Glad to have located our flyboys, or is it "the life of the rich and famous"

[UAL24]

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On 8/23/2002 5:53:23 PM

quot;
Sacrifice is admirable, but suicide is stupidity.

Master,

I see you are still a pain in the ***. You are full of an incredible array of inconsistencies. Probably just love getting a raise out of people and we are apparently as ignorant as you to respond.

1. Suicide is stupidity. What do you call your stance?

2. They are paying for my 16 years of experience. Call me in a few years and we can talk. The majority of our pilots have more than this in terms of experience. Many have more than that just to get an interview. (When we were).

3. We have all given so much to save this company and it just makes me mad. Agreed, but you continue to run your suck suggesting take the company down. Showing your intelligence again.

4. You are constantly bashing the pilots when you obviously know very little about our job except that we make more money than you. I don't believe anybody has been holding you back from changing careers except your own bitterness and lack of mental apptitude. Get off your lazy *** and get a different job if you are so p***ed off that I make more than you. Stop *****ing about it, it is tiresome. My job takes a hell of a lot more time to get qualified to do and my level of responsibility is higher than yours so get over it. Your job takes a lot more time to learn and has a higher level of responsibility than a CSR, you make more. Is you following what I am saying.The mere fact that I have to have a finger shoved in a very private spot every 6months just to keep my job has got to be worth something!!! You talk metaphorically about taking it in the rear, Us pilots do it literally.

5. Your only legit post, difference between SWA pilots and us. Nothing. We fly about 80hrs a month they fly about 80 hours a month. The difference is they fly about 4.5 flights per day we fly about 2.5. Makes a little sense because we fly much longer legs as an airline on the whole. Stop blaming the pilots we don't make the schedules or the business model we just fly them. What do you do, assuming you are a line mechanic, in between the banks? Sit around and ***** about pilots?

6. Finally, that crap about a pilot rubbing his paycheck into a fuloughed mechanics face. Never happened. If it did I would be the first to find said pilot and make him medically incapable of flight. What probably happened is said pilot made that statement not knowing the person he was talking to was furloughed. I know you think we should all read your mind but that was not part of Contract 2000.

I go away flying for a few days and see this thread is quite large. I am personally done with this thread because it is definitely not constructive, I am as guilty as some, and it serves none of us well. We must save this company from BK. Stay out of courts and we live to fight another day. This is different than when we were doing the ESOP. That was a threat to the existence of the company BK is only a threat to the employees of the company. UAL will still exist. What they pay their people will no longer exist in any form similar to current contracts.

 

[mancityfan]

MM,

I see the game with mgmt, but the pilots are NOT playing any games with you! The company agreed to give us BOTH ILCs, and we both got them. Unfortunately for you, we got ours first, and yours took so long to get, the economic realities changed.

If you are looking for any scapegoats in all this, you are looking in the wrong place with ALPA. You can scream obscenities until you are blue in the face, but it will not change the realities of timing that have worked against you... and ALPA had NOTHING to do with it.

I would GENTLY suggest that ALPA has been a leader at this company on many fronts, on the upside and the downside. In this instance, we are first to embrace the downside, something IAM and AFA apparently refuse to see. I can only hope you "see the light" before the BK judge finds it for you, as I think ALPA will ALREADY have paid to play that game and will come out smelling like a rose. If you think we are ONLY negotiating to get the loans, then I think you may be not thinking ahead to the next step. ALPA has played ball with the company from the beginning on this ERP, and, being the largest contributors and willing to help from the start is VERY MEANINGFUL to the judge, especially if we have ALREADY negotiated a package of cuts with the company. Just wondering how you and your mates will feel if ALPA gives 20% upfront in an agreement with the company, and the Judge comes in and slaps you guys with as much if not more in the CH 11 proceedings? AFA, too!

I hope it does not come to that, but if it does, be prepared to go out and find that "excellent working conditions, excellent benefits, excellent salary" job all the mechanics have waiting for them OUTSIDE the airline in the "REAL" world. And don't look back telling everyone, "it was the f-ing pilots that did this to me!" For every jerk pilot comment you hear, I hear at least 3 from mechanics. However, I choose to respond when I hear it or not at all. I certainly do not come to a web discussion board to complain about it. What exactly is it youare looking for from this forum? An answer? Someone to say, "Yeah, you are right , pilots are a-holes!"??? I will admit, we have our SHARE. However, seeing as how we have only 8400 pilots, it appears the "share" enjoyed by the OTHER employees groups is at least as large if not larger! Are we going to focus on THOSE individuals, or are we going to get off our collective butts and move forward?

I have tried to coddle, cajole and assuage. Now it is time for a few home truths. Look around, there are enough idiots and a-holes at UAl to run a completely DIFFERENT airline into the ground. If you want to be part of the problem, join them. If you actually like making close to six figures in a manual labor job, with good benefits and free flights to almost anywhere in the world, then become PART OF THE SOLUTION! Whining to a bunch of anonymous pseudonyms on a web bulleting board is neither constructive nor enlightening. Be a Marine!

mancityfan

 

[spillNspoil]

Alright Gang,

Before this thread gets totally out of hand, let everyone be reminded of the rules governing what type of language can be used on this forum. We realize these are emotional times. However, that doesn't excuse breaking the rules you agreed to when you registered. Please bear that in mind.

 

[gatemech]

Haven't been reading the boards for a while. This is getting better than TV.

I have to agree with most of mastermachanics post. Although I will listen and consider certain concessions only when new management is in place. If a judge has to decide so be it.

 

[UAL777flyer]

gatemech,

Even if the judge imposes deeper cuts to your contract than the company will ask for in the new proposals that come out this week? I completely understand your unwillingness to give anything back to the "present management". But you could very well be cutting off your nose to spite your face. I would hate to see any employees cut deeper in a bankruptcy scenario. But you can take it to the bank that the company will petition a bankruptcy judge to throw out your labor contracts if we file Chapter 11.

 

[UAL24]

Ok I really am done after this. I believe I hold the record for most edits in one post by a moderator.[:halo:]

Gatemech,

You agree with master. That really lends credibility to his pathetic arguements. The sad part here is that I have undermined my own credibility by sinking into his world. Live and learn. Done.

 

[gatemech]

I haven't heard the out come of USAir's bid to get a judge to void the collective bargaining agreements. If U gets their way then I feel UA will file no matter what just to void our contracts. From What I hear UA wants vacation, medical, holidays etc. Some analyst say UA will make it without the loan guarantees or BK. Some say it's the only way. I feel that UA is going to try to model the concessions after what U is trying to get. That is a little harsh. We are not as bad off as U. Even if we had agreed to the first proposal that they sent to the IAM they would have come back for more. I only hear Creighton saying that deeper longer cuts are necessary. I haven't seen anything from the ATSB. Maybe I don't read enough. I also read that we are losing on the average of 1 million a day. How did we get from 15 then 10 then 5 and now 1 million and holding? I know that some days are better than others. It's an average. If you can get down 14 million then 1 more shouldn’t be that difficult. We never hear the positive end of it. I also have to agree with the F/A's. Where is the recovery plan? What is going to be done to generate more revenue? What is the business plan? If concessions are the only card they are playing then we will fail. So far all the press has cost more than the concessions in lost bookings. What they have done is no different that the letter Goodwin sent out. In reality it's worse.

 

[Busdrvr]

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On 8/28/2002 6:44:52 PM

"I haven't heard the out come of USAir's bid to get a judge to void the collective bargaining agreements. If U gets their way then I feel UA will file no matter what just to void our contracts."

It's not all about beating the unions, it's about making this company viable long term.

"Some analyst say UA will make it without the loan guarantees or BK. Some say it's the only way."

Have you heard ANY analyst say we would be ok without them lately?

"I only hear Creighton saying that deeper longer cuts are necessary. I haven't seen anything from the ATSB. Maybe I don't read enough."

You didn't miss anything. The ATSB has been bargaining the Stevie Wolfe way. They never gave specifics, just more, more, you're getting warmer, you're getting colder...

"I also read that we are losing on the average of 1 million a day. How did we get from 15 then 10 then 5 and now 1 million and holding? I know that some days are better than others. It's an average. If you can get down 14 million then 1 more shouldn’t be that difficult."

Actually it can be VERY diff. The current situation is that NWA is blocking any fare increases. They have pricing power in DTW and MSP. So they make their money there, and use the surplus to keep down prices in our markets out west. They have cheaper pilots and mechanics, not to mention much older cheaper jets. They are using that cost advantage to keep yeilds low and keep the pressure on us. AMR was pulling the same "stuff" in ORD, although I think they have backed of lately when we showed we would not merely give away the market, plus I think they really don't want a UAL that enjoys a 20% cost advantage over them. Throw in the current labor probs there... But in any case, the only way yields will go up, and we quit losing money, is to prove to the market that we can do it just as cheaply (or cheaper), and that keeping fares depressed hurts them more than us.

"We never hear the positive end of it. I also have to agree with the F/A's."

Now you're scaring me [:bigsmile:]

"Where is the recovery plan? What is going to be done to generate more revenue? What is the business plan?"

It's a chicken and egg thing. Who in his right mind would come waltzing in knowing the union won't help any? The IAM quite frankly, doesn't have a lot of credibility on that issue. I seem to remember they were saying "give us our ILC and we'll then take our cuts from there" Well you got it and now there seems to be little if any willingness to go along with ANY plan to help stabilize OUR company. there are some revenue things going on. Some of it has to do with yield management (squeezing out that last mill or two a day). But why would the CEO allow BIG changes to the corporate structure when a new CEO is in the making who will come in and change things again?

"If concessions are the only card they are playing then we will fail. So far all the press has cost more than the concessions in lost bookings. What they have done is no different that the letter Goodwin sent out. In reality it's worse."

While your statement is largely true in the long term, the short term story is diff. In the long term, we reduce our saleries, AMR uses us to beat their employees over the head, and we're back were we started, but with lower pay. In the short term however, UAL needs about a 10% reduction in wage costs to have a positive cash flow into next year. It is also important to note that it is not a "zero sum game" meaning if wages are lower, it may now be profitable to add back some service that wasn't profitable at the slightly higher rates, bringing GROWTH!!! which incidently further reduces costs per mile since "Johnny first year employee" makes much less than you or me. Do you trust the management to do the right thing? I don't, but quite frankly, I don't think we have the option of not trusting them.

 

[UAL777flyer]

gatemech,

You don't hear the positive side because lately there isn't much to be positive about. If you doubt that we're still bleeding cash, than you need to better educate yourself on the economic side of our business. I don't mean that as a slam against you, but more to emphasize the fact that things are BAD, VERY BAD. I see the numbers each and every day. They do not lie. The summer should be our most cash-generating period of the year. June was a train wreck. I won't comment about July or August because those numbers aren't public knowledge. But use your imagination. So you cannot simply say that we went from 15 million a day to 10 million to 5 to 1, so things must be getting better each day. It doesn't quite work that way, I'm afraid. If only it were that easy.

 

[gatemech]

busdrvr & UAL777flyer,

I have no doubt that things are bad. The IAM is trying to keep AMFA off the property. If 10% is what it's going to take then so be it. I see UA coming after all they can. The ATSB was compiled from the Bush administration, which we all know is anti labor. At a 10% cut I'm still better than I was in Feb. Not much of a problem. I haven't changed my life style. Going after medical would probably get some of us killed since the medical stinks now. So I guess that would help in reduction of work force. Just kidding. We already get fewer holidays than any other industry I've ever worked in. I know they want to get R & D. Take it. Just protect the mechanics affected buy it. I hear all kinds of numbers for lay offs. Even more for retirements lately. Will that offset the lay offs?

If I scare you sorry. I feel that AFA has put out some good press lately. IAM just sits there beating their chest. Darn knuckle walkers.

 

[Rhino]

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The government fails us (9/11), and they get 33% of our equity for doing it.
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The government did not formulate UAL's business model.

The government did not initiate UAL pilots' summer of love.

The government did not orchestrate ESOP, which resulted in irresponsible union appointees on the BOD.

The government did not appoint Dubinsky MEC prez.

Sep 11 surely exacerbated/accelerated U/UAL's plight. The airlines already have received the handout, but ATSB loan money is for airlines with viable business plans. UAL union concessions are woefully inadequate from that perspective.

I don't want my taxes going to a company whose employees are unwilling to make the sacrifices it will take to turn things around.

Surely negotiated cuts would be better for all UAL employees than to have a BK judge decide in order to qualify for the ATSB loan. I don't recommend the path U is now on.

 

[Busdrvr]

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On 8/28/2002 10:40:58 PM

busdrvr & UAL777flyer,

I have no doubt that things are bad. The IAM is trying to keep AMFA off the property. If 10% is what it's going to take then so be it. I see UA coming after all they can. The ATSB was compiled from the Bush administration, which we all know is anti labor. At a 10% cut I'm still better than I was in Feb. Not much of a problem.
----------------

Here's a nasty rumour you'll like. I've heard (fifth hand of course) that the current request is on the order of 20% pilot, 10% skilled IAM, 5% CSR, F/A. While I understand your opinion of the Bush admin, also note that Avek's old buddy John Corzine (D-NJ) put what could turn out to be a very onerous little amendmant into the law, the gov will expect an EQUITY stake in UAL, and if U and AWA is any indication, that could be as high as 33%. The government fails us (9/11), and they get 33% of our equity for doing it.

 

[mastermechanic]

What does anybody know about United Loyalty Services?

 

[mastermechanic]

I LOVE THIS BOARD!!! The pilots love me, management loves me...I mean there is soooo much love here...and experts too. Roll with the punches I always say[] But seriously folks, I haven't been able to defend myself much because I had the nasty little thing called work to do. I know, it always gets in the way. Love my brothers at the U though. Yep, do or die for us wrenches, only the worm knows what's going to happen to us and he isn't talking yet. Rampers bought the deal, good for them if thats how they felt. Say what you want about me, feel as you want about me, but don't doubt your eyes my beloved pilots...cause that attitude indicator is just about to flip upside down[:0]

 

[mastermechanic]

Troubled United Airlines had closed-door meetings with employees Monday to outline requests for wage concessions, while saying it will file a new application for $1.8 billion in loan guarantees.

United, which has lost about $3 billion since the beginning of 2001, first applied for loan guarantees in June, but the application apparently flew into turbulence. The guarantees are part of a federal program to aid airlines struggling financially in the post-Sept. 11 environment.

On Aug. 14, Jack Creighton, the interim chief executive officer of United's parent company, UAL Corp., said the Air Transportation Stabilization Board indicated United will have to do more to contain costs before it can grant the $1.8 billion guarantee for $2 billion in funding United wants. Labor accounts for 40 percent of United's costs, according to the airline, which is also talking to vendors and lessees about liberalized terms.

Without the loan guarantee, UAL management has said, the nation's second- largest carrier may have to follow US Airways into bankruptcy. United said it needs to have union concessions in place by Sept. 14 to forestall going into Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

The alternative, Chapter 11, could be costly to airline employees. On Monday, US Airways asked a bankruptcy judge to void that airline's contracts with its unions.

With about half of all passengers and flights, United is the dominant carrier at San Francisco International Airport and a major employer. About 16, 000 of United's 87,000 employees reside in the Bay Area.

Although airline industry analysts say United's labor costs are among the highest in the industry, they are split over whether United's financial situation is actually dire enough to drive it into Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

Sam Buttrick, a Wall Street analyst with the investment bank UBS Warburg, said last week that United will almost certainly have to declare bankruptcy. UBS Warburg owned shares in UAL as of June 2002; information about Buttrick's personal holdings was unavailable.

But Michael Boyd, an aviation consultant and principal of the Boyd Group, said Monday that United could well be strong enough to avoid bankruptcy, and criticized Creighton for implying otherwise.

"I think he did it as a ploy to scare the unions," Boyd said. "The downside for United is it scares the vendors. It scares the public.

"I think it would be nice if United gets the guarantees," said Boyd, a former executive for American Airlines and Braniff International whose firm has done consulting work for Delta Airlines. "It would lower the cost of borrowing. The problem United has, though, is it doesn't have a permanent CEO and isn't able to tell employees what the company is going to do differently."

United spokesman Chris Braithwaite said Monday that UAL's requests, and possibly employees' responses, could be clear by the end of this week.

United's unions, which collectively own 55 percent of UAL under an employee stock ownership plan adopted in 1994, are taking a wait-and-see stance.

Air Line Pilots Association spokesman Captain Herb Hunter, a United pilot, said that employees are awaiting further details of United's proposals.

On Aug. 20, ALPA dropped a vote on a tentative agreement with United to cut pilots' wages by 10 percent. The cuts were contingent on other unions also making concessions, Hunter said, and with the fluidity of United's financial situation, United's pilots decided to scrap the vote.

"There's no point in voting on that agreement now because it's academic," Hunter said.

"What everybody's trying to do is get a feeling of what the Air Transportation Stabilization Board is really looking for," he said.

The Association of Flight Attendants said it wants to see a detailed UAL recovery plan that goes beyond just demanding employee givebacks before agreeing to any concessions.

The International Association of Machinists, the third major union, has not seen details of United's proposals, spokesman Joe Tiberi said Monday.

E-mail David Armstrong at [email protected].

Just old hash, I think BK is what they want if they can get away with it...why develop a business plan when your employees can bear the burden, again, and again, and again....