Glad to have located our flyboys, or is it "the life of the rich and famous"

[UAL777flyer]

mastermechanic,

While bankruptcy does solve many of the company's problems in terms of writing off debt, lowering labor and other costs, changing inefficient work rules, getting rid of certain aircraft, etc. It also creates big problems as well that many people often overlook.

In a bankruptcy scenario, the creditor's committee would hire consultants and efficiency experts who will be all over the company from top to bottom analyzing every aspect of our business. The company has to get permission from this committee for nearly every major decision. So the big problem becomes losing control over the direction of the company. If the CEO wants to do "X" in the interests of the company, but the creditor's committee doesn't like it, chances are it won't happen. This slows down the decision-making process considerably and causes chaos and confusion throughout the company. Basically, the bankruptcy court and creditor's committee have control of the company. That isn't a good thing.

Then there is also the PR troubles that it causes. We would experience significant book-away from our customers, many of whom don't have the first clue about what bankruptcy means. All they hear is "bankruptcy" and all of a sudden the Christmas visit to grandma's house is in jeopardy so they better book on AA or DL or whoever. You'd be amazed how many people do that. Your competitors take full advantage of your bankruptcy position in their advertising and marketing, especially in terms of stealing away your core frequent fliers and prime corporate accounts.

Another aspect is that a bankruptcy filing will further demoralize and disenfranchise the employees of this company even more than they already are. As angry as everyone is these days, there is still some measure of hope that the ESOP stock will be worth something for those folks that have it (albeit slim hope that fades each day). But if bankruptcy comes, all equity is wiped out. That will create a lot more anger with the work force and less motivation. Anyone should be smart enough to figure that out. So in terms of trying to get your employees working together and motivated, a bankruptcy filing is counter-productive to that effort.

So while yes, it's true, that bankruptcy will solve many of UA's financial problems, it will create a whole host of other obstacles that are no less daunting.

 

[kcabpilot]

UAL777flyer:

Thanks for the explanations. It sounds as though United has nothing to lose by filing bk.

"In a bankruptcy scenario, the creditor's committee would hire consultants and efficiency experts who will be all over the company from top to bottom"

Are you saying this would be a "bad" thing?

"This slows down the decision-making process"

And since all of the decisions over the past two plus years have been bad ones wouldn't this be a "good" thing?

"causes chaos and confusion throughout the company."

Hey, we can do "chaos and confusion" just look at us now.

"Then there is also the PR troubles that it causes"

As if constantly threatening to file bankruptcy over a two year period hasn't already done that?

"Another aspect is that a bankruptcy filing will further demoralize and disenfranchise the employees of this company"

I seriously doubt that is possible.

What this company is going to do is follow US Air. That is all this management has ever done. They haven't got their own plan so they follow someone elses.

 

[gatemech]

whatkindoffreshhell,

What I meant about the 100% medical is that I would have given 10% last year or years before to have that kind of coverage. I know that is not possible in the airline industry. And no I don't want to give up any time off. It means too much to me. With the 6 & 2 schedule any day off is cherished.

UAL777flyer,

No inside source. I guess I'm a little behind on my reading.

 

[UAL777flyer]

I realized a long time ago that I'm just along for the ride. That is why I keep saying why prolong the inevitable. Cuts are coming whether any of us like it or not. It'll either be the easy way or the hard way, so we might as well do it while we still have some control over our fate.

The way you vote your conscience matters little to me. In the end, you do what you feel you have to do, like the rest of us. My point was that I've been through this twice before. I know what can/will happen and I don't want to go through it again. So, therefore, my attitude is to do everything we can to avoid that scenario. We still have some control over it. Yet there are still too many employees of this company who are deeply in denial about the true financial state of this company. These are people who couldn't see the light if you shined a 1,000 watt bulb in their face. And that's the saddest part of all.

 

[eightpilot]

Mastermechanic has a point guy's

The Mechanics were forced into the ESOP years ago with a promise of a future. 7 years later it was time to reap the benefits of the 7 year pay freeze. But the company was too busy getting the pilots their big raise that they blew off the IAM for about 2 years. That brings us up to about 9 years with no pay increase. Well they finally got their raise and just a few months later the company wants it back. I understand that these are bad times but, The pilots enjoyed their fat paycheck for 2 years. The Mechanics only enjoyed their fat checks for a couple of months. That's wrong. If they need to give back, then let them do it 1.5 years from now so they to can reap some benefits from the ESOP....

 

[UAL777flyer]

eightpilot,

Not so fast. The IAM had no interest in negotiating a new contract until the AMFA deal was done at NW. The IAM was not about to conclude their contract first and set the new bar, only to have AMFA one-up them with their deal. That would have gone a long way towards booting the IAM off the property, which is something they will pull out ALL the stops to avoid. So it works both ways. I'm not doubting that the company was focusing on getting the pilots deal done first. Like it or not, it makes sense. Nobody can grind the airline to a halt quicker than the pilots. However, the IAM was too wrapped up in their politics to negotiate seriously until the NW/AMFA deal was done. The mechanics will once again have a chance to boot out the IAM for good when the next representation election is held in the coming weeks.

 

[Tim Thorpe]

They don't want a paycut from maint. They want to get rid of maint. The Scope/Job Security provisions are unacceptable. They want to get rid of farmout limits.They want to get to get rid of the job security provisions I already paid for once(remember ESOP). They want to delete the language that prevents them from getting rid of the SFO, OAK and IND maint centers. They want to get rid of the language that prevents them from sending heavy maintenance to a NON US location. This is about way more than 10.4% and some vacation time. I cannot vote for this type of deal. I would rather go down swinging. I will take my chances with the BK judge if this package is my only choice.

 

[Cosmo]

As an outsider, I find this to be truly amazing. The same folks (and their unions) who never want to accept binding arbitration during "normal" contract negotiations because they believe that the neutral arbitor will "always" side with management, now want to place their faith in a judge that oversees a forum that is geared to the needs of businesses and thus is likely to be much more favorable to United's creditors and, to a lesser extent, the company itself. For the unions and their members to believe that a bankruptcy judge will offer them a better deal than whatever United ultimately proposes (after some negotiations) is IMHO naivete in the extreme.

Thus, I believe the issue for you isn't whether United's final offer to the IAM is fair, it's not whether you have already "paid" for some of the proposed provisions, it's not even whether United wants to continue doing its own maintenance. The only issue that should matter to you is whether you will get a better (or even the same) deal from the bankruptcy judge than you're being offered by United. I think current circumstances, at both United and in the economy in general, make the likelihood of that very, very small. So you should think long and hard before turning down United's offer, no matter how unpalatable it may be to you. Because if you do turn it down, there is a very good chance that things will only get worse. JMHO.

 

[gatemech]

UAL777flyer,

I feel the NMB is what held up our negotiation more than anything else. Which brings us to the fact that the IAM probably has them in their pocket.

 

[mastermechanic]

Well...even MR 777flyer has to admit what this shell game is all about. And our flyboys ain't to happy neither. There is NO room at all with these demands. This is not a proposal...this is a statement. We are going to court boys...for all the marbles. An industry fight with government collusion, and we'll probably lose. But with what was "proposed", I have but no choice to fight now. For those who loved this airline, I am sorry. Won't be much left after this war.

 

[johnny gearpin]

UAl777flyer says,

The mechanics will once again have a chance to boot out the IAM for good when the next representation election is held in the coming weeks.

I would hope that your information is correct.

Download an AMFA Authorization Card today.

 

[Busdrvr]

MM, Gatemech, Jonny, Tim,
All hope is not yet lost. GET INVOLVED!!! This is an election year. My sen can ill afford an out of work Busdrvr standing in front of the local polling place whinning because he didn't help. They KNOW THIS. CALL YOUR Sen and Reps. Tell them how you feel. Tell them you are willing to give a reasonable "fair" share, but you are unwilling to destabilize the entire industry. Tell them the ATSB has CLEARLY overstepped thier mandate. They have assistants paid to listen and report back from the natives. We are now to the lobbying phase. Please, get on the phone and act!!!

 

[Taipan]

Busdrvr I agree, how are you doing these days? On my days off I will send an email to MR Daschle,Mr Gephardt and MR Durbin imho my home state of Texas would be a waste of good bandwith to email any of them[]

 

[KCFlyer]

On my days off I will send an email to MR Daschle,Mr Gephardt and MR Durbin imho my home state of Texas would be a waste of good bandwith to email any of them

I know this may sound like blasphemy in this high tech age, but you're point might get noticed better if you use your computer to compose a letter, print it off, and pop for the 37 cents to mail it to the Senators. E-mail is great for politicians because they can have an automated reply. And you have to remember, there are a lot of far right whackos and far left loonies who fire off e-mail after e-mail, combined with the "great sex", "natural viagra", great mortgage rates" and "work from home" emails which insures that a politicians e-mail box is nothing but a spam collector. Mail a real letter if you want half a chance of your Senator getting your view on things.

 

[HI-LOCK]

----------------
On 8/21/2002 1:17:48 PM

Mastermechanic,

UAL777flyer put it very well. You are going to take a pay cut one way or another. Take it voluntarily and you will probably not take quite the hit, but if you let the judge decide, you will take a greater cut. And if you don't like either one of these options, there is one more option, leave and do us all a favor and remove your attitude from the UAL property.
----------------

Wage and Benefit concessions has never saved an airline which is in trouble.The list is long:Braniff,Eastern,TWA,PanAm,ect,ect.I hope the United Mechanics do not take a wage concession because this will wreck the wages of mechanics at all other airlines.[AA included]It is foolish to give management anything because once you do they will take even more.Remember Chrysler and the government bail-out in the 1980's.The management got concessions from the UAW and then the first year after the management payed themselfs large bonuses and and not come back to the union to give back the concessions.I guess we shouldn't fight any wars because we will lose troops and expensive equipment.It is a very weak argument to use the fear tactic that a judge will set the wages.Some wars are worth the cost! Union Brothers and Sisters rule!