"fooled Again By Ward"

[blAAh-blAAh-blAAh]

"Second pennie is that I will not vote for anyone of the "slates" as they are put together now. I will break up my vote this time...
I am affraid however that breaking up the votes I will help instead of impead John Ward's reelection."

-I think you are right; breaking up a vote is almost like wasting one. It's like voting for the Green candidate on the federal level; he might be the right guy, but he (or she) doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell of getting elected.

 

[blAAh-blAAh-blAAh]

As far as the AA/TWA people and hostility. I blame apfa. Because of their stance on eliminating their jobs, rather than come up with a solution to keep ALL f/a's - was a beginning of many problems for apfa.

Please let me open this by admitting that I DO share your disappointment (to put it mildly) with Mr.Ward and his pack. However, as a very junior nAAtive f/a, I am not sure that the AA/TWA would have resulted in anything other than Resolution #4, and that although the BOD did pass that Resolution, it was done so by the wishes of the majority of the existing APFA members. Even with ANY sort of integration (1 year for 10, etc), many of the junior nAAtives would have droped down significantly in the seniority list, and subsequently be on furlough today. Of course, the end result is that now all former TWA flight attendants are out on furlough, and for that I am sorry. It's a particularly difficult time to be out of a job, and I do wish you either a speedy return to the line, a windfall in the lottery, or a better job offer (that's not saying much, nowadays!).

Seniority, although "just a number" is such an emotional issue... and we can see how that has played out on this site and other ones similar to this one. I must point out, however, that it I feel it unfair to blame the APFA and thus all it's members for the situation as we have it today concerning the AA/TWA hostilities. It was, after all, the IAM AND the APFA who ironed out the details concerning the integration (or stapling) of our work groups. And as much as dislike JW, he is the one bearing the brunt of this at this time... where is the IAM BOD or negotiating team now? And, like I said, not happy with JW, it was JW's task to protect his members best interests, and in THIS case (AA/TWA integration), that is what he did... well, almost, it's STILL in court. If anything OTHER than Resolution #4 was to pass, most APFA members would have been outraged, as you (former TWA) are today with the outcome.

IF things didn't turn out like they did... IF the fence around STL had remained in place, IF IF IF... who is to blame for that? The company? The union? Both? Who knows... There could only be conjectures, and nothing more, I suspect; who would be dumb enough to leave any sort of proof otherwise??!!

With all due respect, was there a solution that would have kept all F/A's from being furloughed? I really doubt it. I know, CO did not furlough any F/A's nor are they taking such massive paycuts... but you have to understand, AA is NOT CO... obviously, because CO seems to respect their employees, which is why Fortune has once again, named them as one of the best company's to work for. AA was planning, in my opionion, to take full advantage of the cost-cutting, furlough bandwagon. And why not? Everyone else was doing it (except CO), so why can we? AA took full advantage of the situation, threatened it's employees with bankruptcy (BOO! Look at United and USAirways!!), and we fell for it, hook, line and sinker. I know that the former TWA people had been through similar circumstances before, and warned us... and yes, many of you were right; we were being taken for a ride. But can you blame many of us for being suspicious of your intentions and leary of your track record? Many nAAtives felt that TWAers had nothing to loose if AA were in BK. And your track record... alhough you definately made many accomplishments in your years with TWA, you are, unfortunately, remembered for your failed strike. Please let me reitterate; I am NOT making judgements, I am only trying to give you an insight into how many TWAers are perceived by many nAAtives.

I think someone mentioned it earlier, but whatever the court decides, it will be legal and binding, and either way, hopefully, the seniority debate will be layed to rest... although, somehow I doubt it.

 

[L1011Ret]

Blah...Blah, surely you cannot believe your own statement, "It was, after all, the IAM AND the APFA who ironed out the details concerning the integration (or stapling) of our work groups." We would love to hear anything about when and how the above was accomplished. Correct me if I am wrong, but APFA refused to meet with IAM and never negotiated anything with IAM. In fact APFA met secretly with AA to staple the TWAers. When TWAers found out about these meetings, they attempted to join but were denied. And AA had promised to stay out of any negotiations while APFA and IAM were supposed to meet under the direction of Richard Kasher. Who knows what the courst will decide but I betting these issues and many more will be presented to a jury.

 

[kirkpatrick]

It was, after all, the IAM AND the APFA who ironed out the details concerning the integration (or stapling) of our work groups.

That is a ridiculous statement, as L1011 Ret pointed out. There was no discussion whatsoever between the IAM and APFA. APFA refused every offer to get together for discussion.

With all due respect, was there a solution that would have kept all F/A's from being furloughed? I really doubt it.

No one could have prevented furloughs, but the APFA BOD could have selected concessions that resulted in far fewer furloughs. Many jobs could have been saved, with quicker recalls for those whose furloughs couldn't be avoided.

And your track record... alhough you definately made many accomplishments in your years with TWA, you are, unfortunately, remembered for your failed strike. Please let me reitterate; I am NOT making judgements, I am only trying to give you an insight into how many TWAers are perceived by many nAAtives.

That is insulting in the extreme. It's like saying Davy Crockett is only remembered for failing at the Alamo. No one ever said the TWA strike was a success, but the strength and solidarity shown by TWA FA's during those eleven weeks are unparalleled in airline history

MK

 

[L1011Ret]

Yes, talking about a "failed strike" by persons who were not there and have no knoeledge of the issues, can only be another indication of failed rationalizations to support their conclusions about the TWAers. Making up stories to "prove" your position?

 

[QQ3270]

i dont know why TWA is still crying over spilled milk you guys got a little bettter deal than we did and we were not a broke Airline




get over it vote for a new leader
in APFA and move fwd

 

[jsn25911]

i dont know why TWA is still crying over spilled milk you guys got a little bettter deal than we did and we were not a broke Airline




get over it vote for a new leader
in APFA and move fwd

It amazes me how uninformed you are - It was far from being over - it never even started. Maybe they gave you what was promised, however, TWA was not given what was promised. Therefore, it is not over!

I must say your favorite words are "Get over it".

I think we need to wait until after the court case - then the winning side can say
"GET OVER IT!"

 

[L1011Ret]

I'd like to hear QQ's reasoning behind his/her statement about the better deal. All TWA F/As are furloughed but certainly not Reno F/As.

 

[QQ3270]

well lets see i went to the bottom of the seniority list and if this would have been the timming TWA was in i would have been laid off second i didnt get date of acuisition i got date of transition so i had almost 1yr of new hires in front of me. I went to the bottom and was promised a fair and transition but found out the same way twa did So what is TWA supposed to go ahead of me after i went to the bottom
?Please dont tell me you think so because if you do then i know you will never feel that anyone but TWA got screwed and at that point i wouldnt

give acrap

and as far as the courts go we lost twice in court and i will be willing to bet TWA will 2


later

 

[jsn25911]

well lets see i went to the bottom of the seniority list and if this would have been the timming TWA was in i would have been laid off second i didnt get date of acuisition i got date of transition so i had almost 1yr of new hires in front of me. I went to the bottom and was promised a fair and transition but found out the same way twa did So what is TWA supposed to go ahead of me after i went to the bottom
?Please dont tell me you think so because if you do then i know you will never feel that anyone but TWA got screwed and at that point i wouldnt

give acrap

and as far as the courts go we lost twice in court and i will be willing to bet TWA will 2


later

I agree that Reno got a bad deal also - I do not disagree with you concerning that. "But, two wrongs do not make a right". I do not know the circumstances concerning Reno and AA. I only know the circumstances with Ozark/TWA and the circumstances with TWA/AA will come out in court.

As far as betting if TWA will win or not - I refuse to do that. You are entitled to your opinion, as I am entitled to mine. All I am saying is that the words "Get over it" are inappropriate because no one knows how the courts will settle this.

 

[kirkpatrick]

i dont know why TWA is still crying over spilled milk you guys got a little bettter deal than we did and we were not a broke Airline

I would gladly never mention the subject again, but when someone says the IAM and APFA together came up with the seniority integration agreement, or that the concessions couldn't have been handled differently, or that all we are remembered for is a failed strike eighteen years ago, well, I just can't let that go unchallenged.

BTW, I agree you got a bad deal also. In some respects worse than ours, except for the timing.

MK

 

[L1011Ret]

Yes, I would agree s/he got a bad deal. Of course it is thus not strange that some AAers think TWA got a good deal because they were given seniority from the date of the acquisition. As some AAers would have it, 40 hours of AA seniority goes ahead of 40 years of TWA seniority. There is probably some big differences between Reno and TWA, one that jumps right out is the promises of Carty "fair and equitable" and we, AA, will furlough "equally." His word was worthless to Congress, TWAers and other government regulatory agencies.

 

[blAAh-blAAh-blAAh]

Blah...Blah, surely you cannot believe your own statement, "It was, after all, the IAM AND the APFA who ironed out the details concerning the integration (or stapling) of our work groups." We would love to hear anything about when and how the above was accomplished. Correct me if I am wrong, but APFA refused to meet with IAM and never negotiated anything with IAM. In fact APFA met secretly with AA to staple the TWAers. When TWAers found out about these meetings, they attempted to join but were denied.

I stand corrected. I only ASSUMED that the IAM & APFA met to discuss the details of integration (stapling). You can understand how many nAAtives would be in the dark about this; if we don't hear it from the union and we are not affected, then how can we know? It was something that wasn't really talked about... the ONLY thing we were concerned about, as F/A's was that we would MAINTAIN our seniority; pay, vacation, etc. was left up to the Company. When this was in the works, I called my union rep. and stressed that I didn't care if someone from TWA was going to get top-dollar; my only concern was that I did not slip in seniority. The "fairness" of DOH, or anything other than stapling, can be debated to such a passionate extent, matched only by the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, until the cows come home.

 

[blAAh-blAAh-blAAh]

As some AAers would have it, 40 hours of AA seniority goes ahead of 40 years of TWA seniority.

I can understand the TWA perspective. What disappoints me is that TWA never seems to see things from the junior nAAtive point of view.

 

[L1011Ret]

I do not doubt for a moment that you treated very badly. Not for one moment. And having been shafted as you describe, I can appreciate you concern about you seniority. When you have been shafted big time, it is hard to see anyone else's point of view or empathsize with their point of view. When you have treated reasonably fairly, then one can be open to the more altruistic feelings.