First Flight in About 3 years

[redheadtempe33]

Redhead,



Also, for what it's worth, if it costs you more than $172 to provide the transportation for that route, then you have NO business offering a fare like that which deliberately loses money. Having to add fees to that $172 is deceptive at best. In any other industry other than this selling CONSISTENTLY below cost would be called dumping, and is in fact illegal.

What really needs to happen is for the airline business to price its product REALISTICALLY in line with what the actual COSTS are.

For the majority of business travelers, it's as much about VALUE as it is price. I'd spend an extra $100 on a ticket if it were fully changeable, knowing that the lower priced ticket would cost $150 or more to change....THAT's where WN has been smart. If you offer a little more flexibility for a slightly higher fare, you would see AVERAGE fares increase....but no one has the guts to do it....perhaps except WN.

So yes perspective is in order....and I respectfully disagree with yours...

I was not speaking as to the profitibility of the fares. All the airlines price their product under cost in an insane attempt to steal market share. I agree it is moronic, but I don't work at headquarters (I just live in Tempe), so not a lot most of us at US Airways can do. I also agree that WN provides a better product for what you pay. For me, it wasn't the bag fees as much as the change, UM, standby, etc. fees, but I was comparing to Continental, who charges the same fees as US in that regard.

 

[redheadtempe33]

I'd agree with your point IF CO told their passengers "No meal today (or glassware, ife, etc) because our fare was $$$ lower than Brand X. Or if US has the higher fare US offered better service than CO. But that isn't the case, is it?

Who sets the US fare? Tempe. If Tempe wants to charge less is that the passenger's fault? If not, why should the passengers expect a lower class product just because of Tempe's decision on what to charge?

That is a marketing issue and I agree that US does not put it out there enough. US needs to market itself as a no-frills but low fare carrier. WN seems to do quite well at it. Continental should, in turn, say "we may be more expensive, but we serve meals, have glassware, etc".

 

[BoeingBoy]

US needs to market itself as a no-frills but low fare carrier.

Have you looked at the website and what it says about the on-board product? US markets itself as a "full service" airline, like CO/UA/AA/DL(NW). And US definitely isn't a low cost airline in the normal sense. Lower on some routes, higher on others in relation to the other "full service airlines" but definitely not low cost. With the highest CASM in the industry (not counting RJ providers) US can't afford to be low cost. (BTS, 3rd quarter 2009)

Of course, when you offer an inferior product you can't charge higher fares than the other guys. To reverse your earlier analogy, you can't charge for "a seven course meal with servers in tuxedos" while providing an "Applebee's" product.

Jim

 

[SparrowHawk]

With the highest CASM in the industry (not counting RJ providers) US can't afford to be low cost. (BTS, 3rd quarter 2009)

Of course, when you offer an inferior product you can't charge higher fares than the other guys. To reverse your earlier analogy, you can't charge for "a seven course meal with servers in tuxedos" while providing an "Applebee's" product.

Jim

B-I-N-G-O!!! Hold your cards we have a winner!

Advertise Full Serviice Carrier - Deliver below WN amenities in many cases
Lard on Fees - Because you're NOT a low cost carrier
Deliver the highest number of Consumer Complaints year in, year out - WHY? Just read the words of youe very own CEO for the answer.

If I had to describe US in one word it would be FRAUD

 

[Travels2mch]

But how much was it?

So are you saying that the level of service you receive depends on the price of your ticket?

 

[redheadtempe33]

So are you saying that the level of service you receive depends on the price of your ticket?

Well I can see I am making friends on this board today!

Yes, certainly. Don't get me wrong. Everbody should still receive good service, though those who pay more should receive the best.

With the highest CASM in the industry (not counting RJ providers) US can't afford to be low cost. (BTS, 3rd quarter 2009)

Jim

And that is a problem that I would have no idea how to solve.
Jim, I'm curious, I have heard from the pilots to the FA's, to the ground staff that we pay consistently less than other "major" airlines. Is this true? If so why is our CASM still high? I know that employees gave up a lot in the two BK's. Why would the CASM (ex fuel) remain so high?

Deliver the highest number of Consumer Complaints year in, year out - WHY? Just read the words of youe very own CEO for the answer.

If I had to describe US in one word it would be FRAUD
[/quote/]

Actually, in 2009, Delta has consistently been the worst in complaints.

 

[ChockJockey]

The flight left on time

As far as Tempe is concerned your flight was a jolly right success and you are another satisfied customer.

See you again in three years.




:unsure:

 

[Art at ISP]

As far as Tempe is concerned your flight was a jolly right success and you are another satisfied customer.

See you again in three years.




:unsure:

Chock Jockey,

You, sir, have just highlighted the root problem in a nutshell!!! I could not have said it better myself.

They clearly do not see the forest but for the trees.

Sparrowhawk, while I think that they might not necessarily meet the burden of proof for fraud, the words misleading, deceptive, shoddy and cheap do come to mind.

Redhead,

In no way do I place any of the blame for the current state of US on its front line employees, who were, at one time the best in the industry (most of them at least). As I have said previously, just about the only thing I miss about US is the fine folks I have become friendly with over the years.

To your comment about profitability, at the end of the day, it is about profitability..because yields are very low right now, making it difficult to stay above water. Much of the high volume high yield business has in fact gone elsewhere, and the brain trust in Tempe do not seem the slightest bit concerned-which is cause for alarm.

IF the numbers provided to me in surveys we conducted are correct, we have assisted in the migration of approximately $3.5 to $5 million a year of business to other carriers-for no other reason than these high value customers got fed up and asked us to help them find a new home. For all of those we know about, there are likey thousands we don't know about, so you can do the math.

A study once showed that the top 20% of flyers contribute between 40 and 43% of revenue. It seems to me that any business which finds itself in such a condition wuld be bending over backwards to retain and please that group. Unfortunately, as in a number of cases, Scott and Doug have done the opposite.

Sorry I don't mean to beleaguer the point. It's a free market. Basically I think it is safe to say all airlines have issues, US just has more than most from a customer perception.

I do agree that they need to define themselves. It is definitely misleading to represent themselves as a full service carrier, and a low cost carrier at the same time....they are neither...I will say they are unique though....

My BEST to you all...

 

[TBONEJ4J]

The flight left on time, and that's all they, the management aristocracy in Tempe, care about.

Because that is the only parameter that they base their bonuses on.

Nothing else.

Customer complaints, lost bags, product service and styling a la 1980's vintage Aeroflot, beaten down miserable employees, carnies in the concourse mugging unsuspecting passengers to sell credit cards, etc., etc., none of it hurts the bonus.

Let's keep up the good work with the on-time performance.

 

[FlyOnWall]

You realize that Us Airways is a Low Cost Carrier.... the party cup was offered because US is a low cost carrier...I really dont know what you were expecting of a LOW COST CARRIER

How is US Airways a low cost carrier? It has the highest Cost per Available Seat Mile of the major airlines. So that in fact makes it a high cost carrier...

 

[EyeInTheSky]

As much as I think US Airways employees are some of the best in the business they are dealt a losing hand with the lack of management leadership and vision. US Airways has service problems that most frequent fliers go out of their way to avoid.

Case in point: International service in business and coach is substandard to the competition. What's worse -- the fares are the same and sometimes higher than the competition. I had a choice this weekend out of PHL to fly US Airways or Lufthansa business class to Europe - it was simply a no-brainer - Lufthansa. Better seats, better food, better service, better lounges at the same fare. Duh!

I root for US Airways all the time because I really like the employees, but I am savvy traveler and will go where I think the better value is. I really wish that was US Airways, but it's not.

Later,
Eye

 

[FlyOnWall]

And that is a problem that I would have no idea how to solve.
Jim, I'm curious, I have heard from the pilots to the FA's, to the ground staff that we pay consistently less than other "major" airlines. Is this true? If so why is our CASM still high? I know that employees gave up a lot in the two BK's. Why would the CASM (ex fuel) remain so high?

CASM is how much it costs to fly a seat one mile. Labor is part of it, but so is the network, operating costs, airport fees, paying all of those contracts to Express carriers. One thing that come to mind are having some of the highest compensated management in the industry (how is that low cost?)

Oftentimes US is the higher fare, particularly in the Northeast. Should they have glassware and IFE on those flights? If US is a no-frills carrier, how are they going to sell a business class fare from FRA to LAX? US advertises itself as a full-service carrier, and considers it's peers to be the major network carriers according to it's own on-time advertising.

 

[marco90821]

"... why are you posting this on an aviation board? Noone here can Help you. You need to stop wasting your time here and Contact US Airways and get some heads rolling...."

How is his experience not relevant to aviation? His comments relate to his experience on US, a commercial aviation company :blink: . The board is meant for one to express opinions/facts, etc. Everyone posting on the board is not asking for help as you put it, but simply expressing an experience or a factoid regarding the company. Should he be posting on the Edmund's automotive boards?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim, I'm curious, I have heard from the pilots to the FA's, to the ground staff that we pay consistently less than other "major" airlines. Is this true? If so why is our CASM still high? I know that employees gave up a lot in the two BK's. Why would the CASM (ex fuel) remain so high?

I can only speak for the pilots and even there only on pay scale since I'm not familiar with the other contractual provisions of the other airlines.

The East pay scales are at or near the bottom for same/equivalent equipment if you exclude the RJ providers and such airlines as Spirit and Allegient. West pay scales are higher. Of course, pay scales are only part of the pay equation - longevity and contractual limits on monthly flying are the others.

The CASM is so high because of potentially 3 major factors, which depending on which airline you're comparing US to. An inefficient operation costs more, and a hub/spoke operation is inherently an inefficient operation. Even between hub and spoke carriers, there are differences in efficiency - the rest have "dehubed" their hub operations to one degree or another, but not US. That means US needs more gates, more people, more equipment to work X flights at PHL than CO does to work the same number of flights at EWR, for example. More gates, equipment, and people cost money, even if the per person cost is less that the other carrier.

Operating a relatively short haul operation in the Northeast. CASM goes up as stage length (the average distance covered by an airline's flights) does down. Shorter state length means the average airplane is sitting on the ground more per day- costing money but producing no revenue. So airlines with a longer stage length have a built in CASM advantage. The Northeast with it's congestion causes more delays, which cost money. Airplanes sitting on taxiways have a cost but produce no ASM's - a CASM of infinity. The more of that an airline does the higher the CASM.

Being a relatively small airline with too many fleet types. CO has 3 basic fleet types - 777, 757/67, and 737 - with the smallest number of planes in any of those fleet types being 20. US has 5 fleet types, with three of those having less than 20 planes (when the 10 E190's have all been transfered). Multiple fleet types cost money - training, maintenance, ground equipment, etc (that's a biggie for WN with only 1 fleett type).

Finally, US has the largest percentage of ASM's flown by Express operaters in the industry (DL used to be the leader but US passed them). Those are high cost ASM's (17.27 cents per ASM), which bring up the average CASM. This is another big advantage for WN. Even AA, which has a higher mainline CASM than US, has an advantage due to their relatively small (for their size) Express operation.

If you are really interested in getting something of a "nuts and bolts" look at cost comparisons (as well as many other comparisons) go to MIT's Airline Data Project website (you can Google it). They have taken the data submitted to the BTS and done the analysis necessary to provide those comparisons. Of special relevance to this discussion is the employee cost and productivity numbers. For example, they show US as having the lowest "cockpit" (pilot) cost per year, but the highest "cockpit" cost per block hour of the legacy carriers (i.e - pay is lowest but systemic inefficiencies cause cost per block hour to be the highest). One note about their site - they only give annual data (2008 is the latest) since that eliminates the ups and downs that would appear in a quarterly analysis because of different schedules for making interest payments, airplane lease payments, heavy maintenance schedules, etc between airlines.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Oh, and not to drag this down into another East vs West swamp, but all the above is why I chuckle at every mention of "all the revenue the East produces". High revenue in the East minus high costs in the East equals 2 bankruptcies three years. All those factors I mentioned in the last post are almost exclusively East factors, and profits - not revenue - is the name of the game. WN hasn't been profitable because of that high east coast revenue - for an airline that enplanes more passengers than any other, their annual revenue is about the same as 1 quarter's revenue for US. It's low costs that have made WN profitable = something US doesn't have and that high East revenue hasn't been very successful at offsetting the high East costs of US lately.

Jim