"fooled Again By Ward"

[woztwa]

Blah...Blah, surely you cannot believe your own statement, "It was, after all, the IAM AND the APFA who ironed out the details concerning the integration (or stapling) of our work groups." We would love to hear anything about when and how the above was accomplished. Correct me if I am wrong, but APFA refused to meet with IAM and never negotiated anything with IAM. In fact APFA met secretly with AA to staple the TWAers. When TWAers found out about these meetings, they attempted to join but were denied. And AA had promised to stay out of any negotiations while APFA and IAM were supposed to meet under the direction of Richard Kasher. Who knows what the courst will decide but I betting these issues and many more will be presented to a jury.

Amen, Captain, please visit the US Fed. Banktupty Records--AA/TWA ironed out the agreement----period. Without the statement by Don Carty, this deal would have never went thru the DOL=== it was required that BOTH unions meet and the IAM reps were LOCkED out of the APFA=without the required mediation..ie, lawsuit. This is why the AFL-CIO hates APFA and they have NOT been able to affiliate with ANY national/international unions. APFA is ALONE!!!!!
APFA are poison to all unions who stand for the worker...Sorry, they lose..

 

[woztwa]

Please let me open this by admitting that I DO share your disappointment (to put it mildly) with Mr.Ward and his pack. However, as a very junior nAAtive f/a, I am not sure that the AA/TWA would have resulted in anything other than Resolution #4, and that although the BOD did pass that Resolution, it was done so by the wishes of the majority of the existing APFA members. Even with ANY sort of integration (1 year for 10, etc), many of the junior nAAtives would have droped down significantly in the seniority list, and subsequently be on furlough today. Of course, the end result is that now all former TWA flight attendants are out on furlough, and for that I am sorry. It's a particularly difficult time to be out of a job, and I do wish you either a speedy return to the line, a windfall in the lottery, or a better job offer (that's not saying much, nowadays!).

Seniority, although "just a number" is such an emotional issue... and we can see how that has played out on this site and other ones similar to this one. I must point out, however, that it I feel it unfair to blame the APFA and thus all it's members for the situation as we have it today concerning the AA/TWA hostilities. It was, after all, the IAM AND the APFA who ironed out the details concerning the integration (or stapling) of our work groups. And as much as dislike JW, he is the one bearing the brunt of this at this time... where is the IAM BOD or negotiating team now? And, like I said, not happy with JW, it was JW's task to protect his members best interests, and in THIS case (AA/TWA integration), that is what he did... well, almost, it's STILL in court. If anything OTHER than Resolution #4 was to pass, most APFA members would have been outraged, as you (former TWA) are today with the outcome.

IF things didn't turn out like they did... IF the fence around STL had remained in place, IF IF IF... who is to blame for that? The company? The union? Both? Who knows... There could only be conjectures, and nothing more, I suspect; who would be dumb enough to leave any sort of proof otherwise??!!

With all due respect, was there a solution that would have kept all F/A's from being furloughed? I really doubt it. I know, CO did not furlough any F/A's nor are they taking such massive paycuts... but you have to understand, AA is NOT CO... obviously, because CO seems to respect their employees, which is why Fortune has once again, named them as one of the best company's to work for. AA was planning, in my opionion, to take full advantage of the cost-cutting, furlough bandwagon. And why not? Everyone else was doing it (except CO), so why can we? AA took full advantage of the situation, threatened it's employees with bankruptcy (BOO! Look at United and USAirways!!), and we fell for it, hook, line and sinker. I know that the former TWA people had been through similar circumstances before, and warned us... and yes, many of you were right; we were being taken for a ride. But can you blame many of us for being suspicious of your intentions and leary of your track record? Many nAAtives felt that TWAers had nothing to loose if AA were in BK. And your track record... alhough you definately made many accomplishments in your years with TWA, you are, unfortunately, remembered for your failed strike. Please let me reitterate; I am NOT making judgements, I am only trying to give you an insight into how many TWAers are perceived by many nAAtives.

I think someone mentioned it earlier, but whatever the court decides, it will be legal and binding, and either way, hopefully, the seniority debate will be layed to rest... although, somehow I doubt it.

There were THREE RPA's--did you know that??? JW picked the worst--you getting any sleep??? Think not

 

[L1011Ret]

The wishes of the majority, it was a mandate? Could someone fill me in on how APFA knew it was the wish of the majority or a mandate? On other BBs, AA F/As are saying there was no majority or mandate. The closest anyone can find about this subject is that a number of F/As on APFA BBs wanted a "staple." But since do few F/As joined the APFA BB, less than 700 we are led to believe, where is the "majority" or mandate? Did APFA educate its members about the effects of stapling, DOH, slotting, etc.? What information were F/As provided? It would appear to be less information than was put out about the concessionary contract. Perhaps some knowledgable poster can inform us.

 

[blAAh-blAAh-blAAh]

The wishes of the majority, it was a mandate? Could someone fill me in on how APFA knew it was the wish of the majority or a mandate? On other BBs, AA F/As are saying there was no majority or mandate. The closest anyone can find about this subject is that a number of F/As on APFA BBs wanted a "staple." But since do few F/As joined the APFA BB, less than 700 we are led to believe, where is the "majority" or mandate? Did APFA educate its members about the effects of stapling, DOH, slotting, etc.? What information were F/As provided? It would appear to be less information than was put out about the concessionary contract. Perhaps some knowledgable poster can inform us.

There was no formal mandate or referendum, as I am aware. I suspect that the BOD acted on the feelings of those who were vocal, and spoke with or phoned their base chairperson (as I did).

Were we educated as to the effects of stapling, DOH, etc.? Well, forgive me if I am assuming too much, but it pretty much went without saying that we all (give a few) aware of what stapling, etc. was. The upshot of the whole thing was that I cannot think of on AAer who thought TWA should get DOH or even a slot-system.

I am sorry, it's nothing personal at all (my auntie is ex TWA), but I, nor any other nAAtive, can be blamed for wanting to preserve their seniority.

 

[jimntx]

The upshot of the whole thing was that I cannot think of on AAer who thought TWA should get DOH or even a slot-system.

Then you didn't look or ask very many people. There are nAAtives (I'm one) who believe in true unionism. In other words, I and others believe in being fair; even though I personally may be inconvenienced. But then that wouldn't be the AApfa way now would it?

"The major activity of the modern conservative is to find justification for being selfish." John Kenneth Galbraith

"There are fleeting moments in each and every day when it is, in fact, not about you. Try to be aware of them." Me

 

[blAAh-blAAh-blAAh]

Then you didn't look or ask very many people. There are nAAtives (I'm one) who believe in true unionism. In other words, I and others believe in being fair; even though I personally may be inconvenienced. But then that wouldn't be the AApfa way now would it?

In fact, I have spoken with many people concerning this issue, and with the exception of a few that I have spoken with, most do agree with stapling.

This is not to say, that if I were an exTWA person that I would feel differently. Like I have said in an earlier post, I do understand their point of view. If I were in their shoes, I'd be doing the same thing (fighting it in court).

I do find it interesting though, that some people find that they are in the position of judging what is "right" and what is "wrong."

Who made you Peter at the Gate?

 

[jimntx]

I do find it interesting though, that some people find that they are in the position of judging what is "right" and what is "wrong."

Who made you Peter at the Gate?

And, just what do you think that YOU have been doing ad nauseum other than judging what is right and what is wrong?

Oh, I forgot. When a still-employed, JW-supporting member of AApfa posts, it is just dispassionate logic, looking at the "facts." When anyone posts that might disagree with these "facts", it's being judgmental. Now, I understand.

"I have a deep and rich fantasy life. If I liked reality, I would spend more time there." Average JW supporter

 

[TransWorldONE]

I do find it interesting though, that some people find that they are in the position of judging what is "right" and what is "wrong."

Who made you Peter at the Gate?

And, just what do you think that YOU have been doing ad nauseum other than judging what is right and what is wrong?

Oh, I forgot. When a still-employed, JW-supporting member of AApfa posts, it is just dispassionate logic, looking at the "facts." When anyone posts that might disagree with these "facts", it's being judgmental. Now, I understand.

"I have a deep and rich fantasy life. If I liked reality, I would spend more time there." Average JW supporter

Exactly...it seems alot of people judged it right to staple us, close our bases and satalites make every one commute to STL, fence us in, then take the only international we had left and give it to deadheaded in nAAtives, furlough an entire base and emport people against their will to replace everyone who were supposed to be "relatively" safe in our little ghetto, and all this without offering overage leaves at other bases, that could possibly have saved some of us. I personally DO judge that wrong.

 

[L1011Ret]

Great post TW1, you stated your complaint, how you felt about it and neither blamed nor attacked anyone. bb

 

[gdpflyer]

but I, nor any other nAAtive, can be blamed for wanting to preserve their seniority. ???

preserve? you didn't preserve your seniority. you can engage in all the rhetoric you want, but the bottom line is that AA added substantial routes and planes and business with the merger....Business that supported 4000 twa flight attendants.
And by placing the 4000 twa flight attendants on the bottom of the seniority list,
come 9/11 and the resultant faltering airline business, you basically used those 4000 flight attendants as fodder.... There is less business....but it is less business that was AA business, as well as TWA business....if no merger, then there would have been a number of AA flight attendants furloughed.
No one blames anyone for wanting to keep their RELATIVE seniority in place.
Slotting would have accomplished that.....if you were 10,000 out of 20,000
at AA, then you should still be 12,000 our of 24,000....that would be "preserving" your seniority. And FAIR. The fact you dropped 2,000 would not have mattered, as TWA brought to the merger a lot of business. You would have had far more options available. But that didn't happen. You used 4000 twa flight attendants, temporarily to keep the vast majority of AA flight attendants working. 30+ year veterans are on the street while 2 year seniority are flying.... What will happen is that the COURTS will decide this issue. And a JURY will decide whether or not it was FAIR....I can see ANY jury deciding that a staple job was fair....The pilots didn't staple, the mechanice didn't staple.....ONLY John Ward and APFA did that....and they didn't negotiate in good faith...they didn't negotiate at all......AND that will come back to haunt you.
I just wonder how much $$ the twa'ers will get. And how close to date of hire seniority, as well.... ALL because of John and company. He has taken the AA flight attendants from a leading edge contract of the largest airline in the world, to a really sad contract with almost no protection for the f/as. The AA flight attendants have really lousy work conditions, terrible layovers, no trip protection, no furlough pay,etc.etc.etc. AND at a reduced salary....what did he get in return???? NADA
What a fool, yet you follow like sheep......

 

[blAAh-blAAh-blAAh]

And, just what do you think that YOU have been doing ad nauseum other than judging what is right and what is wrong?

Oh, I forgot. When a still-employed, JW-supporting member of AApfa posts, it is just dispassionate logic, looking at the "facts." When anyone posts that might disagree with these "facts", it's being judgmental. Now, I understand.

"I have a deep and rich fantasy life. If I liked reality, I would spend more time there." Average JW supporter

ad nauseum? i only starting posting here recently, so i'd say the more "senior post-ers" would be the ones beating this issue "ad nauseum."

and for the record, i believe that i am the only one here who has stated that i can see both sides of this issue, and i have tried to be diplomatic and polite. your personal attack is really out of order.

another thing for the record... i am not a JW supporter, not have i made any reference to supporting him, so please stop making such references. talk about disregarding facts.

last thing, i am aware you are furloughed... i don't know if you are bitter or what, or resent people still employed, but something of that nature is quite evident in your postings (the sarcasm, etc.), despite your poetic-like closures.

 

[blAAh-blAAh-blAAh]

but I, nor any other nAAtive, can be blamed for wanting to preserve their seniority. ???

preserve? you didn't preserve your seniority. you can engage in all the rhetoric you want, but the bottom line is that AA added substantial routes and planes and business with the merger....Business that supported 4000 twa flight attendants.
And by placing the 4000 twa flight attendants on the bottom of the seniority list,
come 9/11 and the resultant faltering airline business, you basically used those 4000 flight attendants as fodder.... There is less business....but it is less business that was AA business, as well as TWA business....if no merger, then there would have been a number of AA flight attendants furloughed.
No one blames anyone for wanting to keep their RELATIVE seniority in place.
Slotting would have accomplished that.....if you were 10,000 out of 20,000
at AA, then you should still be 12,000 our of 24,000....that would be "preserving" your seniority. And FAIR. The fact you dropped 2,000 would not have mattered, as TWA brought to the merger a lot of business. You would have had far more options available. But that didn't happen. You used 4000 twa flight attendants, temporarily to keep the vast majority of AA flight attendants working. 30+ year veterans are on the street while 2 year seniority are flying.... What will happen is that the COURTS will decide this issue. And a JURY will decide whether or not it was FAIR....I can see ANY jury deciding that a staple job was fair....The pilots didn't staple, the mechanice didn't staple.....ONLY John Ward and APFA did that....and they didn't negotiate in good faith...they didn't negotiate at all......AND that will come back to haunt you.
I just wonder how much $$ the twa'ers will get. And how close to date of hire seniority, as well.... ALL because of John and company. He has taken the AA flight attendants from a leading edge contract of the largest airline in the world, to a really sad contract with almost no protection for the f/as. The AA flight attendants have really lousy work conditions, terrible layovers, no trip protection, no furlough pay,etc.etc.etc. AND at a reduced salary....what did he get in return???? NADA
What a fool, yet you follow like sheep......

first off I didn't do anything... if you're refering to AA, please say so. this whole thing smacks of personal attacks, and is really sad.

yes, AA clearly acquired TWA for strategic business reasons. greedily, they snapped it up (at too high of a price) so that the likes of CO UA or DL didn't go in for the kill. and i do say kill. i think the state of TWA was perilous, despite what i read here.

what has happened since? AA is sitting on routes and destinations that they aren't serving, they've gotten rid of a ton of TWA aircraft and they're slowly slowing STL down.

so, if TWA was such a catch, why then is AA in such bad shape? yes, management bears a lot of that responsibility. the economy another part. i am not saying that TWA is the sole contibutor to the state AA is in now, but it certainly didn't help.

believe me, I wish it never happened!! whatever the result of this seniority issue, it's going to end in grief. if TWA is successful, the infighting will never end. it's bad enough having a 1993 scab on board, never mind what it will be like with an integrated TWA-AA seniority list (especially for those at TWA who left when the writing on the wall and came to AA).

and the reference that a 2 year or a 5 year nAAtive is basically expendible is really insulting; as if everyone who would be junior (and close to furlough) to a TWA person really owes it to them to just basically say, "oh ok, here's my job."

let me just get it straight; TWA want top of scale, vacation, retirement and seniority? ok, anything else? i could move out of my apartment if any TWAer needs a place more convenient to the airport if you'd like!

 

[gdpflyer]

you dont get it....NO ONES job was expendable...or necessary....that is the point.
the involuntary furloughs were not needed...there were LOTS of ways to save peoples jobs..... and bout "top pay"....AA doesn't have top pay...they have top hourly rate, but you pay for insurance, you pay for retirement....a mot more goes into having "top" pay than the hourly rate...and now you don't even have top hourly rate, yet you still pay for the other things...only thing top pay at AA is John Ward's salary.... anyway, this horse has been beaten nearly to death. But mark my word, it will go to jury trial due to short sightedness on the part of APFA & Ward, and there will be a much bigger price to pay than could have been worked out. And then ALL the things that were done to stick it to the twa'ers will be in place already to stick it to AA'ers. NO furlough pay, no unlimited re-call, etc.etc.
anyway..I am done with this topic....you can not educate people who want to stick their heads in the sand.

 

[jimntx]

ad nauseum? i only starting posting here recently, so i'd say the more "senior post-ers" would be the ones beating this issue "ad nauseum."

and for the record, i believe that i am the only one here who has stated that i can see both sides of this issue, and i have tried to be diplomatic and polite. your personal attack is really out of order.

another thing for the record... i am not a JW supporter, not have i made any reference to supporting him, so please stop making such references. talk about disregarding facts.

last thing, i am aware you are furloughed... i don't know if you are bitter or what, or resent people still employed, but something of that nature is quite evident in your postings (the sarcasm, etc.), despite your poetic-like closures.

Yeah, but if your first post is just parroting what has been said before it still qualifies as ad nauseum. If you can lump those into a group that disagree with you then you can be lumped in with all who have gone before who take your "my seniority comes before anyone or anything" attitude.

And now we find out that not only are you the only poster here who is compassionate, open to both sides, AND logical, we discover that you are also psychic. Unfortunately, your powers, oh great swami, fail you. Yes, I am a furloughed f/a, but anyone who knows me will tell you that bitter is not a word anyone would apply to me, nor am I jealous of anyone still working. It's the people who are still working who seem to feel the need to accuse me of negative feelings; so, I respond in kind. I don't HAVE to work. I was a flight attendant because I loved doing the job. And, if I don't do it at AA in the future, I will do it somewhere else. ATA is hiring; Frontier is hiring; AE is hiring. Why ever would I be bitter about a situation that is so easily changed?

"The trouble with people is not that they don't know but that they know so much that ain't so." Josh Billings, 1874

 

[TransWorldONE]

Per blAAh:

" let me just get it straight; TWA want top of scale, vacation, retirement and seniority? ok, anything else? i could move out of my apartment if any TWAer needs a place more convenient to the airport if you'd like! "


To be accurate all those things were givin to us by the company to reflect our years of service....hmmm....years of service, Seems like AA was willing to recognize that, and I don't even remember hearing of anyone negotiating any of these perks. The ONE thing that we asked for in the begining from APFA (NOT doh but to at least to sit down and talk about a fair integration) was ignored, refused. We were disrespected and at first most of us didnt expect anything NEAR doh...not anymore.