Chickypoo,
You have obviously been to the twu school of lying.
Wasn't it taught by overspeed and hss?
Every man has his price.
- Thread starter The Dissident
- Start date
Chickypoo,
You have obviously been to the twu school of lying.
Wasn't it taught by overspeed and hss?
If your crystal ball prophecy comes true (not like all your other ones that didn't) you'll have achieved your fondest wish. A decimated Ovhl operation with their reduced AMT headcount which would leave the Line Locals in charge. WOW, we can hardly wait.
AA outsources overhaul on the twu's watch and you blame Bob. This is typical logic for the twu believers. The twu has been *reducing wages for years now ** to save overhaul and there dues. Now AA has had enough of the old whore and is kicking her to the curb. Never heard you blame Bob when MCIE shut down. Who's fault was that? AFW is shuting down. I guess that is Bob's fault also? Who's fault will it be when Tulsa shuts down? Let me guess Bob. If he had that much power he should kick Hortons ass out,take his position and get a raise along with all that money that Horton and the gang will get when we get out of this farce of a bankruptcy.
I was responding to one of Bob’s frequent prophecies. None of which have come true as of this date. His Vote NO campaign was effective. It worked on the initial company offer (2 year T/A with 18 month wage re-opener) , the 2010 offer, and almost worked on the recent T/A. I didn’t and don’t blame Bob for the outsourcing, that’s American managements’ view of how to level the playing field with the other carriers that have gone through bankruptcy before us.
While we gave up a lot in 2003, there was no outsourcing to the extent of the other carriers.
The point I was making was Bob believes (even if he denies it) that Line AMT’s would be better off without the Overhaul AMT’S which he infer’s drag down the Line AMT wages.
I hate to burst your bubble, but we’re going through a bankruptcy, and it’s not business as usual no matter what you or I think.
I don’t intend to get into a pissing contest, but look at what’s happened at the other carriers:
United Airlines
Filed for bankruptcy: Dec. 9, 2002
Length of time in bankruptcy: 38 months
Capacity changes: 20 percent fewer airplanes; trimmed capacity by 8 percent
Job cuts: 30 percent fewer employees, about 58,000
Wage/benefit cuts: Terminated defined-benefit pensions; average pay for pilots, mechanics and ground workers dropped about 35 percent; flight attendants' average pay declined 20 percent
End result: The carrier cut $7 billion in annual expenses. United became the largest airline in the world when it completed its merger with Continental Airlines in 2010.
US Airways
Filed for bankruptcy: Aug. 11, 2002, and again Sept. 12, 2004
Length of time in bankruptcy: seven months the first time, about 12.5 months the second time
Capacity changes: From its first bankruptcy until it emerged from its second, the carrier cut only 5 percent of capacity but shed 25 percent of its fleet to 358 aircraft
Job cuts: 32 percent fewer workers, about 21,000
Wage/benefit cuts: Mechanics and ground crew were hit the hardest, with average pay down 30 percent. Pilots took a 21 percent cut, while flight attendants' average pay remained flat. Pensions were terminated.
End result: The carrier exited bankruptcy the second time when it merged with America West. It is the fifth-largest carrier of domestic passengers.
Delta Air Lines
Filed for bankruptcy: Sept. 14, 2005
Length of time in bankruptcy: 19.5 months
Capacity changes: Shrank fleet by 11 percent to 578 aircraft, reduced domestic capacity by 16 percent
Job cuts: 17 percent fewer employees, about 47,000
Wage/benefit cuts: Terminated pilot pension plan; average pilot pay declined 38 percent; average pay for flight attendants, mechanics and ground workers dropped by 18 to 21 percent
End result: Fended off a hostile takeover bid by US Airways while restructuring in court. But within a year of emerging from bankruptcy, Delta announced it was merging with Northwest Airlines, making it now the second-largest carrier in the world.
Northwest Airlines
Filed for bankruptcy: Sept. 14, 2005
Length of time in bankruptcy: 20.5 months
Capacity changes: Cut total capacity by 6 percent; disposed of 15 percent of its aircraft, leaving 371
Job cuts: 17 percent fewer workers, about 30,000
Wage/benefit cuts: Average pay for pilots, ground crew and flight attendants declined by 8 to 15 percent while mechanics took the biggest hit, 41 percent
End result: The carrier merged with Delta Air Lines about a year after exiting bankruptcy..
My point is we are now facing what the other Bankrupted carrier unions did. Like it or not, neither the Bankruptcy Court or the Judge is our friend and looking out for our interests. Neither is inclined to be sympathetic to our well-being no matter what anyone thinks.
Again, in case you forgot, I don’t blame Bob for the outsourcing, I blame management. I do believe however, that we had opportunities to mitigate the fallout at the beginning had we not been led to believe we could recover what we gave up in 2003, or there was a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow if we only kept saying NO.
I Hope you understand this although I may be be too optimistic given your prior comments.
Take a deep breath and cool off because regardless of our viewpoints, we may disagree but we’re still in this thing together.
- the 1995 SRP program was supported by the Ovhl negotiators as a way of saving Ovhl jobs. It required all laid-off Ovhl AMT’s to be recalled before any SRP was hired, close to 1,000, and if any were displaced down to a SRP position (which was a voluntary choice) because of future job reductions, they carried their License Premium with them.
** the dues issue is an AMFA fabrication and is part of their organizing/raiding bible.
Overspeed
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- Jun 27, 2011
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Bob you know the internal labor rate and the MRO rate and labors being even they are at least 35% cheaper than in-house even with OSMs doing all the AO work (which they are not).
Again Bob, do the math. If AA can out source only 35% of their labor and material labor spend then you can't keep outsourcing at an infinite rate. In fact, when new fleets come on line the total overhaul work will drop as well as line work (Boeing states the 787 requires 50% fewer labor hours than the current 757/767 overall) so if $2B spend drops to $1B (example) then 35% drops from $700M to $350M. Want to bring more work in-house Bob? Then help reduce in-house maintenance spend. That would drive more work in-house. Be competitive and we have nothing to worry about. You sound like you want to defend poor work practices and antiquated work rules? Your problem isn't AA...it's you.
And line maintenance spend is included in the cap up to 15%. In the 3/22 term sheet, the 40% cap on new work plus current outsourcing would have driven even more work outside however. That would have made us just like UA, DL, and US but maybe that is what YOU wanted. Then you could get your geo-pay at the expense of 4,000 to 5,000 jobs. So that's your brand of unionism, line your pockets at the expense of other members. The members that pay for you to negotiate for them to KEEP their jobs.
iluvaa
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- Mar 22, 2007
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Hey dumb ass remember 03 we took most of those cuts right along side them outside if BK
Hopeful
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- Dec 21, 2002
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Some people have very selective memories.
Hopeful
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- Dec 21, 2002
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Yea, we can read. And we can read your childish posts using LARGE text to get your point across.
You know, like a child who wishes to get his way by yelling.
But guess what, OUTSOURCING HAS ARRIVED! And now you will now how the dinosaurs felt leading to extinction.
I'm pleased that you're able to read. I guess understanding though is a little too much to expect. BTW, the outsourcing has arrived, and thanks to you vote NO geniuses it wasn't an improvement over the earlier T/A was it? It's interesting that the APA is now asking the judge to impose the T/A they rejected instead of the term sheet. Their vote NO groupies must be as brilliant as ours.
iluvaa
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- Mar 22, 2007
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Hey douche in the above post you also mentioned wage and benefit cuts and outsource. We did the wage benefit cut, and our head count went down by thousands in the years after. Now in 2012 we give more wage and benefit cuts and job protection and out source increase. Can you stop rubbing the TWU to read and understand. But with spineless wimps like you around there is no wonder we are where we are
In case you missed it
Union: American Airlines shouldn’t be ‘punitive’ if it wins pilot contract case
By TERRY MAXON
Staff Writer
tmaxon@dallasnews.com
Published: 30 August 2012 09:45 PM
The new head of the Allied Pilots Association urged American Airlines Inc. on Thursday not to be “punitive” if a U.S. bankruptcy judge lets the air carrier throw out the current contract between American and the union.
Keith Wilson, appointed three weeks ago as the union’s president, said the company should impose nothing worse than the contract that 61 percent of American’s unionized pilots rejected Aug. 8.
The rejected offer would have reduced pilot costs by $315 million a year, less than the $370 million in cuts contained in an April “term sheet” containing the terms of pay, working conditions and other elements of their jobs.
“There’s a huge difference between the tentative agreement that was rejected and the term sheet, OK?” said Wilson, a New York-based pilot. “The company said they can restructure based on where they were with the tentative agreement. So anything between here and going down to the term sheet is nothing more than punitive.”
In an Aug. 15 ruling, U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane turned down American’s motion to abrogate its pilots’ contract. However, Lane supported American’s arguments on most points and took exception only to the carrier’s proposals on furloughs and code-sharing.
American and APA lawyers square off Tuesday in Lane’s court over American’s revised motion to throw out the pilot contract. The carrier did away with any changes to furloughs and limited its plans for code-sharing, the practice in which rival carriers sell each other’s flights by putting their own name and flight numbers on those flights.
If the judge approves American’s motion, the airline’s actions after that will help determine if management is serious about improving its dealings with the APA, Wilson suggested.
“Here’s an opportunity for management to demonstrate what type of relationship they want to have; what’s their motivation to get a consensual deal with us? Are they going to drive us down just because they’ll have the right to, if the judge allows them to reject the contract?” he said.
“Are they going to drive us down to that term sheet even though they said they only need to go to here to restructure? That’s one of the biggest things we’re going to be dealing with in the next couple of weeks.”
American spokesman Bruce Hicks indicated that the carrier will impose the deeper cuts.
“We maintain that the changes outlined in our term sheet are necessary for our successful restructuring and will help us reach our goal toward emerging as a stronger company,” Hicks said.
“If the court approves the rejection of the contract, we will begin to implement the terms from the term sheet that will enable us to achieve our necessary cost savings and continue moving forward toward a successful restructuring,” he said.
On another matter, the Association of Professional Flight Attendants announced it will distribute stock to flight attendants based on how much income each flight attendant received between Jan. 1, 2009, and Aug. 31, 2012.
The flight attendants, who handily approved their new contract Aug. 19, will receive 3 percent of shares in American’s parent AMR Corp., when AMR, American and other subsidiaries emerge from bankruptcy.
“Each individual flight attendant’s share of the claim will be equal to her/his earnings over this time period divided by the earnings of all eligible flight attendants during the same period,” the union told members in a statement Thursday. “APFA believes that this method of distribution is the fairest and most practical, and is consistent with what other unions have done in bankruptcy.”
Union: American Airlines shouldn’t be ‘punitive’ if it wins pilot contract case
By TERRY MAXON
Staff Writer
tmaxon@dallasnews.com
Published: 30 August 2012 09:45 PM
The new head of the Allied Pilots Association urged American Airlines Inc. on Thursday not to be “punitive” if a U.S. bankruptcy judge lets the air carrier throw out the current contract between American and the union.
Keith Wilson, appointed three weeks ago as the union’s president, said the company should impose nothing worse than the contract that 61 percent of American’s unionized pilots rejected Aug. 8.
The rejected offer would have reduced pilot costs by $315 million a year, less than the $370 million in cuts contained in an April “term sheet” containing the terms of pay, working conditions and other elements of their jobs.
“There’s a huge difference between the tentative agreement that was rejected and the term sheet, OK?” said Wilson, a New York-based pilot. “The company said they can restructure based on where they were with the tentative agreement. So anything between here and going down to the term sheet is nothing more than punitive.”
In an Aug. 15 ruling, U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane turned down American’s motion to abrogate its pilots’ contract. However, Lane supported American’s arguments on most points and took exception only to the carrier’s proposals on furloughs and code-sharing.
American and APA lawyers square off Tuesday in Lane’s court over American’s revised motion to throw out the pilot contract. The carrier did away with any changes to furloughs and limited its plans for code-sharing, the practice in which rival carriers sell each other’s flights by putting their own name and flight numbers on those flights.
If the judge approves American’s motion, the airline’s actions after that will help determine if management is serious about improving its dealings with the APA, Wilson suggested.
“Here’s an opportunity for management to demonstrate what type of relationship they want to have; what’s their motivation to get a consensual deal with us? Are they going to drive us down just because they’ll have the right to, if the judge allows them to reject the contract?” he said.
“Are they going to drive us down to that term sheet even though they said they only need to go to here to restructure? That’s one of the biggest things we’re going to be dealing with in the next couple of weeks.”
American spokesman Bruce Hicks indicated that the carrier will impose the deeper cuts.
“We maintain that the changes outlined in our term sheet are necessary for our successful restructuring and will help us reach our goal toward emerging as a stronger company,” Hicks said.
“If the court approves the rejection of the contract, we will begin to implement the terms from the term sheet that will enable us to achieve our necessary cost savings and continue moving forward toward a successful restructuring,” he said.
On another matter, the Association of Professional Flight Attendants announced it will distribute stock to flight attendants based on how much income each flight attendant received between Jan. 1, 2009, and Aug. 31, 2012.
The flight attendants, who handily approved their new contract Aug. 19, will receive 3 percent of shares in American’s parent AMR Corp., when AMR, American and other subsidiaries emerge from bankruptcy.
“Each individual flight attendant’s share of the claim will be equal to her/his earnings over this time period divided by the earnings of all eligible flight attendants during the same period,” the union told members in a statement Thursday. “APFA believes that this method of distribution is the fairest and most practical, and is consistent with what other unions have done in bankruptcy.”
Are you really as stupid as you sound or is this just an act. If it's an act you're really good!
High Speed Steel
Veteran
- Feb 14, 2004
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