Glad to have located our flyboys, or is it "the life of the rich and famous"

[Rhino]

No one said the IAM is responsible for the current UAL situation, but there you are.

ILP for the biggest money-losing operation in the industry is hard to justify now.

There are productivity/feather-bedding issues as well.

A UAL aquaintance was discussing concessions via negotiation or via Ch 11. He said,'We're going to the proctologist. The only question is do you want the exam with or without vaseline?'

 

[mastermechanic]

you've got to check this out...just copy and paste...it's hillarious


[url="http://www.the-mechanic.com/mainbb.html"]http://www.the-mechanic.com/mainbb.html[/url]


scroll down one or two postings and check out the b777 captain cheesecake delimma...LMAO

 

[Rhino]

M2 could not find it. Deleted?

 

[mastermechanic]

highlight the link provided in my previous post...copy...paste it in your browser address bar and you'll find the page...scroll down a from the article, should be first post...

 

[UAL777flyer]

Kcabpilot,

You touched on a larger issue, in my opinion. I would never say that the IAM is responsible for UA's financial problems. And I would not debate the fact that they were deserving of raises. However, to justify the raises simply because they hadn't received one since 1992 is irresponsible when you consider the financial situation of the company at the time. It's almost the same situation as the IAM and TWA in the summer of 1998. The IAM demanded raises because they hadn't had them in a long time. However, the company was still losing money hand over fist. The countdown to a strike began and in the end, TWA had no choice but to give the raises because a strike would have crippled the carrier completely. So you had a company giving out raises it can't afford.

Again, I'm not saying the IAM wasn't deserving of raises, along with the rest of the employees who had participated in the ESOP. What I'm saying is that to justify them simply by saying you hadn't had a raise since 1992 doesn't seem to take into account the consequences of getting that raise. Like it or not, if UA's labor costs were lower, we'd be in much better shape. As much as we all deserved raises, it doesn't do any of us good to get them when it puts our company deeply into the red.

 

[Taipan]

UAL777flyer I can tell you one thing the proposed ERP for management and non union was a non starter
Reason 1. Counting future raises as a paycut for this group but not others (Giving 12 something percent but only 7.5 out of current wages )
Reason 2. The 30,000.00 dollar rule, where if your are grossing 30,000.00 are less in management and non union you do NOT take a paycut again only proposed for this group.
I still hope for something fair and reasonable to come forward , and I expect the unions to give there version of an ERP soon, hopefully the end of this week or next, presented by all unions on the property together.

 

[kcabpilot]

UAL777flyer:

There is also NO justification in the company asking the employees for a NINE BILLION DOLLAR blank check. That goes far beyond helping out. They are being opportunistic again (they can't help themselves) and I'm afraid that by doing so they are going to blow it.

 

[UAL777flyer]

Kcabpilot,

I'm not justifying the $9 billion request. But what if that request is what we truly need in order to qualify for the ATSB loan? Maybe that amount is just how far out of whack we are with a sustainable cost structure. Who knows? My point was merely that we, as employees, must realize that our actions have consequences. For the most part, labor in the airline industry has always adapted the quasi belief that there is an unlimited ceiling on revenue that will always offset growing labor costs. It's almost a let them give us the raises we deserve and let them figure out how to pay for it mentality. Well, guess what? We've finally reached the point where that ceiling has come crashing down. Now we have to fix it. I was not attempting to question whether UA employees were deserving of raises. We were. But we must understand that their are consequences to those raises that must be dealt with now. Granted, the raises were not the only reason we're in this mess, but they were a very large contributor.

UA has itself in a serious pickle. It appears that the ATSB is dictating the level of cuts that must be achieved for UA to receive the loan guarantees. Labor is beginning to view the ATSB as a means by which the Bush Administration can shape the restructuring of this industry while crippling organized labor. Is that the case? I'm not ready to think so. Yet. But we can't expect Uncle Sam to guarantee loans for us without dictating stringent terms. This is why ever since the ATSB process was announced months and months ago I've been a staunch advocate of solving our own problems WITHOUT relying on the feds. Because you can bet they'll get the sweet end of the deal. But, instead, we wasted away the last year without solving a thing. On the contrary, our problems just got worse. Much of that was due to the continued lack of leadership that went unaddressed for too long. Hopefully, Mr. Tilton is the man to help turn the tide. But to do it, he's going to need the support of all of us working together. But time is running out. Bankruptcy becomes more of a reality with each day that passes without progress. The comforting fact is that at least we'll probably know our fate, one way or another, in the next several weeks. I'm tired of the cloud of uncertainty hanging over our head. Let's do what must be done and start turning things around. For too long, we've been an airline that can't get out of its own way. Hopefully, those days will soon be gone.

 

[mastermechanic]

Yeah...ummm..like he said...LOL

 

[kcabpilot]

I'd suggest we come up with a REAL plan and tell the ATSB to stuff it.

 

[mastermechanic]

And for God's sake, will somebody please remember...the pilots need toppings on their cheesecake like everyone else....ya know, they have needs too...

 

[mastermechanic]

My husband is a pilot for this company and voted NO. He called it - said the company would go bankrupt regardless. Gee, one-week after the pilot tally they announce the deed. As for the spouse, he's one of the 700 pilots who took the biggest hit - that being bumped from Capt. to F/O - approximately $80,000 pay cut a year ~ no big whoop. He's giving to the US Airways senior pilot survival fund (a pilot's Corvette is a terrible thing to waste.) {Sic}


Now if a pilot can take this kindof paycut and still make a living, do you kinda see my point about the inequalities in this system. Pilots, do you see why we are willing to let this house crash down? And I know it doesn't start with you alone, carrying management is breaking everyones back too. To be fair, this lady was very sincere and kind in regards to the mechanics.

 

[mancityfan]

Boy, MasterMechanic, I have to hand it to you...you sure know how to keep a dead dog breathing!

I can't believe this thread is still going and STILL managing to find new ways to say The IAM is ready to kill the company for the same reason a dog licks his gonads...because he can! And, the old stand-by, Those pilots are so overpaid with a few examples just to prove it!

It reminds me of the new Bush Administration ads for the coming election cycle:

The cost of the gas to fly from ORD to NYC: $1260

The cost of the pilots to fly it: $450

The cost of the mechanics to service and fix it: $150

The cost of watching them all throw it all away through spite: PRICELESS


I can only hope that you do not speak for the IAM as a whole on the issue of the future of the airline, because no matter what, we are all going to pay a steep price for our current predicament one way or the other. Take a leaf from your buddies at USAirways, and cut off your nose to spite your face...OR, perhaps we can all sit around the big table and figure a way out of this that keeps the airline in tact, returns something to you for your SECOND major investment in this company and turns the company around under the new leadership. But that couldn't possibly work among rational human beings, could it??

Here's hopin'

mancityfan

 

[UAL777flyer]

kcabpilot,

Unfortunately, we've wasted too much time for us to be able to fix this mess ourselves without the need for an ATSB loan guarantee, in my opinion. Unless we can somehow push off this debt payment until later on in the future, which I sincerely doubt will happen. So telling the ATSB to stuff it at this point isn't going to help us. Maybe if we all had come together last year and dedicated ourselves to putting our complaints and egos aside and worked to fix this company, we would be well on our way to turning the tide and on better financial ground. Yes, of course, I realize that the lack of leadership and lame duck CEO hurt that effort. But there was much we could have accomplished. But instead we wasted all of that time. So now we need the loan guarantees.

mancityfan,

Glad to see you back. How are things out on the line? Granted, Tilton has only been onboard a little over a week, but what is your take? Do you sense any new enthusiasm to get things done now that we have a permanent CEO and Dutta/Studdert are gone? I'd be curious to hear what you've observed. I know the sentiment of many here at WHQ is that it's going to be very tough to avoid bankruptcy. Most feel that there is simply too little time to get the necessary agreements to avoid Ch. 11. I still think there is time, provided Tilton can get the ATSB to give us an extension beyond September 16th. But I just don't have the confidence that the IAM is going to embrace concessions with another representation election on the near horizon. I hope I'm wrong. At the very least, we'll know quickly what kind of leader Tilton is.

 

[mancityfan]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 9/10/2002 10:46:28 AM UAL777flyer wrote:

mancityfan,

Glad to see you back. How are things out on the line? Granted, Tilton has only been onboard a little over a week, but what is your take? Do you sense any new enthusiasm to get things done now that we have a permanent CEO and Dutta/Studdert are gone? I'd be curious to hear what you've observed. I know the sentiment of many here at WHQ is that it's going to be very tough to avoid bankruptcy. Most feel that there is simply too little time to get the necessary agreements to avoid Ch. 11. I still think there is time, provided Tilton can get the ATSB to give us an extension beyond September 16th. But I just don't have the confidence that the IAM is going to embrace concessions with another representation election on the near horizon. I hope I'm wrong. At the very least, we'll know quickly what kind of leader Tilton is.
----------------
[/blockquote]


Flyer,

Been trying to stay away from all the hand wringing and get my financial house in order for the turbulence ahead! Got the house refinanced, so we should be able to keep the roof over our head!

Anyway, to answer your questions:

I think generally the mood of the pilots is wait and see. The $9 Billion over six years is a non-starter, as we do not have that much to give and still survive! You would not believe the starting point of those negotiations, so we will have to see what the new deal is.

As for Tilton, he is saying all the right things, but what the company really needs from him is to find a $1 billion loan! If he could find some financing to get us over the hump this winter, it would release the pressure valve and allow everyone to work towards a solution wothout being under the gun of the Bush Administration.

As for out on the line, operationally UAL has never been better. Stats are better than almost everyone, but sentiment is still one of fear and loathing for the company, tinged with hope for what Tilton MIGHT be able to do for the company. The pilots are talking openly about all the ways we can save money, but sometimes we can save 300 pounds of gas on one leg only to pi$$ it away out the APU tailpipe while the aircraft sits at the gate during the turn! We need to make the use of Ground Power and Air conditioning the STANDARD and not the exception. We need to start using some of the tools we have at our disposal to make the company better for ALL of us. But there seems to be a general, where are we going and what are we going to be doing about the place. I have been spending MUCH more time at cruise trying to figure out how to save a buck, cut a corner on the route, fly the best altitude for the wind change, etc.. and am seeing good results and positive feedback from the F/Os. Hwever, it is obvious from some of their comments that it is not a widespread practice. I hope it starts to beome one.

I HONESTLY do not think we NEED Chapter 11, but the Bush Administration is trying to make the loan GUARANTEES too expensive for labor to swallow, knowing that if we do not do it, it raises the possibility of bankruptcy exponentially. However, I think all perties agree, the Bush Administration is out to radically change the airline industry by hook or by crook, and this is a perfect tool for the job! I was wondering if you have read the comments of the National Airlines CEO regarding the ATSB? Might provide a more arms length view of the process for you. Try googling National Airlines and I'll bet you can find his comments. Or try a Yahoo Aviation search for his comments. They were about a month ago.

As for the IAM, I have posted my comments on MasterMechanics thread. How do you negotiate with someone who is willing to lose their job for their beliefs and says, No to everything? One can only hope the IAM realizes X% of nothing is nothing, and that they are going to pay one way or the other. However, that said, if the deal remains six years at $700 million per year from ALPA (33% of our total compensation), you might as well book a seat in the courtroom, because that is WAY too much for WAAAAAAAAAAY too long! It would take us back to lower than ESOP wages (1991 timeframe) until 2008!! That would mean the company would have had record profits from our sacrifices for five years and we would be without a raise for 17 years! At a conservative estimate of inflation, which has been at historic lows for most of that time, it would put us about 40% behind in 1991 dollars!! Like i said, non-starter!

However, one has to ask how a company can agree, after months of negotiations, that 10% over three years, with a gradual step up to pre-concessions pay rates over that period was enough two months ago, but now we need THREE times as much for TWICE as long, or SIX TIMES AS MUCH AS THE COMPANY WANTED FOR STABILIZATION!!!

The ATSB is tryng to reorganize NOT stabilize! If you add in the current legislation that is out there from Republicans, such as baseball style arbitration, removal of the right to strike, and the removal of the Age 60 rule, it is clear the piloting profession is under siege. I know what it will take to make things change, but it is too horrible to contemplate at this time. Sooner or later, the quality of individual who will be willing to put up with what it takes to get and keep these jobs, for the price the companies are willing to pay, will suffer. The consequesnces of those actions will be written in blood and the hand wringing that takes place at THAT time will be how to fix what we have done to ourselves!

Hope you have a peaceful 11th. I will be flying, so I will be doing a minute of radio silence at 0746 to honor those men and women who died at the hands of terrorists and those heroes who sacrificed themselves for the greater good.

mancityfan