Delta loads new DAL flights

[WorldTraveler]

wow... 3 people believe that maybe this whole thing is all about WN not wanting to face competition despite the fact that WN's entire history has been based around finding niches in which they DON'T have to compete against others.
 
Hello.  we do recall that this whole issue got started because WN wanted to have an airport to itself. 
 
And It is not just about WN avoiding DL... DL is the most hyperaggressive competitor in going after anyone.
 
No rational carrier wants to tangle with DL if they can avoid it. 

 

[swamt]

TopDawd,  E.J> owns the other two gates NOT UAL.  UAL leases those gates from E.J. or they Lease them from AA depending on which ones they are using.  There are 20 gates at LF, 16 SWA owns, 2 AA owns and leases to others, 2 E.J. owns and leases as well.  UAL owns "0" gates at LF.  They are leasing from someone and using the gates they use at LF.
 
Wrong again WT.  SWA did not want an airport to itself, and they will not end with an airport to themselves.  The W/A was forced upon them because they chose to stay at LF and not follow all the other airlines over to DFW.  And by staying at LF they restricted themselves to the restrictions of the W/A.
 
One of the reasons SWA wants the two gates is because this is the "only" way SWA can grow in N. Tx.  SWA cannot grow at DFW because they are forced to give up gate for gate between LF and DFW, therefore no growth potential to move to DFW.  VX and Delta can grow all they want at DFW, Southwest cannot...

 

[FWAAA]

One of the reasons SWA wants the two gates is because this is the "only" way SWA can grow in N. Tx.  SWA cannot grow at DFW because they are forced to give up gate for gate between LF and DFW, therefore no growth potential to move to DFW.  VX and Delta can grow all they want at DFW, Southwest cannot...

You're overstating the restrictions in the settlement agreement that terminated the Wright Amendment.   WN can grow as much as it wants in North Texas, as the gate relinquishments are capped at half of the DAL gates (eight of them).   WN could get DFW to build another 30-gate terminal for WN to use at DFW and it would only cost WN eight of its DAL gates.   And if other carriers didn't want the eight gates that WN would have to relinquish, the agreement allows WN to use them on a common-use basis.
 
WN can grow to 1000 daily flights at DFW and still have exclusive use of 8 gates at DAL, good for 80-100 nonstop flights anywhere in the country (as of mid-October, 2014).    WN can grow as big as it wants to in North Texas.   "Oh, but DFW is such an expensive airport at which to operate."   Spare me.   The Gary Kelly Southwest doesn't mind operating at very expensive airports like DCA, LGA, BOS, SFO, DEN, etc.   WN could pay the same expenses at DFW that everybody else pays.  
 
While anything is possible (example:  the DOJ about-face on the AA-US merger), my prediction is that WN has zero chance of being permitted to acquire two more gates (or even one more gate) at an airport where it already has exclusive use of 80% of the gates.   An airport where an illegal agreement (that surely violates the Sherman Act) prohibits the construction of any new gates for quite a few years.    You're posted numerous times about some fantasy result where VX gets one and WN gets the other.   IMO, Zero chance of that.   Delta has a much better chance of getting both gates than WN has of getting one (or two) of the gates.    
 
Now that I've posted that, however, the bizzaro world in which the Obama antitrust enforcers reside will probably result in WN getting the gates.  

 

[WorldTraveler]

look at this, swamt.
 
We're all ganging up on you on this distorted restriction of trade that WN has managed to convince the world that it should be entitled to enjoy - all because WN litigated its way into DAL at the time when everyone was being forced to move out.
 
WN chose the path they are on now... they could have easily moved to DFW and competed with everyone else but they wanted a small airport and that is what they now have.  WN and WN alone is responsible for any inability to grow they now face. 
 
The alternative is to quit hiding and play in the same ball park with the big boys. 
 
Kinda like the way NW was forced to move its hub to NRT and now the Japanese carriers all want the slots at HND to operate longhaul int'l flights.
 
Yes, buddy, there will be lawsuits.... and it's just a matter of how soon and how fast.
 
The best thing about DL getting kicked out of DAL if it happens is that AA and DL might BOTH have reason to decide that enough is enough and push the whole flippin' issue all the way up the rounds of Congress AND the legal system.
 
AA should have never been forced to give up gates at DAL, DAL should have the same type of mechanism to accommodate other carriers as other federal airports have, and WN should not be allowed to expand its presence in N. Texas without significantly giving up gates it presently has.....
 
The best thing about the American governmental system is that turnover happens and the wins that you are enjoying now only embolden others to get a voice that protects more than the interests of one company but of the entire N. Texas market.
 
As much as WN wants to think otherwise, there is no freedom to N. Texas consumers by opening up one airport but locking out two competitors. 

 

[swamt]

So you are now back to saying "there will be lawsuits" not may or could, man you flip flop a lot.  I could care less if Delta files lawsuits or not. 
 
FWAAA,  That is still no growth for the first 8 gates.  SWA never goes into an airport with more than 6 gates to start, and usually it's more like 2 to 4 max at a time.   Therefore the move to DFW would actually be very inefficient.  Also SWA does not want to leave LF at all as the customers really enjoy the very minor commute to DT Dallas. 
As I have stated before, I truly believe the gates are going to VX (this is my guess)  but I also have seen the list of reasons sent to the DOJ by SWA that we should have the gates, as well as the numbers of who would better serve Dallas, employment opportunities, airport as well as the most consumers affected,  plus with SWA's history and relationship with the city, I am still a hold out that we will indeed get the two gates in the end just as you have suggested.  I suggest we all wait until the results are out, maybe Delta will file those lawsuits that have been promised, then we can all discuss why who got what, won't be long guys...

 

[Kev3188]

Yes, buddy, there will be lawsuits.... and it's just a matter of how soon and how fast.

Oh, hello.

 

[blue collar]

Maybe he meant to be logged in as spectator when he typed that?

 

[eolesen]

There's some merit to what FWAAA wrote about WN's ability to grow without restrictions. They'd just have to do so at the airport that the two counties and two cities who owned airports had agreed on as being *the* designated expansion airport for the area.

The limits on the terminal size may appear to violate the Sherman Act, but the Agreement is also an act of Congress.

Doesn't Congress have the ability to set aside one act of Congress under certain conditions within the language of another act?

I'd say yes, provided doing so isn't also a violation of the Constitution, but I'm not a lawyer.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Maybe he meant to be logged in as spectator when he typed that?

 
of course, if anyone agrees with the same thing that WT writes, he has to be an alter ego.... no one could possibly agree with what I write, right?
 

So you are now back to saying "there will be lawsuits" not may or could, man you flip flop a lot.  I could care less if Delta files lawsuits or not. 
 
FWAAA,  That is still no growth for the first 8 gates.  SWA never goes into an airport with more than 6 gates to start, and usually it's more like 2 to 4 max at a time.   Therefore the move to DFW would actually be very inefficient.  Also SWA does not want to leave LF at all as the customers really enjoy the very minor commute to DT Dallas. 
As I have stated before, I truly believe the gates are going to VX (this is my guess)  but I also have seen the list of reasons sent to the DOJ by SWA that we should have the gates, as well as the numbers of who would better serve Dallas, employment opportunities, airport as well as the most consumers affected,  plus with SWA's history and relationship with the city, I am still a hold out that we will indeed get the two gates in the end just as you have suggested.  I suggest we all wait until the results are out, maybe Delta will file those lawsuits that have been promised, then we can all discuss why who got what, won't be long guys...

 
let's step back to square one, one more time.
 
SWA decided SINCE DAY ONE (thanks Nike) that they were going to play contrary to the rules that everyone else had to play by and they fought tooth and nail to fly from an airport that everyone else intended to be closed.
 
Unfortunately, Texas lawyers and planners at the time were too trusting and didn't blow up the runway so WN had an out.
 
WN is in the position it is in precisely because they chose to fly from an airport that was intended to be closed and the community said they wanted smaller, not larger. 
DFW was built for growth in the region and it has done that in spades.
 
at this point, I am happier by the day that the DOJ and WN are working together to screw all of the legacy airlines because at some point, there will be a reaction and it will be strong.
 
You might find one set of friends now but the chances are real high that AA and DL, both who are politically active, will decide they are going to take out WN in one way or the other. 
 
There is no justifiable economic excuse for WN to have access to an airport which other carriers can't access..... none.
 
You enjoy the growth and advantage you have today but it will come to a screeching halt at some point.
 
For you and WN to think otherwise is simply delusional. 

 

[topDawg]

 per the Wright agreement/law they are CO's gates. If something was worked out where they were given to EV I would love to see it. Again, they are United's gates. EV may do the UAX flying for UA, but that doesn't mean they are owned by EV. 

Sounds like WN screwed up by being scared of AA and not moving to DFW. Why is it my problem and why should i pay higher fares because the company is stupid/chicken s**t?

 

[topDawg]

The limits on the terminal size may appear to violate the Sherman Act, but the Agreement is also an act of Congress.

and this is what I think Delta would look to find out. I personally have yet to really figure out how WA is legal as far as only allowing the Texas three (WN/AA/CO) to have flights into Love. 
 
what is really funny to me is Delta was at love long before any of those airlines. (including AA I believe)
Delta's first route was from DAL.
 
 
but none of it matters as long as the .gov is protecting the little babies at Southwest.

 

[topDawg]

Now that I've posted that, however, the bizzaro world in which the Obama antitrust enforcers reside will probably result in WN getting the gates.  

I;m starting to think WN wrote him a big check or something. The way the DOJ went after Delta on the first slot swap was basically everything Southwest wanted. 
 
Of course then the lawsuits came and the DOJ backed down like the normally do.

 

[swamt]

It's coming guys, pls get a clue...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Sounds like WN screwed up by being scared of AA and not moving to DFW. Why is it my problem and why should i pay higher fares because the company is stupid/chicken s**t?

 
and why should N. Texas consumers have to pay for WN's strategic failures?  when enough people get burned by WN's greed, they'll bite back.
 

and this is what I think Delta would look to find out. I personally have yet to really figure out how WA is legal as far as only allowing the Texas three (WN/AA/CO) to have flights into Love. 
 
what is really funny to me is Delta was at love long before any of those airlines. (including AA I believe)
Delta's first route was from DAL.
 
 
but none of it matters as long as the .gov is protecting the little babies at Southwest. 

 
you can only build walls so high. 
 

I;m starting to think WN wrote him a big check or something. The way the DOJ went after Delta on the first slot swap was basically everything Southwest wanted. 
 
Of course then the lawsuits came and the DOJ backed down like the normally do. 

 
of course they sucked up.  no one else has bothered to file the lawsuit yet but they will come. 
 

It's coming guys, pls get a clue...

the real competition that WN has tried to avoid?
 
the one in which DL has been very capable of winning in and which US even used to their advantage at PHL?
 
bring it on.

 

[swamt]

SW will never be scared of Delta WT and you know this. 
How can SW bring it on for you, Delta may no longer be at LF to see.
What I was referring to is the decision about the LF gates are coming, and let's give it a rest until it is revealed.  I have suggested this before but you just want to go on and on and on...