Where is the jetblue MCT press release? 14k mechanics at AA and counting. Sun Country is about 150 total...I will say this...its nice to see AMFA organizing workers who need a union instead of trying to steal everyone else's...On a side note topDawg;
AMFA is adding more members as well as gaining new contracts. The most under the current AMFA National Director, good job there Bret...
For the other two wannabees; What is your union doing for the industry???
All done in early 2022, and there's more...
AMFA
www.amfanational.org
AMFA
AMFA
AMFA
AMFA
Did everyone leave?
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WeAAsles
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Thats a lot of talk from someone's who union has gone from overhauling every engine in their fleet going all the way down to one.
You got any proof Southwest was willing to put the capital into building the facilities, buying the tooling, hiring the staff to start overhauling engines? Or any proof GE was willing to give Southwest a license to do so?
I have a feeling you have no clue what it would take for Southwest to bring in engine overhaul work and frankly I would be shocked if AMFA or any other union could work out a deal with them to do so unless someone at Southwest wakes up and decides they want to get into the MRO business.
not quite. Its a high mountain to climb and IMO AMFA has not shown any interest in doing what it would take for you guys to bring engine work in house.
First thing that would have to happen would be letting Southwest have unlicensed mechanics and other rolls. For example, Delta has three main groups of people in the engine shop. MUEs, ASMs and AMTs (and then the obvious stuff like inspectors, machinist etc.)
MUEs start out at like 14 and hour. They are the ones moving parts from shop to shop and they are also the parts washers.
ASMs do a lot of work in shops like the blade shop, plating etc. Those shops have AMTs as well. Then the engine line themselves I believe have some ASMs.
AMTs do some shop work and most of the engine line and test cell work.
but the "everyone to touch a tool must be a mechanic and have an A&P" mentality that AMFA has wont cut it. Simple fact is, Southwest just couldn't compete cost wise with that.
But as to the contract with GE, they have been a big pain in the ass lately about letting carriers do the work. They have there select few they allow MROs deals but thats it. You can ask Delta. Delta would probably have Maxes or have maxes on order if GE would let them overhaul LEAPs and all the components of the engine. Thats one of the reason they are building up Pratt and Rolls engines.
Southwest might be able to change GE's mind because of how many engines they have and how loyal they have to be to GE though.
The one thing I think AMFA and Southwest have truly f**ked up on over the years is not working together to make Southwest a huge MRO. No frickin way could they not offer competitive costs on big ticket 737 items. They couldn't do much in the airframe world but engines, APUs, landing gear, avionics etc. I don't see how any would be able to compete with them on pure volume (as long as AMFA was smart enough to keep their cost in line.)
Do you even realize that you guys agreed to a contract that allows American to completely shut down your engine shop over the coming years?
Lets look at a little bit of history.
American goes from doing every engine they operate in house, JT8, CFM56, CF6, RB211, Trent 800.
now out of all the engines they operate (V2500, CFM56, GEnX, LEAP, Trent 800, GE90) they work the CFM56 only.
and on top of that, you guys were dumb enough to sign a contract that singles out three engine types, (JT8, CF6, CFM56) that are all dying engines and engines that American is actively retiring. Guess what happens to your engine shop, per your contract, when American stops flying CFM56 engines? Thats right, SWAMT gets to get on this form and point out to you and weAAsles that GE is doing all you engine work on the LEAP, GEnX and GE90. Tulsa loses a metric s**t ton of engine related jobs on top of it.
And how many jobs has your union been able to add because of scope gains?
Oh thats right, they have, even out of bankruptcy, managed to sell away jobs with every contract. Hell your bankruptcy scope was better than your current scope.
AMFA has been the ONLY union, the ONLY one, that has added work since 2000. IBT at United, TWU/IAM at American have both allowed their companies to outsource more and more.
Hell the only reason you are doing CFM56-5B work is because American was nice enough to insource it.
Oh and lets not forget you guys also let them have a sunset date of the PIT maintenance base and IIRC don't have a single avionics shop protected by your contract. I mean, its a good thing aircraft aren't becoming more avionic based. Don't need to work on them, going the way of the hose and buggy am I right?
But yeah, please, go a head, tell the class how badly AMFA has screwed the industry. TWU/IAM/IBT have been some scope protectors!
Oh wait, I know what it is. People like you saw the upcoming A&P shortage and decided that if they go ahead and sign away all their work, it gives American a way to deal with it. Protects you, protects the company and makes sure any new A&Ps get to live the wonder life of working for a MRO. How nice of you to bail airline management out, yet again. 😂😂
Im sorry but let me share this with you again as you may have missed it further back. This is the latest Seniority List update at AA and the Airline is continuing to add more and more numbers.
9329 Aviation Maintenance Group
1080 AMT Crew Chiefs
1809 Facilities/GSE Mechanics
217 Facilities/GSE Crew Chiefs
471 Inspectors
174 Maintenance Control Techs
1782 Material Logistics Specialists
235 MLS Crew Chiefs
405 Planners
62 Tech Doc Specialists
58 Quality Assurance Auditors
87 Maintenance Training Specialists
That grouping alone is 15,708 M&R and growing.
If AMFA added anything at all to any of their Contracts in regards to SCOPE it’s because they practically had nothing at all to begin with. Last years DOL LM2 showed AMFA at a total of 3600 members for all the Airlines they represent. You honestly can’t say with a straight face that that doesn’t completely suck. The TWU/IAM Association has over 15,000 at just ONE ☝️ Airline. Granted it’s the largest Airline in the World but AMFA should have a lot more at SWA alone if they were really any good. (They’re not) They run on skeleton crews and they have almost no “And Related” whatsoever. Or they sold out most of their and related’s over the years?
AMFA is the only Union out there that I can see that’s absolutely making sure those MRO’s get solid business. Not to mention all those and related groups that they just really don’t “want” to represent.
BTW nice to see you pop in here and hope you’re doing well.
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topDawg
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No my not quite part is how the engine contracts work. In theory, Southwest could end that contract tomorrow. GE can't keep Southwest from bringing the work in-house if that is what Southwest/AMFA decide*. Southwest would likely just have to pay to terminate the contract early.
*I saw that to a point. GE could certainly fight Southwest over things like overhaul rights, repair approvals and things of that nature. I don't see GE being stupid enough to do so, considering how large of a customer Southwest is.
So is that that you can't expect reality, don't know what you are talking about or don't know your own contract?
read what I said to you. Your union has given your company the rights to sunset your engine shop (and supports shops that go with it) You union has also given your airline the right to close PIT completely.
On the engine front, considering American lets GE handle all of its next generation engines already (GEnX, GE90, LEAP....ironically enough the literal same type of deal Southwest has with GE you are preaching to AMFA members about)
So today you have 15K in M&R* but you wont, unless American decides to be nice or your union decides to suck less, in the coming years as American drops engine work. (and likely other backshop work not protected by your sorry USair scope.)
*and your M&R numbers aren't comparable. I don't know about Southwest but just a quick example. At Delta, at least ~2,000 of the people on your list aren't a part of TechOps. GSE maintenance is an ACS devision.
but of course your union is well known for trying to include people in M&R that aren't M&R but will vote to keep the joke IAM/TWU on property.
Also, Southwest isn't going to have the numbers of a Delta, American, United etc. Thank that single fleet. I also covered a big reason why WN has lower numbers in my previous post.
And yes, AMFA is the only union in the last 20 years to add work back into its CBA. Your excuse of "well they started from nothing" doesn't matter. They still have added contractually protected work. American and United can't say that as every contract signed has had some kind of scope erosion in it.
And AMFA has added that work back all while the IBT, IAM, TWU continue to set mechanics back as far as scope goes. Frankly I can't wait to see how they blow this mechanics shortage. We should be gaining work back but unions and airlines don't want that.
WeAAsles
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I’m happy that supposedly AMFA was able to add at least a little something back into their contract after negotiating for 7 whole years at SWA. Now sure any Union under the RLA could get stuck having those long drawn out protracted negotiations and thankfully AMFA didn’t win the Guinness World Record for longest session which that prize goes to AMTRAK at 8 years, but man they were close weren’t they. They certainly lost a lot of compounded interest in their bank and retirement accounts though.
BTW I remember how wicked smart you were and would never look to minimize that but then in that regard you of all people know full well that it’s not the Company or any Union that adds people into the rosters for who needs to be counted in a card drive. That falls solely on the NMB to determine. And they’re not in bed with anyone cause I’m sure they couldn’t give a rats ass what Union represents what groups.
The reason I can’t stand AMFA is because they’ve shown a History of trying to throw anyone who’s not an AMT under the bus. They’ll sell out their own Mothers for an extra dime. Go back a ways in this thread and tell me about those cleaners they represent who are still making $15 per hour.
They’re also nothing more than a raider Union. I don’t buy this Grass Roots garbage they try to sell. And during the Pandemic I never once heard AMFA lobbying the Government to help keep the Airline Industry and us workers floating. They’re too minuscule and insignificant for any Politicians to pay any attention to anyway. But at least thank God they were able to ride the coattails of all those Industrial Unions.
WeAAsles
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Here you go Dawg. $16.55. That’s some quality representation that AMFA gives to those who don’t have an A&P license. Even the Regionals are paying their cleaners and bag smashers more that that now.
Just to clarify something about AMFA starting with nothing comment. I will only speak about my airline on this subject. AMFA inherited the teamsters contract in 2003 when we only had 2 heavy lines in Dallas. Since AMFA came on board they were able to get 2 more heavy lines added (4 total) doubling just our heavy maint in Dallas. Also in Dallas they added 2 C-check lines that the teamsters allowed to be outsourced. AMFA also brought back in house the outsourcing maint that the teamsters also allowed to go out of the country to Canada. AMFA has also more than doubled headcount and positions as well as added numerous back shop work by bringing several maint back in house just in Dallas alone. Several other cities have also grown in maint with work brought back in and soon will add even more to Hou, Den, LA, BWI, San Diego, and of course Dallas when all the new hangars are finished. And before those two yahoo's start mouthing off about El Salvador, the teamsters LOUSY contract language allowed SWA to take maint there as they had no teeth within the contract about maint overseas, since SWA was already going to El Salvador with maint. after AMFA inherited the teamsters contract, AMFA proactively admonished and was completely against the idea so they set up meetings and started working right away with SWA in order to get some rules and guidelines set up with caps and max maint allowed instead of the wide open NO restrictions the teamsters were allowing with their language. That's where that LOA came between AMFA and the co on El Salvador. Along with that LOA was very strict headcount, maint lines minimums, positions all thru-out our maint facilities. So they (the yahoo's) will always say that AMFA allowed to it or AMFA agreed to it when in FACT they NEVER did, it was the teamsters language that allowed ALL the overseas maint at SWA, and as stated before, AMFA simply inherited the teamsters non-restrictive outsourcing language period. Just like they are currently doing at United and has been since they lied their way into representing the Mechanic and Related and still to this day has not followed thru with one single promise that they promised to deliver if they were brought in, NOT ONE. Just FYI...
WeAAsles
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AMFA gained representation rights for SWA AMT’s in January of 2003. That’s now over 19 years ago. So that means for over 19 years they’ve been living with the EXCUSE that they were given a lousy contract from the IBT.
So if AMFA is so great and all those Industrial Unions suck so badly why hasn’t the great AMFA been able to make any dramatic improvements to the SCOPE of that crappy contract in the last 19 years? Despite your never ending incoherent and psychotic babbling AMFA DID NOT make any improvements. From what you wrote they only received guarantees from SWA Management to hold your lines.
You always make me chuckle when you mention how 5 people were hired here and 7 people were hired there. Wow that’s a firestorm there buddy.
BTW are you going to be blaming the IBT for the next 20 years too?
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WeAAsles
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If anyone wants to know what AMFA really is, it’s nothing more than a cash cow for the Seeham, Seeham, Meltz and Peterson Law firm. Here’s the fees paid to them for the year 2020 according to the Department of Labor LM2’s.
$652,939
$26,046
——————
$678,985
And AMFA only has a total of 3800 Members. AMFA is nothing more than a scam for a Lawfirm.
WeAAsles
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So I went back a few years on those LM2’s and this is what I found. AMFA makes payments for disputes and job actions to Seeham every year. AMFA seems to have lots and lots of issues against Southwest Airlines?
In 2016 they paid $311,000
In 2017 they paid $369,000
In 2018 they paid $555,000
In 2019 they paid $368,000
And in 2020 they paid $678,985
Too bad more people especially AMFA members don’t put in the effort to look this stuff up and ask questions of their leadership.
Just realized it was never posted on here about the new card drive at AA. As indicated the announcement came at the end of Nov. 2021. With the new carriers and groups bringing in AMFA lately the urgency to get AMFA as their representing entity increases as we go forward.
Decided to start new thread since the old one was closed due to that card drive being done. I do believe this will be the final chance for the AA'ers to get AMFA in at AA, so we shall see how it all turns out at approx the one year mark Nov. 2022.
Good luck to all the members in the Mechanic and Related as you now have the exact number of cards to get from the last ruling by the NMB on which groups are and are not considered within the class and craft. Remember when I said, that the twu as well as the co. will be sorry for saying all those "other" groups were also within the class and craft.
Can't wait to see how this one goes...
National Vice President Announces New Card Drive at American Airlines
November 12, 2021 -- We are excited to announce that a new card drive to replace the so-called “Association” has begun. The outcome of the previous drive was suspicious, to say the least, and your union along with the National Mediation Board (NMB) did everything they could to once again thwart...
www.amfanational.org
topDawg
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Do........do you know how negotiations work?
If the company isn't willing to negotiate, and the government wont do anything meaningful, short of illegal job actions......what do you expect?
and holding the line for 8 years is 100% better for everyone than doing things the way your guys and your union do them, which is even when you have all the leverage in the world, you sign a shitty contract for the sake of a pay bump.
I notice you didn't even address things like you guys being smart enough to give American an end date on overhauling your own engines in house. No comment eh?
you don't think a government entity gives a rats ass about what union represent who? A government entity that two of the three people are ex AFA and ex IBT?
Yeah im sure both of those unions are desperate for AMFA growth. I bet you also think IAM didn't scab when AMFA went on strike at NW?
I covered that in my other post BUT.
if the Southwest cleaners aren't happy, they should change unions. I think you should look into what's going on with their appearance techs (im assuming that is what you are talking about) because its Southwest that is screwing that deal up. The updates are public.
unless of course you agree that a contract extension of 5 years is fair and pay not being based on seniority is the way to go.......
having said that, I posted about AMFA's short sightedness in being so AMT focused. But I hate to break it to you, the TWU was once that way as well. Had you guys allowed more non-licensed mechanics earlier you would probably have more work in-house. Same for United.
So far no union has had the common since to work WITH the company to be a MRO and not just another cost on the balance sheet. That is probably the biggest reason Delta still hasn't gone union. No one at Delta is stupid enough to think losing all the MRO work is a good thing.
What in the hell are you even talking about?
Oh no. AMFA didn't have people like Sara Nelson going on a power trip. Oh darn. I hate that. I mean as a flying passenger and airline employee, Sara 100% represents every thing I want. I really love the idea giving respect my authoriathah FAs the right to ban people based on a mask. Great idea. Totally hate AMFA for not pitching that. (heavy in the sarcasm if anyone is missing it)
I'm aware of what you guys have been able to bring in and I have a lot of respect for it. People like WeAAsles some how expect AMFA to force southwest to do 100% of their maintenance in-house tomorrow. The ironic thing is they are happy to sign crappy contracts, outside of bankruptcy, when they have all the leverage that sets the industry back even more than Southwest has.
In 10-15 years the only airline that looks to be doing engine work in-house will be Delta. American and United are happily let that work go to vendors.
Its a valid excuse. They are starting from basically nothing, while negotiating with a party that has no will, desire, and to be honest, no valid reason to bring work in-house. On top of that you have a government that has point black told unions under the RLA that they will get no self help (airlines are too big to fail) and are actively working against us in bringing work in. The FAA constantly lets the airlines bend the rules on vendors doing work for them, The EPA would love to shut aircraft maintenance down completely and OSHA would do the same.
So go ahead and lay out your grand plan for AMFA to get work back so easy. Then explain why the unions you cheerlead for aren't doing anything to bring work in either.........
literally doubling the amount of work you do in-house isn't dramatic improvement? What the hell is dramatic improvement then?
Or put it another way, go ahead and tell the class what dramatic improvement the TWU/IAM at American and the IBT at United has been able to make?
My guess is you are seeing American hiring people to cover retirement and maybe some limited growth over additional tails in the fleet but have no idea about all the jobs going out the window with your current contract.
Again I will state. American went from overhauling every single engine they operated in house. (I think they were even doing the Roll Royce engines on the American Eagle E45s)
So thats JT8s, CFM56s, RB211s, CF6s, CFM56s, Trent 800s.
Now they are overhauling CFM56s. Not only did you lose engines like the Trent 800 that are still on-wing in your fleet, you also have lost all the replacement engines for the JT8s, RB211s and CF6s that have been retired. More importantly, you guys don't have a single next generation engine coming in AND weren't smart enough to keep a budget based outsourcing formula, noooooo you put frickin end dates on shops. Or you guys seriously expect the CFM56 powered birds to fly forever.
So now your engine shop is no better than Delta's. You get to *hope* your CEO is nice enough to give you work, except you have a CEO that thinks MRO work is stupid and a union that thinks MRO work is stupid.
and if you think GE is going to let you work their new engines without doing MRO work, and cutting them in on it, then you haven't been paying attention to the industry.
how many people has American hired over true growth?
True growth = work brought in house for work out of house.
So don't bring me numbers that cover retirements or fleet growth. Go a head and tell the class just how much work you guys are bringing in.
My guess is you either have no idea, or wont be willing to admit that 5 people here, 7 people there is probably more true growth then anything American has seen in the last........30 years?
TD, we were just told that some movements are coming soon with some management personnel in order to accommodate the up coming additions and added work to the engine shop. Things don't happen fast around here at all, always moves at a snails pace seems like when it comes to work, positions and added headcount to us. SWA has always done additions in smaller sized groups rather than doing it all at once. They like to say, "here start with this (managers and sups) and prove to us you need more than this to keep the new work running on time and efficiently. They never throw too many at it and then remove them or relocate personnel.
Also just saw the Den new positions all go un-bidded from the in house bid first so they will be going to new hires, same with another of our new hangar cities so added hiring there too. We will see some good numbers of new hires coming in in 2022, as promised by our new CEO, which will now break the original 8,000 new hires for 2022 and closer to 10,000. Always good when expanding, growing, adding work, positions and headcounts.
Watching SWA's growth and added work coming in could help with the card drive at AA again. Not saying it's all AMFA's doings at all here, but, it's always great kudos towards the representing entity when the SWA and AMFA are working together to bring in more work, positions and added headcount, and especially opening new (6) hangars in 2022 for new maintenance lines. Den and Hou being are biggest new hangars opening. I ask the two yahoos how many new hangars is AA opening up with added maint lines???
WeAAsles
Veteran
- Oct 20, 2007
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I’m going to brush past everything else you wrote since this was what stood out to me the most anyway. If AMFA ever does have that debate against the TWU/IAM you can request to be their spokesperson and stand at the lectern. I wouldn’t use the seeking point that they were able to secure a small handful of jobs myself though.
9329 Aviation Maintenance Group
1080 AMT Crew Chiefs
1809 Facilities/GSE Mechanics
217 Facilities/GSE Crew Chiefs
471 Inspectors
174 Maintenance Control Techs
1782 Material Logistics Specialists
235 MLS Crew Chiefs
405 Planners
62 Tech Doc Specialists
58 Quality Assurance Auditors
87 Maintenance Training Specialists
That grouping alone is 15,708 M&R and growing.
BTW I do love how you ignored all those payments to the Seeham Law Group for the never ending confrontations against SWA Management. With all that unending animosity it doesn’t sound like a very civilized place to work if you ask me.
topDawg
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- Nov 23, 2010
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Holy hell.
I honestly don't know what to say at this point. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about and I am so over your head it isn't funny. I literally covered this in my post. If you aren't going to read it, don't understand, or have no f'in clue what is actually going on, I can't help you.
Its pretty simple. You are giving up work. You have been giving up work for the last 30 years at least. I understand you clearly don't know what work is in-house/out of house or has been in/out of house. So i will try to put this in the simplest terms possible for you.
It doesn't make a single crap what your M&R number is today. Not a single one. What matters is YOU ARE NOT GROWING. Any "growth" you see is either new people covering for retirements or because American added aircraft to the fleet. But at actual outsourcing (in other words, the number that matters if American have 100 planes or 1 trillion planes) American, the TWU and IAM are in double digit NEGATIVE numbers.
AMFA started at Southwest in ~2003, IIRC.
AMFA has brought in +10% more work over that time.
In the same time period, you guys have let American outsource -20% MORE work.
So in what world is -20% growth? In what world, when literally the only airline in the entire United States, has grown 10% maintenance work preformed in-house bad?
Good lord. I have long wondered how we got here as maintenance, then i see people saying -20% growth rate is somehow good, yet +10% is some how bad................annnnnnd I get it. Its not hard for management to screw over labor, when labor is showing up to a gun fight with a knife.
