NW selects AAR for B757 heavy maintenance/mod contract

[ThirdSeatHero]

Instead of recognizing the irony that work formerly done by union members is being sent to a maintenance facility formerly staffed by union members, you'd rather nitpick.

You wonder how management always seems to win lately?... People like you are too busy fiddling while Rome burns.

On the contrary, while I no longer work in aviation or under a union, I do continue to enjoy pointing out the failings of management stooges, such as your self, who lack the moral character to admit when they were wrong. This industry is plagued with ethically bankrupt individuals, again like you, who instead of learning from their mistakes, make pathetic attempts to dismiss/minimize corrections or deflect attention with rhetorical nonsense. Like this gem....

"You wonder how management always seems to win lately?... People like you are too busy fiddling while Rome burns."

As if giving credence to your thinly veiled slight might somehow provide valuable insight to some overlooked bit of critical knowledge, that might save the industry.

Get over yourself, you made an incorrect statement, you got called on it.

 

[robbedagain]

i agree with you on it all the way mgmt is all too stupid when they cant even admit to their own failures

 

[Get Over It Already]

when do the unions ever admit there mistakes?

This industry is plagued with ethically bankrupt individuals, again like you, who instead of learning from their mistakes

and boneheads like you believe that unions are blameless.

like it or not but management stooges won this match, just like they did at usair, united, delta, mesaba. when is the last time a union won?

unions keep playing the same game "we cant be replaced" and lose over and over again yet your too stupid to see it

fat cat union bosses like feminie spoke big when taking nw mechanics over a cliff. then they hid in the shadows for the past year. they should have been out for the strikers and putting pressure on mgmt. instead they hide like coward suckasses.

they are no better than the suckass scabs who replaced the strikers.

the ua and aa people who took over this forums suck too. you want to tell the nw people what to do but have no skin in the game to lose

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

when do the unions ever admit there mistakes?

Seldom, but by that measure a whole lot more so than airline industry management.

and boneheads like you believe that unions are blameless.

I'm sorry, do you know me? Can you produce any statements/posts by me claiming " unions are blameless"??? I was involved in 3 AMFA organizing campaigns at UAL precisely BECAUSE I thought the IAM (my former union) was to blame, for a great many things.

You should refrain from trying to put words in my mouth, you'll look less like a moron.

like it or not but management stooges won this match, just like they did at usair, united, delta, mesaba. when is the last time a union won?

So because 4 legacy carriers go bankrupt you view that as a victory? Let me guess, you're one of those brain trusts who want to lay that at the feet of labor too?

unions keep playing the same game "we cant be replaced" and lose over and over again yet your too stupid to see it

What you seem too stupid to see is the possibility of the same situation at NWA repeating itself elsewhere in the industry is slim to none. NWA(to their credit or infamy)took advantage of a unique situation caused by 9-11. NWA last mechanic contract went to a PEB. WHY? UAL mechanics in their last contract prior to bankruptcy went to a PEB. WHY? The answer is because of a mechanic SHORTAGE! Following 9-11 thousands of mechanics were laid off from the legacy carriers as they parked portions of their fleets and downsized. There were still thousands of mechanics on an unanticipated layoff when AMFA at NWA started into contract negotiations and NWA used that to their advantage.
The next major AMT contract coming up is SWA in 2008, the rest play out roughly over the next 4 years(08'-12'). Minus another terrorist attack/SARS type incident there won't be thousands of mechanics on the street looking for a job to come back to. The media was quite thorough in its coverage of the airline industries massacre. Other than a token amount of aviation enthusiasts, there won't be enough mechanics to cover the growing need for maintenance, as those technically inclined will take their services elsewhere.

fat cat union bosses like feminie spoke big when taking nw mechanics over a cliff. then they hid in the shadows for the past year. they should have been out for the strikers and putting pressure on mgmt. instead they hide like coward suckasses.

they are no better than the suckass scabs who replaced the strikers.

While I'm not quite sure how public it was made, Dell was hospitalized for a large portion of the strike. I will agree that AMFA National as a body should've had a larger presence. Other than that, I must disagree with you.

the ua and aa people who took over this forums suck too. you want to tell the nw people what to do but have no skin in the game to lose

When ever I hear comments like this one I have to laugh. As if NWA employees, or any other airline employees actually sit back and go..." hmmmm, what should I do? How should I vote? I know! I'll go to the USAviation.com message boards and see what they say to do."

GROW UP!

THIS IS A MESSAGE BOARD! Its exact purpose is the types of discussions you see here everyday.(well almost all are)

 

[eolesen]

The next major AMT contract coming up is SWA in 2008, the rest play out roughly over the next 4 years(08'-12'). Minus another terrorist attack/SARS type incident there won't be thousands of mechanics on the street looking for a job to come back to.

True, yet thanks to the outsourcing of overhaul by just about every major carrier except for AA and a token amount done at WN, there aren't thousands of jobs left to be filled in the event of a walkout or mass attrition.

NWA proved that it's possible to fully re-staff line maintenance just by recruiting A&P's who are either unemployed or underpaid at the MRO's. Given the amount of attention on this forum from people outside NWA, that's obviously not going unnoticed by management at the other carriers.

What labor needs to do is find a way of working around that with tactical responses, as opposed to taking the traditional scorched earth approach of walking out en masse. You've already got a template to follow... it's called CHAOS, and it scares the hell out of management because they know they can't possibly respond to random walkouts.

Other than a token amount of aviation enthusiasts, there won't be enough mechanics to cover the growing need for maintenance, as those technically inclined will take their services elsewhere.

While there might not be as many unemployed AMT's in 2008-2012, there seems to be a steady stream of people getting their A&P's and going to work at regionals, FBO's, MRO's, etc. You also have former military techs who eventually get tired of life in uniform, so I don't know that the future recruiting situation (whether or not it is for legitimate newhires or scab replacements) is quite so dire.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

True, yet thanks to the outsourcing of overhaul by just about every major carrier except for AA and a token amount done at WN, there aren't thousands of jobs left to be filled in the event of a walkout or mass attrition.

NWA proved that it's possible to fully re-staff line maintenance just by recruiting A&P's who are either unemployed or underpaid at the MRO's. Given the amount of attention on this forum from people outside NWA, that's obviously not going unnoticed by management at the other carriers.

What labor needs to do is find a way of working around that with tactical responses, as opposed to taking the traditional scorched earth approach of walking out en masse. You've already got a template to follow... it's called CHAOS, and it scares the hell out of management because they know they can't possibly respond to random walkouts.

You might want to recheck your numbers. I know as of this moment UAL has 5,700+ mechanics. The last time I checked, CAL was aprox 3,000+. While many indeed have outsourced heavy maintenance, several airlines still perform up to C-checks, and in UALs case, extensive heavy engine maintenance.

As far as employing CHAOS in the future, I don't disagree.

While there might not be as many unemployed AMT's in 2008-2012, there seems to be a steady stream of people getting their A&P's and going to work at regionals, FBO's, MRO's, etc. You also have former military techs who eventually get tired of life in uniform, so I don't know that the future recruiting situation (whether or not it is for legitimate newhires or scab replacements) is quite so dire.

It would seem the industry is telling a different story.

http://www.ainonline.com/Publications/as3/..._06_Lack_A3.htm


Just a few highlights.

"Charles Hawes, president of the Aviation Technical Education Council (ATEC), said the statistics paint a rather bleak picture of the future of the industry.

“Last year for every graduate of an ATEC A&P school there were 10 openings throughout the industry,†he said, then put it in perspective by citing his own institution. “In 2004 and 2005 we had about 175 graduates each year from Michigan Institute of Aviation and Technology. In each of those two years we had more than 3,000 job openings listed; that’s 20 per graduate. Yet during the same period there was a 12-percent decrease in FAR 147 maintenance training programs nationwide. Certainly part of the problem is it’s a very expensive program to run, but many closed simply for lack of enrollment.â€

According to Hawes, in 1991 the enrollment at FAR 147 schools peaked at 12,000; the current number of students has dropped to approximately 6,000.

“When the industry recovered we failed to recover with it. Despite the fact that legacy airlines are laying people off and going into bankruptcy, business aviation is setting production records. The problem is the word isn’t getting out; business aviation is like a hidden industry. To make matters worse, the baby-boomer generation has begun retiring. So not only are we losing our workforce but we’re competing with other industries that are also losing their workforce. We have to get students into maintenance schools.â€"

The situation may indeed be characterized as dire, and it only gets worse from there.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

You might want to recheck your numbers. I know as of this moment UAL has 5,700+ mechanics. The last time I checked, CAL was aprox 3,000+. While many indeed have outsourced heavy maintenance, several airlines still perform up to C-checks, and in UALs case, extensive heavy engine maintenance.

As far as employing CHAOS in the future, I don't disagree.
It would seem the industry is telling a different story.

http://www.ainonline.com/Publications/as3/..._06_Lack_A3.htm
Just a few highlights.

"Charles Hawes, president of the Aviation Technical Education Council (ATEC), said the statistics paint a rather bleak picture of the future of the industry.

“Last year for every graduate of an ATEC A&P school there were 10 openings throughout the industry,†he said, then put it in perspective by citing his own institution. “In 2004 and 2005 we had about 175 graduates each year from Michigan Institute of Aviation and Technology. In each of those two years we had more than 3,000 job openings listed; that’s 20 per graduate. Yet during the same period there was a 12-percent decrease in FAR 147 maintenance training programs nationwide. Certainly part of the problem is it’s a very expensive program to run, but many closed simply for lack of enrollment.â€

According to Hawes, in 1991 the enrollment at FAR 147 schools peaked at 12,000; the current number of students has dropped to approximately 6,000.

“When the industry recovered we failed to recover with it. Despite the fact that legacy airlines are laying people off and going into bankruptcy, business aviation is setting production records. The problem is the word isn’t getting out; business aviation is like a hidden industry. To make matters worse, the baby-boomer generation has begun retiring. So not only are we losing our workforce but we’re competing with other industries that are also losing their workforce. We have to get students into maintenance schools.â€"

The situation may indeed be characterized as dire, and it only gets worse from there.

The 147 schools were preaching the same thing when I went to A&P school. I'm still looking for the shortage they were predicting then. The supply of mechanics is well above the demand right now and will continue to be so for a while. All these jobs this guy is talking about are third rate entry level jobs at the MRO's where you’re lucky to get twelve an hour with an A&P and eight an hour with out. More and more MRO's have fewer and fewer A&P's. If you can tell the difference between a screw driver and a pipe wrench they give you the title AMT and put you to work maintaining America's aircraft fleet. The A&P is a dying craft in commercial aviation.

 

[tech2101]

The 147 schools were preaching the same thing when I went to A&P school. I'm still looking for the shortage they were predicting then. The supply of mechanics is well above the demand right now and will continue to be so for a while. All these jobs this guy is talking about are third rate entry level jobs at the MRO's where you’re lucky to get twelve an hour with an A&P and eight an hour with out. More and more MRO's have fewer and fewer A&P's. If you can tell the difference between a screw driver and a pipe wrench they give you the title AMT and put you to work maintaining America's aircraft fleet. The A&P is a dying craft in commercial aviation.

"If you can tell the difference between a screw driver and a pipe wrench they give you the title AMT and put you to work maintaining America's aircraft fleet.'


A sad commentary to what my former profession has become. I am glad to be out of it. I am now making more working on critical power and hvac than I can make as a 20 year airline A&P/Avionics/FCC Technician.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

The 147 schools were preaching the same thing when I went to A&P school. I'm still looking for the shortage they were predicting then. The supply of mechanics is well above the demand right now and will continue to be so for a while. All these jobs this guy is talking about are third rate entry level jobs at the MRO's where you’re lucky to get twelve an hour with an A&P and eight an hour with out. More and more MRO's have fewer and fewer A&P's. If you can tell the difference between a screw driver and a pipe wrench they give you the title AMT and put you to work maintaining America's aircraft fleet. The A&P is a dying craft in commercial aviation.

It would seem those in this industry with alot more knowledge and credibility would disagree.

I think most would give more weight to the position of the president of the ATEC, and others rather than the inane musings of someone who up until a few months ago had no idea where the term "AMT" came from and thinks multi-day engine changes are the norm.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

It would seem those in this industry with alot more knowledge and credibility would disagree...

You can disagree all you want, the facts still remain the same. I watched an AMT of two whole months that couldn't roll mylar out straight on the floor pull out his little rubber "AMT" stamp and stamp off task card items. I told him how shitty his work looked and his only comment was, "It doesn't matter what it looks like, it’s going to be covered any way." It is obvious you have no idea how the majority of aircraft are maintained in this country. You have lived a very sheltered career in the aviation industry. Ask local if you do not believe me.

 

[eolesen]

More and more MRO's have fewer and fewer A&P's.

That's either because there are fewer A&P's to choose from, or because they're only staffing the bare minimum required.

I'm inclined to believe it's the latter, since these guys operate to make a profit and don't have a union forcing them to adhere to contractually imposed staffing levels/ratios which may or may not be necessary.

 

[jenny@nw]

First of all, schools are a business. They want to attract and retain potential students and current students. They will come up with their own statistics; however it should be up to the individual if they want to persue finding this out for themeselves.

I know some schools who advertise how they have "easy" and "fast" MBA programs ... only to find that it isn't accredited for that program.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

You can disagree all you want, the facts still remain the same.

And what "facts" are those? Maybe the fact that you're trying to change the subject? My post was about the shortage of aircraft mechanics, NOT your inane blathering about shoddy OSV mechanic wannabes

 

[robbedagain]

You can disagree all you want, the facts still remain the same. I watched an AMT of two whole months that couldn't roll mylar out straight on the floor pull out his little rubber "AMT" stamp and stamp off task card items. I told him how shitty his work looked and his only comment was, "It doesn't matter what it looks like, it’s going to be covered any way." It is obvious you have no idea how the majority of aircraft are maintained in this country. You have lived a very sheltered career in the aviation industry. Ask local if you do not believe me.

well his sh!tty work is the same as the rest of the entire maintaince at SHODDY AIR. Next thing you know that they will have to repaint the entire fleet of SHODDY AIR in orange with the words MEL written on the tail and fuselage and may be a few dents and scratches on it

 

[PlayTheOdds]

well his sh!tty work is the same as the rest of the entire maintaince at SHODDY AIR. Next thing you know that they will have to repaint the entire fleet of SHODDY AIR in orange with the words MEL written on the tail and fuselage and may be a few dents and scratches on it

Just curious, am I the only person that reads robbed's post and think WTF?