an AC without two people in the bins , making sure our tugs are in compliance with the city codes for vehicles driven on the tarmac here in PHX , so on and so forth … I would have written down the points and reposted them here , but management went into our union board where we post things behind locked glass and removed the memo to the workers (at least that‘s what I heard happened ).. It seems suspensions are also on the rise on the ramp … I heard a PM crew got time off for forgetting to off load like 5 bags or something …

 

[freedom]

About ron , yes that's an accurate assentment of him , he’s no friend to the company or DP … and I think you guys will grow to like him … he has a SPINE … this is our MAN that we are sending to you … receive him well .


It's my understanding that Mr Roth suppoerted that last TA. Please clear this up for me.
Thanks...BF

yes if i recall correctly Ron supported the last TA as did i , the entire JNC commite and most of PHX , in fact if i recall correctly , the contract failed to pass because a large majority of the workers were hoping for large back pay checks and pipe dream wages with something called a change of control case.... but my memory is fuzzy so i could be wrong ...

 

[Jester]

A few thoughts..Section 6 for the west sounds like a good idea but I dont think the IAM is going to pursue any time or money into it because it just that "for the west". Kinda like how the CIC was not pushed very hard because it was an east thing. The IAM was holding the west "hostage" in an attempt to also get a contract for the east but that didn't work either.

The CIC was lost but a rumor was the mediator was not pleased with with the pay difference between the two work groups and told the company to fix it immediately. Which brings me to believe that the west is going to have the same pay scale and it is going to be done without a vote. The reality is that one of the reasons AWA aquired US Airways was because of their cheap labor bankruptcy contracts. The company has a cheap labor contract till end of 2009 and they are going to be sure to keep it as long as possible.

On the last TA agreement..I here a main complaint about out sourcing stations. But if I remember right it was only "if those stations dropped below a certain number of flights a day". Just because the contract was voted in does not mean those people lose their jobs.

Black,

I agree with you entirely, as I have stated those views myself on this board many times, except that I would be uncertain as to why the Arbitrator would address the pay inequality as it was not within the scope of the ruling. I think this is just wishful thinking.

Also, for those who think that the TWU contract was all that great, I would state that it was well worth mocking. For example, this idea of inflation adjusted $15.20 is nonsense, because that amount hasn't been adjusted. It is the same amount in 1998 as it is in 2007. And how long to top-out at that rate? 14 years? It takes 6 years just to barely break $10/hour.

A 3% matching 401K? Doesn't mean much with the low pay and those pesky things like bills at home.

How about the uniform allowance? $50 a year? That's 3 pairs of shorts, including shipping and handling.

Two weeks sick pay at 100%? If you are full-time, part-time gets ZERO, NOTHING, NADA!

Double time on six days? Provided you stay within your very narrowly defined shift, exceed 40 hours as asked by the company (no pick-ups or trades), and the company requests or offers overtime, and it is on a strict seniority basis. Not as easy as an excess of five days or 40 hours.

Who could complain about more vacation time? Except in this business dropping days is not the hard part, and substantially higher pay it would be easier to drop (and easier to afford) and I could create my own vacation weeks when desired.

Short and long-term disability? Isn't that a legally mandated Workers Comp issue?

Outsourcing of stations? While an important issue, the overwhelming number of West FS workers in hubs and outstations which would not be effected, although I do think this is the most important positive aspect of the TWU contract relative to the IAM contract.

So Theorizes Jester.

 

[JoeDirt]

Jester
Do you have to pay for your uniforms? We have ours replaced when they get worn or soiled badly or damaged.

 

[john john]

Yes the language is very vague..but passenger demand and revenue determine the number of flight schedules to destinations. Company is not going to take away flights because of fleet service contracts.

If you don’t think staffing of a station inside and outside with vender and express vs mainline doesn’t play a large roll in station budgeting and management decision-making process you better think again. Unions have fought very hard to kept stations from being express and outsource.This is a major issue management always brings up in negations

 

[GoldenRam94]

yes if i recall correctly Ron supported the last TA as did i , the entire JNC commite and most of PHX , in fact if i recall correctly , the contract failed to pass because a large majority of the workers were hoping for large back pay checks and pipe dream wages with something called a change of control case.... but my memory is fuzzy so i could be wrong ...

Pipe Dream is the optimum word! Stated as much a long while back when the first one was shot down. Times they are a changin' and the last best offer may not get duplicated.

Maybe someone can get in touch with the Plumbers Union in PHL. They are pretty powerful and have lots of juice!

 

[The Bagfather]

Black,

I agree with you entirely, as I have stated those views myself on this board many times, except that I would be uncertain as to why the Arbitrator would address the pay inequality as it was not within the scope of the ruling. I think this is just wishful thinking.

Also, for those who think that the TWU contract was all that great, I would state that it was well worth mocking. For example, this idea of inflation adjusted $15.20 is nonsense, because that amount hasn't been adjusted. It is the same amount in 1998 as it is in 2007. And how long to top-out at that rate? 14 years? It takes 6 years just to barely break $10/hour.

A 3% matching 401K? Doesn't mean much with the low pay and those pesky things like bills at home.

How about the uniform allowance? $50 a year? That's 3 pairs of shorts, including shipping and handling.

Two weeks sick pay at 100%? If you are full-time, part-time gets ZERO, NOTHING, NADA!

Double time on six days? Provided you stay within your very narrowly defined shift, exceed 40 hours as asked by the company (no pick-ups or trades), and the company requests or offers overtime, and it is on a strict seniority basis. Not as easy as an excess of five days or 40 hours.

Who could complain about more vacation time? Except in this business dropping days is not the hard part, and substantially higher pay it would be easier to drop (and easier to afford) and I could create my own vacation weeks when desired.

Short and long-term disability? Isn't that a legally mandated Workers Comp issue?

Outsourcing of stations? While an important issue, the overwhelming number of West FS workers in hubs and outstations which would not be effected, although I do think this is the most important positive aspect of the TWU contract relative to the IAM contract.

So Theorizes Jester.

Like I said before I may not have been clear on my intent of that blurb.
The point was to compare that contract with the sept TA. I agree that the TWU
98 contract was mediocre. If the Sept TA had included all the west benifits
listed AND adjusted the pay scale to account for inflation It would have been
far superior to what we saw.

My point is when people talk about doller amounts and relate them to the past
they must take into account inflation. Other wise you get statements
or thoughts like; "were not worth $21.00 and hour" . This may or may not
be the case, but my point is that if you look at the historical wages, $21.00
should not take on near the meaning that some people attach to it.

For instance when Doug Parker makes the claim that Rampers will not see
$21.00 ever again, what does he really mean? Does he mean current dollars?
If so in 5 years when $21.00 may be worth as little as $16.00. I will assume
that he doesn't mean that. I assume that he means when $21.00 was the norm
in his mind and that could be any time in the past. So then he may really
mean something more. The truth of this is I don't really think he had a
clear idea in his mind what he meant other that to say rampers are not
going back to the glory days. But may point is and you may disagree
that in current US[no pun intended] dollars $21.00 isn't close to the glory
days. Take $21.00/hr in 1990 and put it in 2008 terms and you will
get a glory days figure. Thanks BF

 

[Tim Nelson]

I don't think the language was vague at all ..very precise as a matter of fact.
But unfortunately I'm not as precise but if I remember the cut off was 69
mainline Flts/week for a year. I think there are a few stations under that right
now. And that doesn't include RJs. But IMO the main reason for that had to
do with complications with a future merger. It gives any merging partner
just that much more flexibility.

But just assume for a second the the LLC knew the old TA had no chance.
Now they can come back and use that idea to drop the pay scale.

BTW I missed the other details of the LLCs latest "offer". Does anybody
know the details besides pay. BF

BF,

the TA that will be agreed to will be better than the one offered in september due to several reasons. Most importantly because of the solidarity on the ramp.

Because the company needs a new deal, the company will approach the union again and schedule more negotiations because it has to. Remember, Canale and crew told you that if you vote out the last TA then you'll have to wait till 2009. That didn't happen and the company came right back to negotiations just like our network said.

Remember, if the company wants it can wait till 2009, but it doesn't want to as its actions speak for itself. The company needs a transition because of industry developments.

A few items that need to be in the new contract is to secure the 19 stations out west, 60 day layoff abolished, $21hr, snapbacks. Most importantly because of industry consolidation, the COC language MUST STAY in the contract and be enhanced, merger protections increased, including no-layoffs. Bottom line.

If the company can't treat fleet fair then it needs to wait till 2009 and stop wasting our time.

regards,
Tim Nelson
IAM Local Chair, 1487, ORD

 

[mike33]

BF,

A few items that need to be in the new contract is to secure the 19 stations out west, 60 day layoff abolished, $21hr, snapbacks. Most importantly because of industry consolidation, the COC language MUST STAY in the contract and be enhanced, merger protections increased, including no-layoffs. Bottom line.

If the company can't treat fleet fair then it needs to wait till 2009 and stop wasting our time.

Tim

You are spot right on. PSA "Al" is testing our resolve. I don't care what anyone believes. We can squable about 100 different views of 100 diferent areas of the contract negotiations and the only thing that matters is time is running on our side. The longer the work groups remain separated, the longer the " Fast Track " approach to the next merger is stalled. The industry is moving quickly and USairways is starting to lag behind. Aviation has never openly talked about Mergers. DP must feel like he is being left behind after being rejected by DL.

He needs this or its " UNFINISHED BUSSINESS "

 

[Jester]

Jester
Do you have to pay for your uniforms? We have ours replaced when they get worn or soiled badly or damaged.

Joe,

I might have slightly mispoken, because being a part-time I get $50/year, while I think full-time gets $75 or $100/year, and trust me, the company isn't giving any price breaks either. An official AWA winter jacket alone would eat up one's entire allocation for a part-timer and more.

To answer your question, we are given our original uniform (three AWA t-shirts and choice of pants), and told to get shorts with the AWA logo on the bottom pant leg (as that's required, you know), and we can at our expense then pay for navy blue, long pant Dickie's at Wal-Mart (no AWA logo on long pants). Any replacements or additions will either need to come out of the yearly allowance or your own pocket. Many people out West buy either plain ash or navy blue t-shirts and sweat shirts on sale from discount department stores and then cover-up with the safety vest so the lack of an AWA logo is not seen to supervisors or managers. People have been written-up for being out of uniform, but that usually either when someone has a bug up their ass or the clothes are not even remotely close to being blue or ash. Let's not even get into when "The Hat Police" are looking for caps without the company logo. Good to see that when we are running a lousy operation, my non-offensive head wear should become the high priority. In the meanwhile, in PHX I have seen Southwest rampers planeside wearing tall, wide brim sombreros!

So Provides Jester.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim

You are spot right on. PSA "Al" is testing our resolve. I don't care what anyone believes. We can squable about 100 different views of 100 diferent areas of the contract negotiations and the only thing that matters is time is running on our side. The longer the work groups remain separated, the longer the " Fast Track " approach to the next merger is stalled. The industry is moving quickly and USairways is starting to lag behind. Aviation has never openly talked about Mergers. DP must feel like he is being left behind after being rejected by DL.

He needs this or its " UNFINISHED BUSSINESS "

New Union Negotiations Update click here

Agree,

The industry is moving fast, US AIRWAYS must adjust and has to finally recognize labor. Al is the face and eyes of the investors, he does not have horns. The differense is that we are just going to have to make him 'step up to the plate' or risk US AIRWAYS experienceing 'great pain' of falling farther behind industry consolidation.

He went back to the investors and reported the 'far gap' of where they are and fleet service is. The investors are fat and happy and that is why they are trying to score with fleet service first. Remember, in good times, the company wants to settle with fleet service first, then give the mechanics more, then the pilots the rest. In bad times, it goes to the pilots first and then expects others to take what the pilots did.

Al will be back with a better offer. This may take 4 or 5 more times until Al gets it right and does the math on our solidarity. Company Punk, Randy Canale has no 'juice' and has effectively been shoved to the side in these negotiations. His demise is of his own device.

regards,
Tim Nelson
IAM Local Chair, 1487, Chicago

 

[Jester]

Tim

You are spot right on. PSA "Al" is testing our resolve. I don't care what anyone believes. We can squable about 100 different views of 100 diferent areas of the contract negotiations and the only thing that matters is time is running on our side. The longer the work groups remain separated, the longer the " Fast Track " approach to the next merger is stalled. The industry is moving quickly and USairways is starting to lag behind. Aviation has never openly talked about Mergers. DP must feel like he is being left behind after being rejected by DL.

He needs this or its " UNFINISHED BUSSINESS "

You guys need to wake up... we are not the priority in this operation. In case you missed the other threads within this board, the pilots are in an Uncivil War and that's where most merger candidates and investors get nervous. Not to mention it affects the flight attendents in their inability to combine workforces as their schedules revolve around the pilots schedules. And let's not even get into the mechanics, although they are much closer to our situation than the pilots.

I am sure that Parker could just as well continue separate operations for as long as possible with the ramp agents and mechanics. It has worked so far, right? What do you think outsourcing to be? It is contractors doing the work, and isn't that a separate work force controlled by an entirely different company? All airlines do it in various capacities. Frankly, customers don't care either as the public face of the company says, "US Airways" from its website to its liveries to its ticket jackets.

You guys are looking to pull the string, when your only option is to push the string.

So Reminds Jester.