Pilots fight `by the book'

[Phoenix]

...workers had essentially two choices, ONE, hunker down and eat the dog food and keep the doors open. TWO, leave the industry.

Economy had no bearing on it. Economy might have changed but the boss has the same MO. They are short term, flash cash.

Emplyees and customers understand the long term strategy, but you were right years ago. It is about fleece, just below riot level.

Next boss will promise long term strategy and even growth to China as long as the employees put in sacrifice to grow... yeah whatever.

Are 51% of my co-workers still stupid after all this?

 

[ussnark]

Ya know, if it is the last leg of the trip and he is a commuter on a tight connection there are ways to get even...

Unfortunately the passengers suffer in this type of civil war, but by the same token you didn't start it, he didn't care about the passengers when he refused to help expedite problem-solving at the gate and if you fail to defend your position you will be stepped over by these types of guys with regularity.

The bottom line is that if the FA's don't take themselves seriously they can't expect others to do so.

F/As are not charged with solving other employee groups problems, dup. seats, no aircraft servicing, etc.

The fact that they are min. staffed and agents operate with obsolete equipment (it may look new, but, in fact, is simply a rehash of old technology), min. staffing at servicing, etc. This corporation _only_ changes when pax go elsewhere. It is written in their mission statement, so changes will require pax inconvenience. Get over it.

Tell the "inconvenienced pax" that the problem will be resolved when the agent comes down.

The pilot is exactly correct.

Do not violate the company's own rules. Fly safe and by the book.

Believe me, the inconvenience will only last a few days. It is almost like riding a motorcycle in cold wx. You can go fast and brave the extreme cold, minimizing the time for discomfort or go slow and "enjoy" not quite so cold for a much (sometimes, forever) longer time.

Try choosing something different than you have been doing for so many years. Try "fast".

 

[hp_fa]

F/As are not charged with solving other employee groups problems, dup. seats, no aircraft servicing, etc.

During the boarding of a flight who is normally the first company employee to know there is a seat dupe? Bag problem? Catering problem? Yup, the FA. Among the crew on the plane which employees are specifically prohibited from getting off the plane once passengers are aboard? Yup, the FA.

The pilots need to fight management without putting the FA's right in the middle of their squabble.

 

[a320av8r]

During the boarding of a flight who is normally the first company employee to know there is a seat dupe? Bag problem? Catering problem? Yup, the FA. Among the crew on the plane which employees are specifically prohibited from getting off the plane once passengers are aboard? Yup, the FA.
The pilots need to fight management without putting the FA's right in the middle of their squabble.

Agreed- this is a stupid rule.
How should it be handled according to your FAM?
Who made it up?
Who can rectify it?

When there are enough delays due to this problem it'll get our multi-million dollar managers attention-

Get it yet?

It isn't about one work group vs. another- it is about our management managing this company. They want to reap the benefits, they must earn it!
If management says I'm just a 22 year "C scale" f/o, then thats what they get. Sorry if you're inconvenienced.

 

[hp_fa]

Agreed- this is a stupid rule.
How should it be handled according to your FAM?
Who made it up?
Who can rectify it?

"During the passenger boarding and deplaning phase on each flight, all of the flight attendants required by section 121.391(a) must be on board the airplane."

Look at Paragraph A

 

[ussnark]

During the boarding of a flight who is normally the first company employee to know there is a seat dupe? Bag problem? Catering problem? Yup, the FA. Among the crew on the plane which employees are specifically prohibited from getting off the plane once passengers are aboard? Yup, the FA.

The pilots need to fight management without putting the FA's right in the middle of their squabble.

Not the pilots yob > to pick up after management. Attempting to bring the pilots into a problem area that originally starts with bad management and swirls to include the FAs and the agents is just attempting to obscure the problem. I think the pilots would be acting in an absurb manner were they to try to "fix" the problem by leaving the cockpit. After all, if management feels pilots can "fix" this problem, what other management deficiency will they then lay on an employee group?

Quit enabling bad management, darn it! If management cannot do their marginally competant jobs, then replace them. Stop attempting to fix morons. Eventually they will have you out on the street attempting to sell credit cards to motorists........much less hawking seats. Jeez!

You are advocating running "welfare for management" (No wonder so many want to be in mgt, it seems to be where the easy life is...)

 

[BoeingBoy]

hp_fa,

I don't think a320av8r is disputing that the F/A's must remain on board during boarding. I believe he's asking what your manual says you're supposed to do to resolve dupe seats.

In other words, what is the policy for resolving dupe seats? I know "the norm" is to get one of the pilots to call, but what does company policy say?

99.9% of the pilots want to cooperate as a crew to make the job as easy as possible for the entire crew, so these actions aren't aimed at the F/A's. They're aimed at management, because the quickest way to get management's attention is for everyone to do their job exactly as specified by management. Not do less than specified, by any means, but not more than management specifies either.

Jim

 

[hp_fa]

Quit enabling bad management, darn it!

I'm not. I have already said to go ahead and two engine taxi at 10 mph, fly low and do other stuff you feel you need to do. I understand your frustration, but don't get the FA's directly involved in your action by refusing to make a radio call to ask for an agent to come down if one isn't in the jetway.

The shotgun or grenade approach to problem resolution needs to be replaced with a weapon that targets a smaller area.

 

[a320av8r]

I'm not. I have already said to go ahead and two engine taxi at 10 mph, fly low and do other stuff you feel you need to do. I understand your frustration, but don't get the FA's directly involved in your action by refusing to make a radio call to ask for an agent to come down if one isn't in the jetway.
The shotgun or grenade approach to problem resolution needs to be replaced with a weapon that targets a smaller area.

That radio call is NOT my job. It is the agents job to be in the jetway. This is not a slam against the agent- it is a clarification of my job duties. It is not the flight attendants job fix dupe seats or leave the aircraft.
Stop taking it personally...

 

[ussnark]

The shotgun or grenade approach to problem resolution needs to be replaced with a weapon that targets a smaller area.

I believe the flight manual defines when the pilots need to be in their seats doing their job and I understand that helping out FAs (unless it is life-threatening) is not a reason to violate the manual.

I hear pilots have been taking "shortcuts" for years, helping out the company. When the company spokesperson publically states that there is no reason to change things because "all flights are going out on time", then, perhaps the employees need to reassess their relationship with the company and simply do as the "manual" says, no matter.

It is like enabling a drug addict. Your aid to help them "over the hump" becomes, after a period of time, expected behavior.

Time to re-negotiate.

 

[hp_fa]

Is it too much to just pick up the radio and ask that an agent come down to the plane? That is all that would be needed. I am not suggesting that anyone get out of their seat or do anything other then ask for an agent to come to the gate.

 

[hublablebla]

Perspective of a west FA:

I have taken more collective abuse by passengers in the last two weeks than I have in the previous two years. All due to fly by the book pilots and stupid scheduling. I have no problem with fly by the book pilots. It seems that we have reached our last resort and are sending a message to the maagement of US. If the company wants things to start working again, they need to do things that will create goodwill with the people on the front line. Whether or not they will and how long it will take is another question all together. We will soon get their attention. OTP statistics and DOT complaints do not lie. We will be at the rock bottom in Feb.

In the meantime I will simply do my best to answer questions and be helpful while I get yelled at by our customers and hope that the next time my pay changes, it won't be a paycut.

 

[a320av8r]

Is it too much to just pick up the radio and ask that an agent come down to the plane? That is all that would be needed. I am not suggesting that anyone get out of their seat or do anything other then ask for an agent to come to the gate.

Yes. Is it too much to ask multi-million dollar bonus management to fix this problem so that this doesn't happen to begin with?

 

[Phoenix]

Is it too much to just pick up the radio and ask that an agent come down to the plane? That is all that would be needed. I am not suggesting that anyone get out of their seat or do anything other then ask for an agent to come to the gate.

It seems the pilot's time is consumed doing their own duties and also could be charged with a late takeoff if they are caught away from the cockpit while they should be doing their preflight duties.

Perhaps the dupe passengers can both go back to the gate agent and request a resolution. Southwest expects passengers to seat themselves. Maybe USAir should require passengers to take a more active role in their own seeting arangements. Is that the natural conclusion based on the way current company job descriptions are written? :huh:

 

[ussnark]

Is it too much to just pick up the radio and ask that an agent come down to the plane? That is all that would be needed. I am not suggesting that anyone get out of their seat or do anything other then ask for an agent to come to the gate.

Why would the cockpit personnel get involved in a problem that is detected by the FA and is really due to a bad boarding model? (No FA should ever take any "yelling" by any passenger. Perhaps hand them a complaint form and inform them the next outburst will bring the police.)

Is it too difficult for mgt to come up with a system that actually works? If it is, terminate them and use someone competent. Why any employee should over-compensate for incompetent or lazy management is just beyond me, realizing that this is not just a one-off problem but is endemic to most any mgt committed to half-arsed product.

Management can solve the problem with better resources but they apparently choose not to. As long as they can "pad" their budgets with cost-savings courtesy the employee unilaterally "extending their job description", why would mgt change? What incentive would you provide to motivate mgt to change?

Publically, mgt has said that "late" flights are a concern. OK, sounds like an offer to show how concerned the employees are ........