Delta Air Lines to Build Heavy Maintenance Facility in Queretaro, Mexico

[topDawg]

Didn't say you personally did... but the DL model produces far greater productivity and far better protects categories of jobs that other US categories that DL has put in the crosshairs for elimination.
See, as an idealist, you want the best of everything... commendable but that isn't the way life works - or at least you haven't been able to take the model you want and make it work in real life... thus we have thousands of maintenance personnel in the US industry still being laid off while DL is insourcing work from other carriers....
No I do expect at least the same as my peers. Most of the carriers get better benefits and do more work. AA will still....after BK...has a better benefit package and more heavy work done in house. Sad.

yeah, coffeemakers are components but leaving out jet engines and pretending DL doesn't receive jet engine work for the airframe work it outsources is what we would call selective presentation of the facts.....
again. I'll take the 700+ HMVs and AeroMexico can have its CFM56 work back. I'll make that trade.
So would be ignoring the fact that DL's net outsourcing is about 15% after you factor in the revenue they bring in on insourcing. No other carrier comes close to a number that low..
I don't do any of this fake crap you do. I don't care about the 3rd party work....quit trying to make it count. It doesn't.

I knew you were smart..... Some of the best people I hired were Terry grads. You just need to recognize that you aren't going to get what you want... Kev won't either. so again...shut up or leave. It is precisely because the two of you are intelligent human beings that you can adapt and win in situations that you might not want that allow you and DL to stay employed when other airlines would simply lay you off because your job is sent overseas. no they will lay me off(ok no they wont... I'll go to the line.....but if it was 10 years ago....) they would drop me like a bug. I can't ever recall Delta laying off frontline with out lower level management going to.

Where are those numbers on maintenance jobs at US carriers, BTW?I'm confused....what part didn't you understand? it DOES NOT matter. As long as Delta sends out work they have to few employees. It wouldn't matter if we did every other airlines MX in the world.....Delta work should be done by Delta people period.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

Kevin...<snip>... you somehow have this idea that DL should protect the jobs of every person who can't cut the mustard.<snip>

Just reading over this thread after being away for a while and ran across this gem.

Wow.

What happened? Did delta have a down day? Maybe you should seek assistance. I am quite sure delta has the finest EAP of any global airline...just ask the guy in the mirror.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Dawg,
you fail to see the benefits of insourcing because you are focused on what is lost. Carry on with your message but most other rational people can see the benefits of DL's strategy of focusing on one kind of work while not doing others.

We'll check back in a few months but I can say w/ certainty that no other US airline will do as much work inhouse as DL will do esp. when you factor in the insourced work.

The world is about tradeoffs... you apparently didn't learn that lesson while the rest of your coworkers understand it well.

Glenn,
my comment was directed to the observations that Kevin has continually made that people are being walked out... in DL's system, people can be fired if they don't produce... it takes a whole lot for that to happen, but it is possible. The concept that someone can be fired for lack of performance doesn't fit w/ the traditional union model. Doesn't mean that everyone that stays on the job does everything they should but it does mean that there is a point at which DL will terminate employees that doesn't occur at more heavily unionized airlines.

 

[Kev3188]

Just reading over this thread after being away for a while and ran across this gem.

Wow.

What happened? Did delta have a down day? Maybe you should seek assistance. I am quite sure delta has the finest EAP of any global airline...just ask the guy in the mirror.

GQ--

It's what happens when people refuse to buy into the narrative...

The DL acolytes prefer to pretend that things like people being dismissed w/o cause never occur, but they do. They also prefer to think that the Widget doesn't have progress to make with how it deals with it's employees. It does.

They also don't like when people point out such disparities, as it forces them to rethink their own belief systems, and runs counter to their tribal identity. They'll go to whatever lengths necessary in order to rationalize it in their minds.

So look for further spin, ad hominem attacks, othering, and attempts at discrediting those working for change to follow in short order...


"Discontent is the first necessity of progress."

Thomas Edison--

 

[WorldTraveler]

No, Kevin, I have asked MULTIPLE times - can't even count how many - for examples of people who you say were dismissed w/o cause and haven't seen any.... because neither you or I have access to those people's P files. They can tell you all they want that they are interested but I know full well that people aren't just walked out the door w/o cause. They were counseled about a specific issue and given the opportunity to correct it... then before that employee is dismissed, the request was sent to ATL for someone to approve. You've spoken about the bureaucracy about getting things done because they had to go thru ATL.. and now you want to believe that something far more serious such as dismissing an employee is done w/o consulting ATL.

I am happy to admit that DL isn't perfect and have never said it was..... it is you and others who have tried to frame my statements as an undying, blind affection for DL that cannot see the reality of what DL really is.

What I have REPEATEDLY said is that DL's system of managing its business and its employees has yielded far better overall job protection for classes of employees while requiring individual employees to perform or be laid off.
Add in that DL employees have seen wage progression post BK while other airline employees have not and its a no-brainer to realize that the traditional union-mgmt airline model doesn't work while DL's does.

that is what I have said... any attempts to reframe the message anywhere else are feeble attempts to deflect from the real message.

BTW, I have encouraged you for years to work for progress.... and make the system better. I'd be happy to see a list of what you have done and have in progress. All I have heard is efforts for card drives to replicate the same broken model that has left many airline employees looking for solutions that never arrive.

I would GLADLY celebrate your accomplishments IF you could improve the DL model while also advancing the historical labor-mgmt model.
Darn straight I would!

 

[Airlinelifer]

No, Kevin, I have asked MULTIPLE times - can't even count how many - for examples of people who you say were dismissed w/o cause and haven't seen any.... because neither you or I have access to those people's P files. They can tell you all they want that they are interested but I know full well that people aren't just walked out the door w/o cause. They were counseled about a specific issue and given the opportunity to correct it... then before that employee is dismissed, the request was sent to ATL for someone to approve. You've spoken about the bureaucracy about getting things done because they had to go thru ATL.. and now you want to believe that something far more serious such as dismissing an employee is done w/o consulting ATL.

I am happy to admit that DL isn't perfect and have never said it was..... it is you and others who have tried to frame my statements as an undying, blind affection for DL that cannot see the reality of what DL really is.

What I have REPEATEDLY said is that DL's system of managing its business and its employees has yielded far better overall job protection for classes of employees while requiring individual employees to perform or be laid off.
Add in that DL employees have seen wage progression post BK while other airline employees have not and its a no-brainer to realize that the traditional union-mgmt airline model doesn't work while DL's does.

that is what I have said... any attempts to reframe the message anywhere else are feeble attempts to deflect from the real message.

BTW, I have encouraged you for years to work for progress.... and make the system better. I'd be happy to see a list of what you have done and have in progress. All I have heard is efforts for card drives to replicate the same broken model that has left many airline employees looking for solutions that never arrive.

I would GLADLY celebrate your accomplishments IF you could improve the DL model while also advancing the historical labor-mgmt model.
Darn straight I would!

Like 7.5 and BK at D E L T A didn't decimate the number of rampers at D E L T A? DAL only brought 15 stations manned with DL rampers to the merger, are you going to tell me that it isn't a broken model?

How many "new" stations has DAL opened for DEPT 120 (ramp) that were not former NWA stations already staffed with NWA rampers?

AND.......how many more stations could and should be staffed with DAL rampers, knowing that their co-workers in Dept 125 are handling the passenger service side without a worry in the world about having their jobs contracted out.

AND.......after the card drive is successful (or not), whats going to keep DAL from going back to 15 stations with Dept 120 staffing the ramp?

 

[WorldTraveler]

Correct... DL did not have a locked arrangement between above wing and below wing customer service as the NW/IAM CBA required.

But DL has respected and retained all of the stations that were mainline staffed. DL has brought in alot of DCI work that was done by the DCI carriers in several hubs. That is the best of DL AND NW.

 

[Kev3188]

As fas as ACS goes Department 125 (ticket/gate agents) has positions in all the stations D E L T A M/L has flights, but up until the merger with NWA, D E L T A only had 14 or 15 stations with Dept 120 (ramp agents).

Look for a return to that number in the next 3-5 years...

 

[Kev3188]

Like 7.5 and BK at D E L T A didn't decimate the number of rampers at D E L T A? DAL only brought 15 stations manned with DL rampers to the merger, are you going to tell me that it isn't a broken model?

How many "new" stations has DAL opened for DEPT 120 (ramp) that were not former NWA stations already staffed with NWA rampers?

AND.......how many more stations could and should be staffed with DAL rampers, knowing that their co-workers in Dept 125 are handling the passenger service side without a worry in the world about having their jobs contracted out.

AND.......after the card drive is successful (or not), whats going to keep DAL from going back to 15 stations with Dept 120 staffing the ramp?

+1000 to all of that.

...All inconvenient truths that run counter to the narrative...

 

[topDawg]

Dawg,
you fail to see the benefits of insourcing because you are focused on what is lost. Carry on with your message but most other rational people can see the benefits of DL's strategy of focusing on one kind of work while not doing others.
no i understand it completely. What you don't understand is I get piss tested. I have back ground checks done. I have to deal with the FAA if something my name is on is screwed up. Those people in China DON'T. Thats what you don't understand. How would you feel if you walked into a hangar and someone was smoking pot or doing coke and then finishing an inspection during HMV? Is it happening? no idea....but the scary part is....Delta doesn't care and the FAA doesn't know/care. Your on drugs if you think this is a good thing.
We'll check back in a few months but I can say w/ certainty that no other US airline will do as much work inhouse as DL will do esp. when you factor in the insourced work.
then you better not ever check in. MRO work will never count as Delta work as much as you want it to.
The world is about tradeoffs... you apparently didn't learn that lesson while the rest of your coworkers understand it well.
no my coworkers pissed on many heads to save there own. Go ask a DFW or TPA person how much they love Delta. Something tells me you will see big changes from the typical engine shop guy.
Glenn,
my comment was directed to the observations that Kevin has continually made that people are being walked out... in DL's system, people can be fired if they don't produce... it takes a whole lot for that to happen, but it is possible. The concept that someone can be fired for lack of performance doesn't fit w/ the traditional union model. Doesn't mean that everyone that stays on the job does everything they should but it does mean that there is a point at which DL will terminate employees that doesn't occur at more heavily unionized airlines.

Oh and you clearly don't know what your talking about with the last part. If they don;t fallow the contract they can be fired. period. the problem people like you have is you want them to go above and beyond the contract......yet the company can just fallow the contract and your just happy as can be.

part
of
the
problem.

 

[topDawg]

Correct... DL did not have a locked arrangement between above wing and below wing customer service as the NW/IAM CBA required.

But DL has respected and retained all of the stations that were mainline staffed. DL has brought in alot of DCI work that was done by the DCI carriers in several hubs. That is the best of DL AND NW.

what Northwest hubs have seen DCI go mainline?
What DAL-S station has gone to mainline(from DCI) post merger (that wasn't due to cuts....ie CVG)?
How many NW full time station now see a ass ton of RRs? how many large stations at Delta(20-30 flights) are DGS?
How many unionized carriers have a RR program?
how many unionized carriers have its own outsourcing company as a subsidiary?
how many unionized carriers have/had TWO outsourcing companies as subsidiaries?
how many unionized carriers are building a hangar in Mexico?

again
part
of
the
problem.

 

[topDawg]

Look for a return to that number in the next 3-5 years...

and then look for WT to tell you how fing amazing DGS is and how you need to shut up and be happy while you live under the overpass or make half of your income working for DGS......still living under said overpass.

 

[topDawg]

No, Kevin, I have asked MULTIPLE times - can't even count how many - for examples of people who you say were dismissed w/o cause and haven't seen any.... because neither you or I have access to those people's P files. They can tell you all they want that they are interested but I know full well that people aren't just walked out the door w/o cause. They were counseled about a specific issue and given the opportunity to correct it... then before that employee is dismissed, the request was sent to ATL for someone to approve. You've spoken about the bureaucracy about getting things done because they had to go thru ATL.. and now you want to believe that something far more serious such as dismissing an employee is done w/o consulting ATL.

I am happy to admit that DL isn't perfect and have never said it was..... it is you and others who have tried to frame my statements as an undying, blind affection for DL that cannot see the reality of what DL really is.

What I have REPEATEDLY said is that DL's system of managing its business and its employees has yielded far better overall job protection for classes of employees while requiring individual employees to perform or be laid off.
Add in that DL employees have seen wage progression post BK while other airline employees have not and its a no-brainer to realize that the traditional union-mgmt airline model doesn't work while DL's does.

that is what I have said... any attempts to reframe the message anywhere else are feeble attempts to deflect from the real message.

BTW, I have encouraged you for years to work for progress.... and make the system better. I'd be happy to see a list of what you have done and have in progress. All I have heard is efforts for card drives to replicate the same broken model that has left many airline employees looking for solutions that never arrive.

I would GLADLY celebrate your accomplishments IF you could improve the DL model while also advancing the historical labor-mgmt model.
Darn straight I would!

the problem is you keep saying unions don't work.....when have they failed when not under BK? Yeah your a big talker because a judge told the unions to shut up and bind over....but when that didnt happen. During all those years before BK....your trying to tell me labor wasn't doing well? thought so

 

[WorldTraveler]

it is precisely because they HAVE failed in BK that they don't work.... BK HAS defined the US airline industry for the past 10 years and given the cuts that AA currently is making, it will define how the rest of the industry has to work for years to come. Most of AA's unionized employees have agreed to contracts that will lock them into their BK wages for 6 years....do you think there is any incentive for UA or US or even DL or WN to increase pay against that backdrop? The only difference is that DL and WN WANT labor peace because they have demonstrated their business model works best w/ labor peace instead of the discord and fighting that has defined labor relations for the rest of the legacies for most of their history.

7.5 was almost 20 years ago... DL aggressively moved to change the way its airport operations worked and cost a lot of labor peace.... but a large number of people who were affected by 7.5 are no longer even w/ DL and the ones that are still there clearly are not affected by that event or the unions would have won the representation elections. I'm kinda glad that DL was forced to have votes for both above wing and below wing because it showed that even if the vote is restricted to rampers, there wasn't enough people who feel threatend for their jobs to believe a union could make a difference.

Go back and look at DL employee compensation pre-BK compared to their peers and you will see (if you choose to admit the truth) that DL employees were better compensated even then.
And if BK is the new reality that unions have to face and overcome, the verdict is still how well they do in winning for their employees under that scenario.

The simple fact is that DL employees recognize that they have done better than their peers at other airlines, BK or not.. and have not chosen to vote in new union representation.... on multiple occassions. YOUR PEERS have decided unions don't deliver anything they dont' already have, not me.

DL HAS reduced the number of jobs lost due to economic forces that have sent far more employees to the street at other airlines - and they have done it for both unionized employees and non-union FAs and ground employees.

I'm still waiting for that list of maintenance employees at other airlines compared to DL.... and while you're at it you can add on the number of DL employees that have been hired IN ANY capacity vs. at other airlines.... where, in reality, most of DL's legacy peers still have thousands of employees still on furlough.

I'd like to see DL growing even more and keeping jobs for DL employees AND DCI employees. But DL has managed capacity better than its peers and is producing profits far larger. Earnings will start in a few days.... we can talk about who is running a superior business model then.... but I can tell you that DL will be far out front w/ respect to the profits it generates, the profit sharing it provides its employees, and the job security those employees have as a result of DL's business decisions.

Of course the "narratives" of "DL employees are so disadvantaged and need the help of unions to keep up with their peers" doesn't fit the reality that DL employees endured smaller cuts in BK, have regained more salary and benefits since BK, and continue to benefit from more growth at DL and via outsourcing than at other airlines, but that IS the reality... as much as some people fight to keep the true reality from being known.

 

[Kev3188]

and then look for WT to tell you how fing amazing DGS is and how you need to shut up and be happy while you live under the overpass or make half of your income working for DGS......still living under said overpass.

I'm sure it'll happen... It just won't be in as direct of terms as that. It'll be wrapped up terms like "successful business model" and the like.

the problem is you keep saying unions don't work.....when have they failed when not under BK? Yeah your a big talker because a judge told the unions to shut up and bind over....but when that didnt happen. During all those years before BK....your trying to tell me labor wasn't doing well? thought so

Of course labor did well. What it also did well- and what continues to get glossed over- is provide a framework for consistent application of policies and procedures, as well as an avenue for workers to redress grievances (no pun intended). DL's system does not allow for that (it doesn't have to), nor does it allow for any sort of creative/constructive conflict.

What we see as a result is a sort of learned helplessness amongst a group of people too beat down (or afraid) to dare ask the tough questions anymore. Luckily, that tide seems to be turning- certainly within IFS and 120, anyway...

Add to that DL's masterful use of both messaging and operant conditioning, and it's easy to see why we're where we're at today.