Delta loads new DAL flights

[eolesen]

and this is what I think Delta would look to find out. I personally have yet to really figure out how WA is legal as far as only allowing the Texas three (WN/AA/CO) to have flights into Love.

It's pretty simple, actually.

The agreement protects the tenant airlines at the time it was put in place. The number of gates was reduced, and evicting existing tenants would have been an overreach. So a ratio of existing to new was applied.

Had DL been interested enough to hold a lease, they could have done so. They didn't.

And I'm sure that if it were DL holding the gates that UA holds now, none of you would be arguing against the WA...

SCOTUS has stayed out of this as a local issue for 40 years, and I suspect they'll continue to do so. And yes, it is really a local issue. Just as the perimeter rules at LGA and DCA are in place to "protect" larger airports, and the noise abatement controls at LGB and SNA.

Local issues tend not to get a lot of attention in Congress, and probably shouldn't have in this case, either.

 

[WorldTraveler]

and that is precisely the issue... how can a federally funded airport set permanent access rights that eliminate the possibility of other carriers moving in.... the principle of open access is fundamental to US airports and it will be legally tested.
 
The best part is that AA and DL might well join forces to challenge WN and the DOJ rather than face the prospect of permanently be excluded from serving an airport... the only one like it in the US aviation system.
 
yes, this is a federal aviation system issue and will be increasingly more so as the WA falls.  Congress cared little about a regional airport that served Texas and essentially its neighboring states.
 
An airport that serves the entire US is a national issue now. 
 
Slot controls and perimeter restrictions are more equitable than the way DAL is being carved up.
 
There will be challenges.
 
Count on it. 
 
The more people WN ticks off, the more the number of players that will recognize that DL is not just out to protect its own interests but the interests of a far larger percentage of America than just WN and a few powerless LCCs. 

 

[eolesen]

So, you're entirely in favor of the Federal government dictating to the locals how their land, and more importantly, their airspace is to be used?

Sorry, but at the end of the day, the right action is to let the citizens of North Texas determine what happens at DAL.

A bunch of carpetbaggers from Atlanta shouldn't get to decide how much noise gets inflicted on residents of Dallas. They're already pissed about the current levels.

Carpetbaggers from Atlanta also should't get to force more traffic onto the surrounding streets and state highways (not interstates), which are paid for by the residents of Dallas and Texas taxpayers.

 

[WorldTraveler]

then the residents of Texas should not be standing around asking for federal funding for their airports if they choose to determine who can land there....
 
and if you want to make that argument, then GA and MN etc should be free to impose their own restrictions and there are far more states that believe in free trade than TX.
 
Sorry, but the concept of free trade by any company within the US means that states can't block access to a company of any other state.
 
If Texas wants to limit the size of aviation within its state, then they can either do it equally for all carriers or pay for the privilege of operating their own airports and aviation system. 
 
LGA,JFK, EWR, DCA, and SNA etc all have mechanisms for other carriers to access the market.  The DOJ at WN's request wants to permanently rearrange the market in N. Texas to the exclusion of other carriers.
 
There is no precedent for that anywhere else in the US and it will be legally challenged if it develops as it appears that it is.

 

[700UW]

The Wright Amendment is a Federal Law, not a Texas state law.
 
Dont let the facts get in your way.

 

[WorldTraveler]

and you do grasp that federal law can be and has been challenged in federal court in the same way that actions of the executive branch can be  challenged?  that is way the US government system works.   
 
The Wright Amendment was pushed thru in an era where the implications were unknown... throw in the DOJ's ruling which could permanently eliminate the possibility of AA and DL plus other carriers competing at DAL  and there is more than enough basis for a legal challenge.
 
There is no other airport that works the same way DAL is and will be.  That alone should give you a clue of how screwed up it is.
 
BTW, you might also get past the idea that it is a " DL loses, we win"  argument. 
 
AA should have never been forced to allow WN to grow nationwide from DAL while AA can't even serve the airport.  That is a massive restraint of trade that will hurt AA.  The sooner you grasp that AA and DL now BOTH have the same reason to put WN back into a box, the sooner you can understand why this issue will become a lightning rod.
 
AA would rather have DL with DAL service to 4 or 5 cities than WN with service to 20 and AA with none. 

 

[700UW]

And how many years has the WA been in existence and it hasnt been challenged.
 
Its a little late now.
 
Slots at LGA and DCA restrict flights.

 

[eolesen]

The Wright Amendment was pushed thru in an era where the implications were unknown... throw in the DOJ's ruling which could permanently eliminate the possibility of AA and DL plus other carriers competing at DAL  and there is more than enough basis for a legal challenge.

Yep, the law that was changed in 2005 was an era where the implications were unknown...

AA should have never been forced to allow WN to grow nationwide from DAL while AA can't even serve the airport.  That is a massive restraint of trade that will hurt AA.  The sooner you grasp that AA and DL now BOTH have the same reason to put WN back into a box, the sooner you can understand why this issue will become a lightning rod.
 
AA would rather have DL with DAL service to 4 or 5 cities than WN with service to 20 and AA with none.

Really?... Seems to me AA is quite comfortable with the idea of competing from DFW. They could have kept token service at DAL all these years they've had a leasehold, yet saw fit not to.

It also seems to me that AA and WN came to terms with the boxes they were in years ago. Nine years to be exact.

DL's had nine years to act on this, and their real estate people have known for nine years what the terms. They could have worked to change the law.

For nine years.

Yet, they didn't.

For someone who loves to point to statistics and long term strategy, perhaps you can explain why DL chose not to act for the previous decade?

 

[WorldTraveler]

And how many years has the WA been in existence and it hasnt been challenged.
 
Its a little late now.
 
Slots at LGA and DCA restrict flights.

 
and DL and AA both thought they had a future at DAL which the DOJ has taken away.  The WA didn't take that away - the DOJ did.  The DOJ's actions are what will first be challenged but it may well force a reexamination of the WA. 
 
Again, 50% of the capacity in the US may not be able to compete from DAL on a permanent basis.  If you can't grasp why that isn't significant to a lot of consumers, then you probably never will. 
 
The courts can and so can legislators in a whole lot of states who understand that American consumers are harmed by allowing any US airport to be a refuge from protection for a few carriers.
 
Interstate and open transportation demands equal access to all competitors.  The DOJ's actions combined with the WA will  force the issue.
 
It was not an issue before but sure is now.

 

[swamt]

WT, C'mon.  AA will not, I repeat, will not join Delta in any lawsuit or challenges to change anything at LF.  They (AA) has already signed off on the deal and agrees to the DOJ's requirements.  Which were never made by SWA as you have indicated and agreed to by the DOJ, it was all the DOJ's decision from the get go.  Once again are you ever going to let it rest until the final decision is made about the gates?  Or, are you just going to go on and on about it?  Get over it WT, Delta is out of the picture, it is now between SWA and VX for the gates. 
 
As of late, I am hearing SWA has a better chance for the 2 gates now.  Hope it is true and I will try to confirm and report back. Big campaign kicking off to get the gates have started.  Delta should be focusing on moving their flights to DFW and grow like crazy.  If SWA is the winner of the 2 gates, SWA will still hold less than 10% of the N. Tx. market out of the DFW area...

 

[FWAAA]

As of late, I am hearing SWA has a better chance for the 2 gates now.  Hope it is true and I will try to confirm and report back. Big campaign kicking off to get the gates have started.  Delta should be focusing on moving their flights to DFW and grow like crazy.  If SWA is the winner of the 2 gates, SWA will still hold less than 10% of the N. Tx. market out of the DFW area...

Southwest has a far bigger share of the North Texas O&D market than the 10% you claim.    More than half of the passengers who board planes at DFW are connecting there, not beginning or ending their trip there, and thus they are not part of the local market.   As AA is the only airline connecting large numbers of passengers at DFW, it's clear that AA's share of the local market is much smaller than its 85% share of total passengers at DFW.    
 
Who has a large share of the local market if not AA?     Southwest is in second place,  followed by Delta (including its regional partners) in third place, then Spirit and US Airways, and the rest with insigificant shares.      

 

[swamt]

I have no evidence to defend my statement, as I read that it was actually less than 10%. Maybe I should have said N.T. traffic, would that be correct rather than market?  SWA is at aprox 120 (if that) out of LF (no I did not look that number up either.  I believe DFW is well over 6-8 times that amount with AA being the carrier with the crown of most number of flights out of DFW.  If I can find that article again I will post it...

 

[FWAAA]

In round numbers,  DAL attracted about 6 million total O&D passengers last year, and WN carried more than 95% of them.   That's about three million departing and about 3 million arriving.   That's an impressive market share.    In 2013,  WN carried about 7.75 million total passengers at DAL, so it's clear that WN is connecting some passengers over DAL.
 
Over at DFW, total O&D is about 22 million annually, or about 11 million arriving and 11 million departing.   DFW had total passengers (arriving and departing) of almost 52 million, so you can see that more than half are connecting.    AA's share of the O&D (including Eagle and US) was about 14 million and all other airlines combined accounted for the remaining 8 million.
 
So in round numbers, the total metroplex O&D was about 28 million and WN carried roughly 5.7 million of them, or about 20%.

 

[WorldTraveler]

WT, C'mon.  AA will not, I repeat, will not join Delta in any lawsuit or challenges to change anything at LF.  They (AA) has already signed off on the deal and agrees to the DOJ's requirements.  Which were never made by SWA as you have indicated and agreed to by the DOJ, it was all the DOJ's decision from the get go.  Once again are you ever going to let it rest until the final decision is made about the gates?  Or, are you just going to go on and on about it?  Get over it WT, Delta is out of the picture, it is now between SWA and VX for the gates. 
 
As of late, I am hearing SWA has a better chance for the 2 gates now.  Hope it is true and I will try to confirm and report back. Big campaign kicking off to get the gates have started.  Delta should be focusing on moving their flights to DFW and grow like crazy.  If SWA is the winner of the 2 gates, SWA will still hold less than 10% of the N. Tx. market out of the DFW area...

 
 
I still find it more than ironic that you (WN) feel that you should be able to do to other carriers exactly what the WA did to you for so many years.  Does it not even remotely occur to you that the WA in itself was wrong and was eventually overturned because of the inequity of it all and that WN is now trying to create the same barriers to other carriers and advantage for WN that was forced upon WN?
 
Are  you truly unable to see the big picture?
 
yes, AA signed off on the divestiture agreement and they may have a lot less leg to stand on than DL but tell me where in the WA or any of its revisions was it ever said that the exclusion of other carriers would be permanent by virtue of the gate limitations or that any carrier that didn't have gates would never be able to get them?
 
And more significantly, where is the legal basis for the DOJ's idea that they have the right to exclude a class of carriers from DAL (their definition of non-LCC carriers) while providing access to others? 
 
More significantly, where is the mechanism that carriers that do not currently serve DAL from ever being able to do so?  every other US airport has such a mechanism yet DAL is supposed to continue to receive federal funding and yet refuse to comply with the same guidelines.
 
Of course WN is kicking into high gear to fill up every gate at DAL as fast as they can so there is no recourse when a legal judgment comes down saying that DAL does not meet the same standards for access of any other US airport, including those that are slot controlled and have limited gates. 
 
WN might well find itself in the situation that the courts demand that DAL provide equal access to all carriers including converting some gates to common use, even if it means limiting the number of flights WN provides or lose federal funding.
 
Courts might also say that the WA and the 5 way agreement never met the standards for equitable access for all carriers and it should all be thrown out, including allowing WN to serve DFW, and AA and DL to serve DAL, but with the reality that WN will have to give up gates at DAL in order to provide access to new carriers.
 
You might want to laugh and "Come on, WT" but you truly have no idea how big of an issue DAL will become in the eyes of legislators around the country who will be forced to realize the travesty that N. Texas aviation has become and how Texas has completely failed to manage its own airports in the interest of nationwide economic interests.
 
The situation at DAL will not stand. 
 
I will bet you any amount of money that the situation at DAL based on 3 or at most 4 airlines with limited access and WN with 80% of the gates and the exclusion of one or more major airlines will not stand.
 
I absolutely guarantee you it will not stand.

 

[swamt]

First and foremost,  SWA and I are not the ones doing to other carriers as they have done to us--period.  It IS the DOJ that has put ALL the restrictions out there for AA and US to merge NOT SWA or me.  Again, get a clue.  Trust me I do see the big picture.  SWA is simply applying for 2 gates at LF, just like Delta has and VX is in order to provide more flights out of LF, that's it as far as SWA's involvement.  YOU, sir, make it sound like SWA is behind this entire W/A and AA-US merger requirements that are actually driven by the DOJ.  So go ***** at the DOJ, not SWA and certainly not me. 
As far as your questions to me about the DOJ?  Don't know, don't care, go ask them not me, not my job.
WT, you are simply pissed off that Delta is out of the race, this is very obvious.  This is no-ones problem out here, but yours and Delta's.  People are very tired of your tantrums around this LF gate issue, it's getting old and drug out.  I have told you over and over to lay it to rest until the results are reviled by the DOJ.  Then we can all discus why and how whoever gets the gates and why.  PUT IT TO REST for now WT, wait for the results, and then we can all discus what will happen, but I will tell you one thing for sure, Delta will not get the 2 gates at LF.  I have told you this from the very beginning, and now it is start to come to reality and it is just eating at your insides that I was right and you were wrong.    VX is a very viable competitor for the gates now, and at least I am willing to admit the gates may very well go to them and not us, but I still strongly believe SWA has a very good chance.  Delta is out. And it is just killing you, get over it and move on.  Put this shite to rest until the results come out. But nooooo, you will continue to go on and on and on won't you???