Hints Of Things To Come

[mwereplanes]

Piney said "Why not pay the F/A's, pilots on a "per trip basis"? Like PHL to PIT = 1/hr x rate of pay!

Sorta like a flat rate auto mechanic? This gives everybody a "Known Cost"

Explain to me why that would or wouldn't work, it just sounds like such a simple way way to get things done to me."

Let me tell you my idea. Pay the pilots a salary for, say, 16 days of work. Whatever is negotiated. Then the company schedules as they see fit. If they want you to sit in CLT for 4 hours between flights so be it. If they want to fly you from PIT to CLE and sit you for 4 days so be it. There are a million ways to get more productivity out of pilots and FA's. But the biggest way is to schedule more efficiently. That is how LUV and JetBlue have more productive flight crews. The pilots are not preventing U from scheduling like LUV. Hubbing is doing that. Pay us a salary. Then fly us as you see fit. There is not a pilot around that would prefer sitting to flying. And if you want a true comparison of how productive U's pilots are you need to compare us to DAL, CAL, AMR, NWA, or UAL. Apples to apples for comparison purposes. If we flew linear like LUV then you would see how much more productive we would be with the present work rules.

mr

 

[ktflyhome]

I"m sorry, but I don't feel anyone in this business is Overpaid
. As Flight Crews, we are gone from Base (4-day trip) an average of 75 hrs. This is called "Time Away From Base"...TAFB. Most of our 4-day trips average 21 hours pay anymore. That is an average of 5 Hours flight time. But....we in a sense owned by the company for that 75 hours...they can do and do do what they want with us if irregular ops should arise. Of that 5 hours "Flight time a day" we can be "on duty" anywhere from 8-14 hours, til we get our overnight to rest. We do not get paid for ground time, boarding, deplaning. So in actuality, we have a duty period say of 10 hours but get paid for 5. If we have a vacation day....we get paid 3:09 for a day. Not 8 hours. If we have training(mandatory) we get paid 3:30 not 8 hours of which the training day consists of. So break it all down. We get paid half the time we are actually on duty. I'd like to tell the folks who work a typical 8 hour a day job, 5 days a week, how would they like to work 8 and get paid for 4!!!????

Not to say the least, we are away from home, friends, family and eating out all the time with what grub we can find.

Furthermore, as Reserves go, we are on duty for the Company 21 days a month. that in "Real People Time" is more. Most average folks work 5 days a week in a one month basis which is 20 days a month. : <_<

 

[usfliboi]

Sooooo...... let's see. Siegle is scheduling his pilots way under their max but only flying them an average of 52 hours a month, but he wants them to aquiese to more contractural flying hours per month.

What he's really trying to say, he and his VPs don't have a clue on how to change the business model but he want to do the same work with less pilots. What's he REALLY wants is more work days per month, even if it means crews are sitting around airports most of the time instead of flying, so his scheduling and strategic planning VPs don't have to do their job correctly. Why don't they just put everybody on call for 22-23 days a month?? Or even better, why not have pilots as "day-laborers" so that they're only paid if they get called to work. That way they wouldn't have to worry about paying those greedy lazy workers during slow flying months. With management like this, it's no wonder the company is in trouble.

If Dave had the answer so would every other airline ! NONE OF THEM DO ! They all basically do it this way and for a reason. Bottom line DONT blame Dave for something he has little control over

 

[BoeingBoy]

usfliboi,

In one sense you're right. As long as we remain a downsized old-style hub/spoke airline, Dave has no control over employee productivity other than demand more concessions to make up for the systemic inefficiencies.

Where Dave does have control is in deciding if we remain a downsized old-style hub/spoke airline or not. AMR is transforming itself through systemic efficiencies and, yes, concessions. They have gone from an 80% cost disadvantage vs Southwest to a 20% cost disadvantage in a year. How have we done?

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

For grins, I dug out United's BK filing. In it was a table showing average block hours flown per month by pilots at various airlines. According to that, we were flying 50 hours a month back then. Fast forward thru 2 rounds of work rule changes and we are flying 52 hours now.

By contrast, Southwest was shown as flying 62 hours then vs the reported 67 hours now and I haven't heard of any work-rule changes over there.

Could it be that their management knows something ours doesn't?

Jim

 

[Art at ISP]

I think that most if not all of us agree that a rolling hub at PHL would solve numerous problems, both operationally and financially. My question, then, is WHY HASN'T IT BEEN DONE???

I was under the impression it would be done with the March schedule but since then I have heard nothing.

Even though I am on the outside, I fly enough on U to have a clear insight as to how the company works--not to mention that I have made MANY employee friends with whom I speak regularly. There are other problems to be fixed other than labor (workrule only).

Whatever happened to a RATIONAL fare scheme? NOTHING

The attempt at sane fares (F class sales, etc) was sabotaged by a poorly timed reconfiguration of 757's, removing 75% of inventory in F and ticking off even more FF's.

There are many operational advantages to a rolling hub, but has it been done? NO!

Then there is the disaster with the change in club fees--US has the distinction of being the ONLY airline to try charging extra for access to code share or alliance clubs--even though some may be agains the rules. Their feeble attempt at fundraising will wind up in a mass defection of Preferreds to the Red Carpet Clubs, which will be a better bargain.

This makes me question the true motives of CCY. They have the tools--Northeast routes, the BEST employees in the industry, and in my opinion, some of the most loyal customers, and they only succeed at failure.

My heart goes out to all the employees. I will stay loyal as long as I can, and will see you all back in the field soon.

My best to you all.

 

[Traveler]

Let me tell you my idea. Pay the pilots a salary for, say, 16 days of work. Whatever is negotiated. Then the company schedules as they see fit. If they want you to sit in CLT for 4 hours between flights so be it. If they want to fly you from PIT to CLE and sit you for 4 days so be it. There are a million ways to get more productivity out of pilots and FA's. But the biggest way is to schedule more efficiently. That is how LUV and JetBlue have more productive flight crews. The pilots are not preventing U from scheduling like LUV. Hubbing is doing that. Pay us a salary. Then fly us as you see fit. There is not a pilot around that would prefer sitting to flying. And if you want a true comparison of how productive U's pilots are you need to compare us to DAL, CAL, AMR, NWA, or UAL. Apples to apples for comparison purposes. If we flew linear like LUV then you would see how much more productive we would be with the present work rules.

mr

In a letter to the pilots from the PHL Captain Representative of ALPA, he states:

"... After the announcement of Southwest's arrival in PHL, management began to crank up the rhetoric of labor costs being the problem. Interestingly, our labor costs are 38 percent of total costs at USAirways -- Southwest's are 40 percent. Our pilot costs are 13 percent -- Southwest's are 12 percent. Our 737 captains make $151/hour -- Southwest's make $162/hour.

In 1998 this company made a $1B profit without a single SJ. Delta and Continental, which had access to lots of SJs, made less than we did. An EMB 170/175 costs about as much as an A-319 but has 45 fewer seats. The break-even load factor on that aircraft will be high. In an of themselves, SJs are not the answer.

If we all took a 20 percent pay cut, that would generate approximately $100M in savings. CFO Cohen early last year termed $50M as "noise". In and of themselves, labor costs have reached a level where they are no longer the answer.

Ample tools have been given to management -- it is now up to them."

--------------------------------

There are Pilots at USAirways who fly as many or more hard hours as a Southwest Pilot. The current labor contract doesn't seem to be the restrictive cause of effective Pilot scheduling here. Then, there are the majority of USAirways pilots who fly fewer hard hours than Southwest pilots. Again it's not the Contract which is restricting effective scheduling. The fact is the Company is not generating the same Aircraft utilization as Southwest. When Aircraft sit - Pilots sit. When Aircraft fly - pilots fly. It's as simple as can be stated.

The most important deception in the Comparisons Management would make is how it productively schedules its Pilots. According to current existing contract and Federal Aviation Limitations in place at all Airlines, a Pilot is typically scheduled by Management to only fly 60% to 70% of what this Pilot at USAirways could have, both legally and contractually. The current Contracts are not holding Management back from better Pilot utilization. The fact is they are not managing their assets well. It’s a Business Model and Operational Model Problem – Functions of Management.

The current Operational Model schedules Pilots to sit 4 hours between flights. The current Operational Model schedules Pilots to work on day one of a 4-day trip paring, the second day is spent sitting in a Hotel (unproductive), the third and fourth day work for hard time. Southwest doesn’t schedule in such a manner. Another trip pairing will schedule a pilot to work day one, two and three for hard time, then day four is spent mostly at the Hotel until late into the evening, then the Pilot flys one leg to his domicile to complete his trip paring. Southwest doesn’t schedule in such a manner. None of these examples of trip pairings exist at Southwest. Scheduling is a function of Airline Management. There are no restrictions in current contracts for Pilots to work harder.

The Pilots want to work more efficiently. And they put pressure on the company to do so. How? USAirways pilots have a contract which states simply that the Company has an option... Either work the Pilot hard while he’s away from home or if you are going to let him sit around doing nothing then pay him a minimum amount while he’s on the road away form home and far from his family. Miraculously, with old contracts, the Company used to schedule pilots more effectively to reduce the idle claim time for Pilots. Historically, during contract renegotiations, as the Pilots have given up these minimum guaranteed requirements for pay, the company has scheduled less and less efficiently. The company promised to schedule Pilots more effectively. They did not. The less restrictive the contractual minimum guaranteed pay, the less efficiently Management scheduled pilots. This is not the Case at Southwest. Pilot resources are used more effectively by Management. USAirways Pilots want to work, Management is lost on how to make it happen.

So what is the company driving at with these new requests for contract concessions? Their using rhetoric to give you a magician’s slight of hand. It’s not pilot efficiency they want more of. The current contract allows a pilot to fly for nothing but hard pay time. What the Company wants is less pay to compensate for the ongoing lack of Operational Management and Business Model Reform. They want Pilots to serve more time on duty, away from home, away from family, but... without the obligation to pay him for an inability to use this resource as efficient as Southwest Management. Like the example above, a pilot may spend an entire day in a Hotel, in the middle of a trip paring, without pay. That’s not the Southwest Model management speaks of, which you might have missed with the slight of hand.

All of you are intelligent. You know the truth of this issue. Pilots can't just gather a group of random people from the street, usher them onto an idle aircraft they happen to find sitting in a state of wasteful mismanagement and take them for an Airplane Ride. No... the pilots have to be scheduled onto Trip Parings which are constructed by the Company according to how many Flight Hours -- How may Available Seat Miles, are generated. It’s a matter of asset Management. It's not Pilot's wanting something for nothing.

 

[hammerhead]

given USair's current shape, do any of it's employess have a right to have more days off?

 

[Traveler]

By the way, mwereplanes, I was wholly agreeing with everything you said.

Good Post.

 

[Traveler]

given USair's current shape, do any of it's employess have a right to have more days off?

Nope.

Just don't want to sit around and not get paid for not working.

Does anyone go to work 7 days a week to get paid for 3?

If they do and the boss insists they come to work anyway then the boss needs to either get a reality check or get to work on his business model so as to keep his employees productive.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I've talked to rampers, mechanics, etc that are now commuting. They try to work double shifts so they can work 3-4 days and go home. Are they not getting more days off? Of course, they are also working the appropriate hours too. This is all flight crews want - when we're at work let us work instead of sit so we can complete our appropriate hours in less time.

Jim

 

[Doc]

Will it really matter when your company is going to be carved up
like a Thanksgiving turkey and devoured by other airlines.I bet USAir doesnt
last another year if that.

Why would you say that is your life so boring that you would say something so negative?
Are you one of those people …misery lives company

 

[2BorNot2B]

Traveler & KTflyHome:

Congratulations on two very well written posts today addressing the public's mis-conception of pilots compensation. In the past I found myself trying to explain it to non-aviation professionals but I sensed that I was not believed. Indeed the "under-worked and overpaid" perception of pilots has been firmly imbedded in their minds. I have argued in the past that ALPA has never spent a dime of dues income to reverse the public image .. and I believe the time is now! Both of your posts today are correct and easily understood. I would like to think that through individual or joint effort you could convince ALPA to fund informational ads in newspapers and Professional publications, using the text of your posts.

Good Luck to you both!

.... and to all of Us

 

[AOG-N-IT]

I've talked to rampers, mechanics, etc that are now commuting. They try to work double shifts so they can work 3-4 days and go home. Are they not getting more days off? Of course, they are also working the appropriate hours too. This is all flight crews want - when we're at work let us work instead of sit so we can complete our appropriate hours in less time.

Jim

BoeingBoy,

You will find no shortage of people working double shifts in PIT or PHL Maint. to make thier 40 and gain an extra day off. The commute thing for the Non-Pilot groups is a bear as I can attest to from first hand knowledge.

During my time in PIT....all of us that were displaced from CLT , INT , ROA , CLE , SYR , BUF and a dozen other places were doing it. The Non-Rev Shuffle was becoming a nightmare too.

I know many whom drove between CLT and PIT so often that their vehicles became mathmatically worthless in terms of trade value in very short order. We also had a large number that would drive between PIT and upstate NY on a weekly basis. The drive alone and even the bumps and grinds of Non-Reving often ate up most of the benefits of working double shifts to obtain added time off.

Myself...I was lucky for the most part , I did have to run the gambit of CLT to RDU/GSO then on to PIT....and often I did the PIT to PHL then CLT on the return home.

I made myself a promise when I accepted the PIT transfer , the promise was this. The vehicle I took there , was making one trip up...and one trip back regardless of the length of time I was to spend there? I was one of two fortunate souls I know of that was actually able to return home to CLT within 7 months....many more continue to soldier on, that arrived long before I got to PIT...and still endure to this day , with no end in sight.

Those whom endure this situation have my respect beyond belief , this not only disrupts the family life...it creates an incredible burden by attempting to finance a duallity of life and keeping the home fores burning sorta speak. I'm sure many relationships have become victims to this as well.

 

[High Iron]

BB said:

Dave has no control over employee productivity other than demand more concessions to make up for the systemic inefficiencies

Aaaannnndddd.....

Where Dave does have control is in deciding if we remain a downsized old-style hub/spoke airline or not

Bingo.

The dirty little secret that seems to get brushed aside and ignored. I just thought I needed to highlight it again before it gets buried, and that much easier to ignore...by those who choose to.