Glad to have located our flyboys, or is it "the life of the rich and famous"

[Busdrvr]

Who do you fly for Rhino?

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On 8/29/2002 1210 AM

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The government fails us (9/11), and they get 33% of our equity for doing it.
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"The government did not formulate UAL's business model."

A business model that has worked for longer than ANY other airlines model.

"The government did not orchestrate ESOP, which resulted in irresponsible union appointees on the BOD."

NAME ONE irresponsible action from the labor reps on the BOD, besides going along with the non-labor reps

"The government did not appoint Dubinsky MEC prez."

Yep, one union leader is the root of all evil, BTW he's no longer MEC prez

"Sep 11 surely exacerbated/accelerated U/UAL's plight. The airlines already have received the handout, but ATSB loan money is for airlines with viable business plans. UAL union concessions are woefully inadequate from that perspective."

A twnety percent wage cost cut (which is more than 20% to make up for seniority, benefits) puts us below where we were in 1995.

"I don't want my taxes going to a company whose employees are unwilling to make the sacrifices it will take to turn things around."

Tell you what, keep "your" tax money. The UAL employees have prob paid significantly more in taxes over the course of the last 10 years, all we want is a loan GUARENTEE, and OUR taxes should be more than enough to cover that.

"Surely negotiated cuts would be better for all UAL employees than to have a BK judge decide in order to qualify for the ATSB loan. I don't recommend the path U is now on."

After hearing that the ATSB wants 20% wage savings, I'm starting to wonder.




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[gatemech]

What is stopping them from filing BK after concessions? They don't want the ESOP! I would almost bet a paycheck that my stock is history. I read the proposals from UA. They want license, skill, holiday, medical, R&D, among 10.4%. You want to talk straight percent that is one thing. Going after medical is another. I would give 10% to have 100% medical. The older you get the more important that is. And I'm not getting younger. The stupid fools who voted the contract we got because of license pay will lose that. Line mechanics will lose $1.50 skill pay on top of the 10.4%. B-day & Anniversary Day gone. Time off is too precious. And the R&D. Protect those affected by it. I'm sure there will be more. Maybe less. It's just starting. I read that Management will be giving up 5%. IS THAT ALL?!!. What about medical and holidays. Oh I almost forgot. Vacation. Down to 5 weeks max. Will management, cap drop from 6 to 5 weeks? I doubt it. If they want to come after my livelihood then lets do it on an even playing field.

 

[UAL777flyer]

mastermechanic,

I find all your tough-talking bravado amusing considering how the company is going to take from you (and the rest of us) one way or the other. If you vote against any voluntary agreement, you'll simply push them to declaring Chapter 11. That will then wipe out all equity in the company, thereby making all of your ESOP sacrifices moot. Say what you want about your present ESOP stock value. But if UA can avoid bankruptcy and fix its' problems, the stock price will surely rise again. That is virtually a no-brainer. So there is still hope for those shares to be worth something when people retire. Why throw that possibility away when you'll get absolutely nothing for it in return? In fact, you'll get MORE taken away from you in that scenario. And for what? To be able to keep your pride and ego intact and proclaim "we didn't give in to those management b*stards"? How is that a winning scenario when it will inevitably result in significantly more layoffs to employees (including mechanics) and a major shrinking of the company beyond anything you've seen to date?

Stop dealing from anger and emotion. Have the common sense to rise above that by interpreting the facts as they stand today. Give yourself a chance to make your ESOP sacrifice at least worth something when it comes time for you to pack it in and call it a career.

Do you think the rest of us willingly want to give back anything? Of course not. We're all just as angered and disenfranchised by the incompetent leadership of this company as you are. We all want the same changes you want. But we also want this company to survive and grow again and prosper. And giving back is what is necessary to keep this airline going, whether anyone is willing to admit it or not. Why throw it all away just to maintain some misguided sense of personal dignity? Have you been through an airline bankruptcy before? Are you aware of what can/will happen?

Again, I ask you to put aside the anger and emotion and objectively interpet the facts of UA's present situation and make your decisions based on that.

 

[Steiner]

How much are you willing to give up to save the company, UAL777flyer?

 

[whatkindoffreshhell]

gatemech -- just so I understand clearly -- you are unwilling to give up B-Day and anniversary holidays, unwilling to cap at five weeks' vacation and you want 100% medical?

Ayup.

 

[Busdrvr]

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On 8/29/2002 1150 AM



<NAME ONE irresponsible action from the labor reps on the BOD, besides going along with the non-labor reps>

"Where to begin? Vetoing the best qualified CEO?"

Who?

"Pulling the AVOLAR rug out from under?"

Creighton did that, not the union BOD

"Preventing any CEO from taking effective steps to turn UAL around?"

You mean like not wanting them to pay 60 bucks a shrare for U? GMAFB.

"It's a simple fact that union reps will always vote for the parochial interests of their membership when they conflict with the interests of the company."

A strong UAL IS in the best interest of the union. It was the nonUnion BOD members that wanted to spend the excess profits buying back shares, and giving out huge div checks. Get your facts straight for once.


<A twnety percent wage cost cut (which is more than 20% to make up for seniority, benefits) puts us below where we were in 1995.>

"Irrelevant. Your wages were held in check by Shuttle/ESOP, neither of which worked, unfortunately."

That's funny, Shuttle scared Herb enought to talk you guys into a five year pay freeze. UAL took market share from SWA with shuttle, until they decided to make it just a cheap hub feeder.

<Tell you what, keep "your" tax money. The UAL employees have prob paid significantly more in taxes over the course of the last 10 years, all we want is a loan GUARENTEE, and OUR taxes should be more than enough to cover that.>

"They're not, apparently"

We, the UAL ewmployees, will collectively pay more than the 2 billion in taxes this year alone, pluse add in the approx $4 billion in ticket taxes.

 

[Rhino]

<Who?>

Wasn't Goodwin the 'labor friendly' second choice after Greenwald?

<Pulling the AVOLAR rug out from under? Creighton did that, not the union BOD>

Avolar, in the wake of the failed U merger, was another hot-button issue (scope) during IAM negotiations. It was terminated because it was undoable, not because it was a bad idea. So UAL sent this business to the fractionals.

<A strong UAL IS in the best interest of the union.>

Agree 100%. Actions by unions do not always reflect this.

<...Shuttle scared Herb enought to talk you guys into a five year pay freeze. UAL took market share from SWA with shuttle, until they decided to make it just a cheap hub feeder.>

So Shuttle was a huge success? I did not know that.

<We, the UAL ewmployees, will collectively pay more than the 2 billion in taxes this year alone, pluse add in the approx $4 billion in ticket taxes.>

That's the same silly argument that the Imperial Valley farmers use to rationalize their subsidized water rights.

Seriously, I'm not trying to poke a finger in UAL employees' eyes. I sincerely hope you guys turn things around. If you have a solid business plan that will make UAL a viable, healthy carrier, the loans to implement that plan will be forthcoming. Any lender, private or government will insist on significant cost controls as part of that plan.

I'd like to see employee concessions rewarded 10-fold. I don't think that will occur unless labor and management can come to terms.

 

[Rhino]

<Who do you fly for Rhino?>

SWA

<A business model that has worked for longer than ANY other airlines model.>

Not sure what you mean. Are you talking about the United Aircraft & Transport mail routes? The pre-deregulation oliglopoly system? Or was it the synergy to be derived Hilton/Hertz?

<NAME ONE irresponsible action from the labor reps on the BOD, besides going along with the non-labor reps>

Where to begin? Vetoing the best qualified CEO? Pulling the AVOLAR rug out from under? Preventing any CEO from taking effective steps to turn UAL around? It's a simple fact that union reps will always vote for the parochial interests of their membership when they conflict with the interests of the company.

<Yep, one union leader is the root of all evil, BTW he's no longer MEC prez>

"We don't want to kill the Golden Goose, just grab him by the neck and squeeze out every last egg." Ooops, squeezed a little too hard. BTW, Maddog sued and won a six-figure settlement against your own union. I wonder if he has cashed in his ESOP shares before they become worthless? He set the tone for the whole labor vs labor vs management atmosphere.

<A twnety percent wage cost cut (which is more than 20% to make up for seniority, benefits) puts us below where we were in 1995.>

Irrelevant. Your wages were held in check by Shuttle/ESOP, neither of which worked, unfortunately.

<Tell you what, keep &amp;quot;your&amp;quot; tax money. The UAL employees have prob paid significantly more in taxes over the course of the last 10 years, all we want is a loan GUARENTEE, and OUR taxes should be more than enough to cover that.>

They're not, apparently.

<After hearing that the ATSB wants 20% wage savings, I'm starting to wonder.>

I'm surprised that so many UAL pilots/mechs would be willing to throw away their equity in the company. Wouldn't a combination of negotiated wage/productivity/benefit concessions be better than concessions that are imposed?

 

[mastermechanic]

I forgot..."Thanks for flying....the friendly skies"

 

[mastermechanic]

Holy moly Andy...the cats out of the bag now boys!!! Just read the DEMANDS made by the company. This demand is going... going... it's gone out of the park!!!! No guarantee's about further reductions in BK, want to get rid of clauses involving ESOP layoff letters and our farm out. Boys, they are setting the lambs up for slaughter. Oh, and guess what. Believe it or not, I AM willing to do some dealing to SAVE (pilots love that word) the company from the evil doers (someone said that before huh?). But even you "the bastion of hope", those willing to....ah can it. This isn't going to work folks. So you see, the mechanic jobs are going anyways. They'll probably get most of it to from a judge too, but hey, this could turn out to be the best part time job I ever had. It will support my schooling for another trade as well as help fund my business. But we won't be fixing them planes much boss, cause we need to rest and study.[:bigsmile:]

 

[UAL777flyer]

gatemech,

Where did you read about the latest management paycut proposal? The 5% proposal was from the original ERP. The new one hasn't been released yet. Do you have an inside source Because we've been told to expect it will be anywhere from 10-15% and will include medical changes and vacation/holiday changes. As far as protecting jobs, I think you need to understand that job cuts are coming either way. If it's bankruptcy, the job cuts will probably be massive. But I think it's safe to say that either way, this airline is going to get smaller. The only question is HOW much smaller? I think that will depend on whether we restructure outside of bankruptcy or are forced to file Chapter 11.

 

[mastermechanic]

UAL777flyer,
Can you tell me why the company would not file chapter11? Not fighting, just asking for your opinion since you say you have insight on the financial situation.

 

[UAL777flyer]

Steiner,

I'm willing to give what it takes. If that proves to be too much for me to afford, than I'll have no choice but to look to leave UA. My wife and I both work at UA. We both are staring at large paycuts that will significantly impact our lifestyle, just like everyone else. I have no set percentage of what I'm willing to give because I have absolutely ZERO control over it. However, I know in my mind what my wife and I can afford to give without having to sell our house and other painful things. As I said, if the percentage is north of that number, than I'll be forced to do some painful things that I would prefer not to do. But my loyalty lies in doing everything I can to help this company succeed. I came from a losing airline that is no longer around (TWA). I spent nearly 12 years there watching that company die. I don't want to go through it again. I watched as opportunities to turn things around were wasted by both labor and management. UA has an opportunity to fix itself under its' own control. However, certain groups don't seem willing to do that. I am, as painful as it may end up being.

 

[UAL777flyer]

kcabpilot,

Your answer comes under the inaccurate assumption that the same people who led us into this nightmare will be around if/when bankruptcy happens. That won't be the case.

And anyone who thinks UA has nothing to lose by declaring bankruptcy is naive and needs to take a train to reality.

Have you ever gone through an airline bankruptcy before, kcabpilot?

 

[kcabpilot]

"Your answer comes under the inaccurate assumption that the same people who led us into this nightmare will be around if/when bankruptcy happens. That won't be the case."

Now you have me really confused. Are you saying this is "good" or "bad"?

"Have you ever gone through an airline bankruptcy before, kcabpilot?"

No, but it looks like I'm about to and if you think that how I vote on my concession package has anything to do with it we can start another argument about who is "naive"
You and I, my freind are just along for the ride.

Good luck to all of us.