Delta Air Lines to Build Heavy Maintenance Facility in Queretaro, Mexico

[Kev3188]

I have yet to see anyone on this thread that expects to be "given" anything.

Dismissing the narrative you wish to promote =/= failure to "grasp" it.

Nice touch with the code words, though... You should come back and work in the company's HR and/or PR depts.

 

[wings396]

He is certainly trying like Hell, if he isn't already on a PR stunt for DL.

 

[WorldTraveler]

No Kevin,
you seem to be the one that is unable to grasp the concept that being provided an opportunity isn't a handout....
but you have struggled w/ the whole concept that DL is a business and employees have to produce in order to keep their job... even if that's not the way the union worked.
The irony is that I know full well you have no problem meeting the requirements that DL establishes but yet you somehow have this idea that DL should protect the jobs of every person who can't cut the mustard.
Not sure what narrative you seem to think I am promoting but I have been pretty clear that DL protects the job categories of employees better than any other legacy carrier, but they don't cover for people who can't or won't do the job.
If the union tries w/ little success to protect categories of jobs, DL does a far better job of protecting categories but focuses its attention on weeding out those that can't meet the standards but who might have been able to keep their job via the help of a union at other airlines.
The irony is that far fewer people wash out at DL than get laid off at other airlines - and DL runs a far better operation because of its focus on individuals than the labor-mgmt war that continually simmers and sometimes breaks out into full-fledged war.

We could go on and on but DL has established the way it is going to business and they sure are not changing now.

 

[topDawg]

who ever said that DL was some benevolent figure?
you haven't said it word for word.......
I have always said that YOU are part of a labor market that allows you to provide services in return for a paycheck.
DL doesn't hand out money to people who can't produce for them.
yeah....they do. lol
Dawg doesn't seem to be able to grasp the concept that as a licensed skilled mechanic, assuming he actually is, then he should be more than a one trick pony who can only rip out cabins and put them back together.
boy...you can't read can you. I have an A&P and a FCC. So yeah...i can pretty much do anything at Delta...or any airline...or any General aircraft company....I want. (and I think I may get an IA at some point....just for s**ts and giggles) I also have a double BA in business management and accounting. (and thats from Terry College of Business at THE University or Georgia) So yeah... I can pretty much do anything. I enjoy airframe work. Like i said. I can go to the engine shop, a back shop, the test cell.....and I can also go home and burn my face off. I don't like doing things I don't enjoy.
Engines are the most valuable part of what DL does, but it is far from the sum total. But even engines are distinctly different from fixing coffee makers.
sigh....you type stuff then change your mind. Coffee makers are components....you said Engines and COMPONENTS. ie coffee makers.
AF could care less about where DL fixes its planes... because maintenance is not part of the joint operations between DL and AF/KL/AZ. Passenger service and sales are part of the JV and on those concepts DL shares functions and reciprocally outsources and insources.
so your bring up useless crap again...? cool.
AM does the same thing w/ DL... but you don't want to admit that there is a TWO-WAY flow of revenue between DL and AM because if you admitted it, you would have nothing to complain about and you would have to admit that DL really does protect the jobs of its employees better than other US network airlines.
yeah Delta do AM engine overhauls. I have said this before....but I'll trade. Full HMVs for the the 70ish CFM56s Delta does. Lets see.... 700+ aircraft HMVs or 700 engines...yeah. I can love with that.
Hey Dawg,
since you are so focused on jobs, how about you come up w/ totals for the number of employees that work in Tech Ops/maintenance at each of the US airlines as of Jan when AA's cuts will have taken place - and let me know how well DL stacks up.
youll be waiting forever. 1) I don't even know where to find such a thing. 2) I have a life and don't feel like looking 3) it doesn't matter. Delta could 50000000000000000000000000 AMTs....If they still send Delta work to Mexico(or anywhere) then it isn't enough. You clearly miss the point.
I'll be awating your response.

 

[topDawg]

"provide" does not mean one is receiving a gift...

Every child provided an opportunity to gain an education in public schools in the US... but how one uses the opportunity is of their own doing - and no one is gifted with an education. You either gain it on your own or lose the opportunity.

In the same way, DL provides its employees w/ an opportunity to work... but it is not a gift and requires responsibilities on each side.
really? Let me see...they laid off how many in Dallas and Tampa? want to explain how that is given someone the opportunity to work?
It is only those who expect they should be given something struggle with the concept that DL, like any decent company, provides a paycheck in return for services... most people have no trouble grasping the concept.

 

[topDawg]

No Kevin,
you seem to be the one that is unable to grasp the concept that being provided an opportunity isn't a handout....
but you have struggled w/ the whole concept that DL is a business and employees have to produce in order to keep their job... even if that's not the way the union worked.
The irony is that I know full well you have no problem meeting the requirements that DL establishes but yet you somehow have this idea that DL should protect the jobs of every person who can't cut the mustard.
Not sure what narrative you seem to think I am promoting but I have been pretty clear that DL protects the job categories of employees better than any other legacy carrier, but they don't cover for people who can't or won't do the job.
If the union tries w/ little success to protect categories of jobs, DL does a far better job of protecting categories but focuses its attention on weeding out those that can't meet the standards but who might have been able to keep their job via the help of a union at other airlines.
The irony is that far fewer people wash out at DL than get laid off at other airlines - and DL runs a far better operation because of its focus on individuals than the labor-mgmt war that continually simmers and sometimes breaks out into full-fledged war.
hahaha I'm starting to think you know nothing about Delta man. Short of fighting, drugs and stealing....its frickin impossible to get into real trouble at Delta. Its probably the biggest reason why they keep unions out. Hell. I have three or four guys in my bay that stand around all day....thats it. They are worthless. Will they get fired? nope. Hell they will likely end up in management
We could go on and on but DL has established the way it is going to business and they sure are not changing now.

 

[blue collar]

Yes, he clearly does miss the point.

 

[Kev3188]

No Kevin,
you seem to be the one that is unable to grasp the concept that being provided an opportunity isn't a handout....
but you have struggled w/ the whole concept that DL is a business and employees have to produce in order to keep their job... even if that's not the way the union worked.
The irony is that I know full well you have no problem meeting the requirements that DL establishes but yet you somehow have this idea that DL should protect the jobs of every person who can't cut the mustard.
Not sure what narrative you seem to think I am promoting but I have been pretty clear that DL protects the job categories of employees better than any other legacy carrier, but they don't cover for people who can't or won't do the job.
If the union tries w/ little success to protect categories of jobs, DL does a far better job of protecting categories but focuses its attention on weeding out those that can't meet the standards but who might have been able to keep their job via the help of a union at other airlines.
The irony is that far fewer people wash out at DL than get laid off at other airlines - and DL runs a far better operation because of its focus on individuals than the labor-mgmt war that continually simmers and sometimes breaks out into full-fledged war.

We could go on and on but DL has established the way it is going to business and they sure are not changing now.

Now you're just reaching. Find an example anywhere that I've endorsed carrying dead weight in a workforce. Any post'll do. Good luck; you're gonna need it.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Didn't say you personally did... but the DL model produces far greater productivity and far better protects categories of jobs that other US categories that DL has put in the crosshairs for elimination.
See, as an idealist, you want the best of everything... commendable but that isn't the way life works - or at least you haven't been able to take the model you want and make it work in real life... thus we have thousands of maintenance personnel in the US industry still being laid off while DL is insourcing work from other carriers....

yeah, coffeemakers are components but leaving out jet engines and pretending DL doesn't receive jet engine work for the airframe work it outsources is what we would call selective presentation of the facts.....

So would be ignoring the fact that DL's net outsourcing is about 15% after you factor in the revenue they bring in on insourcing. No other carrier comes close to a number that low..

I knew you were smart..... Some of the best people I hired were Terry grads. You just need to recognize that you aren't going to get what you want... Kev won't either. It is precisely because the two of you are intelligent human beings that you can adapt and win in situations that you might not want that allow you and DL to stay employed when other airlines would simply lay you off because your job is sent overseas.

Where are those numbers on maintenance jobs at US carriers, BTW?

 

[Kev3188]

Yes, he clearly does miss the point.

Our self-nominated "arbiter of truth" spares no word count when it comes to trying to promote his narrative. The meme du jour is now how many of us on here "fail to grasp" that DL's HR model is successful. What gets left out is that his statements are an opinion, and don't always comport with reality. The model he deems as having failed -the one that involves organized labor- is one that involves such inconveniences as: consistent application of policies & procedures, equal treatment of employees across the board, and performance evaluations based on objective criteria, not subjective criteria. DL isn't saddled with having to adhere to such things.



We get lots of yards-long posts that take many turns, but don't really say much. Occasionally his true colors shine through, and we get a "gem" (to use his term) like post 243. At the end of the day, the story he wants to continue to tell is the simple "unions bad" stereotype that we can get anywhere, and with a lot less bandwidth consumed.

 

[WorldTraveler]

No, Kev, it is unions "unsuccessful" at protecting jobs and increasing pay for its employees.

Everything else is just window dressing that doesn't change the truth.

2 short sentences....about 25 words

oh, and it is precisely because we can measure jobs less, productivity, and salaries that the conversation is NOT subjective, as much as you would like to reduce it to subjectivity.

another 25 or so

how many did you write.

 

[Kev3188]

Last night's missive from you shows that all of those questions are just roundabout ways (window dressing?) for you to try and drive your "unions bad, DL good" narrative home.

Ask all you want, and people will answer all they want- and already have, FFS- but at the end of the day, it's not going to change your mind. To admit that you may not be as "dead on" as you'd like to think you are is not something that I'm sure you have the capacity for.

 

[WorldTraveler]

what will change my mind is numbers, Kev. Numbers that show your point.

You can talk about consistent practice etc all you want but all 99% of people want first is a job and a salary that is as good or better than their peers. Whatever inconsistency in practice is meaningfless if the other two things aren't met.

The fact that tens of thousands of DL workers have consistently chosen to remain w/o unions - or ditch the ones they had - says volumes about the "real people's" opinions.

Once again, when one of the major DL workgroups gains unionization, let me know.

 

[Kev3188]

what will change my mind is numbers, Kev. Numbers that show your point.

This would imply that I'm interested in changing it. I'm not. Numbers on a spreadsheet don't tell the story of how a company treats it's employees internally. I've said it 100x already, but apparently you're still blithely ignoring it. Once more: IMO, the main drivers for representation at DL WILL NOT BE ECONOMIC.

You can talk about consistent practice etc all you want but all 99% of people want first is a job and a salary that is as good or better than their peers. Whatever inconsistency in practice is meaningfless if the other two things aren't met.

No. Neither of those matter to the person being treated unfairly.

The fact that tens of thousands of DL workers have consistently chosen to remain w/o unions - or ditch the ones they had - says volumes about the "real people's" opinions.

Another repeat: The company is doing far more to drive card signing than an labor activist could ever hope for. Sad, really.

Once again, when one of the major DL workgroups gains unionization, let me know.

Indemnifying terms are fun, aren't they?

Pilots aren't "major?"

 

[WorldTraveler]

AND I'll say it one more time.... apparently other DL employees don't seem to feel slighted like you are.... or if they are, they don't seem to believe that a union could do anything about it.

And your colleagues - and probably you too - are running a darn good airline and will receive a healthy profit sharing reward for doing so....if they didn't believe in the system they have, they wouldn't be delivering for the benefit of the company but more importantly their own pocketbook.

Money is a powerful motivator.

Apparently it is your perception that is out of touch w/ the views of the majority.
Not sure what you expected at DL, but it isn't out of line w/ what other people expected or else there would be thousands more cards filed and we would be seeing some elections by now... but we aren't.

I've never said DL was perfect or is without fault... but in an industry where layoffs and paycuts are the norm and many airline employees have seen little to no wage growth for years after BK, DL's model is distinctly different than the rest of the industry.

As the fruits of key strategic initiatives like the NYC expansion, refleeting, and the refinery bear fruit, DL employees will be in an even better shape than their peers - and the money from those initiatives will fuel DL's growth for years to come, to the benefit of DL employees.

Very few DL employees will trade what they have and will have for something w/ far greater risks.

Most of us realize that the pilots have been unionized at DL for decades so the conversation turns to ALL of the other groups since pilots can't GAIN unionization if they already have it.... focus instead on the 40K or so other employees in Tech Ops, ACS, In-Flight, Res.... all those groups that have passed on unions.

Perhaps if you focused your attention of fixing the union-mgmt model instead of arguing on chat forums about how great it is when the evidence is obvious that it isn't sought after because it hasn't worked as well as you think it has, perhaps, perhaps, Kev, the world as you would like to see it might actually become reality. Now it is just a dream in the minds of a few people like you.

You're a smart guy, Kev. Go for it!