Delta Air Lines to Build Heavy Maintenance Facility in Queretaro, Mexico

[topDawg]

Southwind,
does the RIF policy that was used during the consolidation of MTC actually exist on paper? I don't really think it does... and that simply proves the point that just because a policy doesn't exist in writing DL can't use it.

Actually, there is no written policy regarding bumping by seniority during 7.5 in ACS but there was a system seniority date that was determined who would remain in ACS and who would be displaced. It took about 10 years to hold full-time in ACS during 7.5.

Since seniority obviously varied between stations, DL did in fact level people in one station to accommodate others.

Those who argue for semantics can do so but if there was a system seniority date established and anyone below that date was displaced, then there was no fear that someone in one station would be displaced if that station were closed while more junior employees remained.

What I don't remember - 7.5 was almost 20 years ago - is whether those left standing could bump others who also were above the system seniority level... and I'm not sure that even happened in Tech Ops. Yes, you could bump out someone who didn't make the cut but I'm still not sure that an ACS person during 7.5 or a Tech Ops employee during maintenance consolidation could bump a person who was above the seniority that could remain on a system basis so one "survivor" could bump another survivor out of their own city.

Again, if having a benefit which allows employees to bump other employees out of a job for which both hold the seniority to retain the position on a system basis is something enough people feel is worth it, vote in a union to obtain that benefit.

But in neither 7.5 or in the maintenance consolidation was a senior employee (as defined by the system seniority date for that classification relative to seniority that could remian in ANY location) pushed out of the door if they were willing to relocate to another city to keep a job.

Delta doesn't have to have anything in writing because they can (mostly) do whatever they want. Sure they have "policy" but that can be changed pretty easily.

They try to get a reading on what will piss people off the least. (just like this shift bid thing, They are dumping the best shift they have, but it sounds like they are going to dump 5/8s during the week and do 4/10s.....I can live with that.)

 

[Jaye Loves Airplanes]

This is great!

 

[Kev3188]

What is?

 

[Airlinelifer]

Actually, Glenn, I didn't real the statements you cited with pleasure - and have to keep the same sense of "uh-oh" front and center in mind. There is enough of a history of maintenance outsourcing among US airilnes to not allow anyone to let their guard down.....

I'm not sure this is as big of a deal as it might seem.

- previously, DL said the investment (IIRC) for the maintenance joint venture would be $45M. If that number is correct, it doesn't come close to building facilities anywhere near the size that would be needed to significantly compete with - let alone replace - the TOC. Can it be more than a couple bays?
- your quote left out a key qualifier that was put in the original sentence "lower maintenance costs without compromising the very high quality work that Aeromexico provides Delta." That sentence does not mean, and probably should not be accurate construed as meaning that DL will send any more work out the door than it already does; it might not even mean more work for DL than what AM already does.
- previous press releases about the maintenance joint venture said that the purpose of the maintenance JV was to allow DL and AM to profitably bid for MRO work which neither can do fully on their own today - either because of a lack of capabilities on AM's part or costs above levels to be profitable on DL's part for airframe overhauls. As has been noted, DL does insource airframe overhauls now, but only as part of larger maintenance contracts. This partnership should allow DL to bid on larger maintenance contracts but leave the airframe overnhauls to AM while allowing DL to do more engine and component maintenance.
- DL already sends alot of airframe overhaul work to Asia where the cost of just getting the plane there is much, much higher than it will be to Mexico - and labor rates in Mexico are lower than they are in SIN and HKG, places where DL sends overhaul work today.

Is there the risk DL could send more of Tech Ops over the board? Anything is possible. But since DL has said they intend to double the size of Tech Ops insourcing, that seems unlikely. Since DL already runs the largest airline MRO in the Americas, doubling the size is no small feat. Given that DL already keeps a higher percentage of its work inhouse than any airline except AA - who is itself in the midst of a major process to outsource work - DL would have to move an aweful lot of work away from DL employees to reach levels comparable w/ the rest of the industry.

Let's also remember that all of the other airline mechanics had contracts which their employers through out in BK or have walked away from systematically.

DL has the lowest maintenance costs in the industry by CASM. DL has the ability to build on what it does well instead of throwing the whole ball of wax out the door.

Remain guarded? absolutely. worried? probably not necessary.

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12228

 

[WorldTraveler]

And where is any specific information on what DL will do?

And where is the insourcing revenue from other carriers that DL generates?

So Crandall rails against outsourced maintenance because of deregulation even though AA became an international carrier because of deregulation.
Remember that WN, a deregulation success story, built its business model around outsourced maintenance FROM THE BEGINNING.

It should be noted that AA and DL were both supportive of deregulation before it happened. It is more than a little ironic for the CEO at AA during much of the early part of deregulation to now say that he believes deregulation is a failure. Crandall had every opportunity to shape the airline industry to provide what he thought it should have been... but he didn't.

Note that Crandall also says that if he were at the helm of AA in the 2000s, he would have filed for BK at the same time as the other carriers.. and he says it was a mistake for AA's mgmt not to file.

Crandall now has buyers remorse for the deregulation AA supported because others managed to do a better job of adapting to deregulation than AA.

 

[topDawg]

And where is the insourcing revenue from other carriers that DL generates?

why do you keep bring that up? it has nothing...notta...not a damn thing....to do with Delta sending its HMVs to Mexico. Nothing. Quit bringing up something that is mostly engine work. Once again, the airframe side gets screwed....but those guys on the street (or those that got kicked out of the hangar and are now in back shops) should be just friggin happy because of the engine shop.

and you do know that most of those guys would sell airframe right down the river to keep engines.

 

[WorldTraveler]

if the intention is to talk about saving jobs, which you clearly believe is part of the question based on your last sentence, then it absolutely matters whether DL insources or not.

DL has chosen the path of specializing on parts of its maintenance operation that it can do profitably while sending other work out and at the same time bringing in other work for a profit of the same type as what DL does inhouse.
Other carriers simply outsource with no replacement of work. DL has chosen a different path and has even chosen to partner with AM to provide a package of services where AM specializes in airframe work and DL specializes in engine and component work. Instead of sending work out to someone who DL can't control and to whom DL is simply a client, DL is building a maintenance model where DL is a partner w/ someone that can produce a complete maintenance product.

The principle of specializiation is a key principle of the industrial revolution. In a modern world, people don't try to raise their own vegetables, build their own houses, and produce their own electricity.

Workers in the industrial age are supposed to be capable of transferring skills. You apparently can't or don't want to grasp the concept that DL doesn't do airframe overhauls but they do engine and component maintenance.

Other departments within DL have faced outsourcing to providers that are specialists in that area including in the areas of onboard provisions and IT services. Maintenance is not the only area where DL has outsourced jobs it once did exclusively inhouse. Same for other airlines.

The AF/KL joint venture is based on each side outsourcing certain passenger service functions based on geography to the other members of the JV.....Each "side of the Atlantic" prices the product, answers the phone, and sells the product for the JV for "their side of the Atlantic" based on the mass and expertise each has on their own continent.

It takes a lot of trust to allow someone else - your former competitor - to be your sales force but that is what the JV does. And DL is not alone.

DL also insources work to other areas of the company including passenger handling based on DL delivering to other carriers what DL does well and has built the appropriate infrastructure to provide.

DL is providing you with an opportunity to do a job which is within the capabilities that they wish to maintain. You do realize that by the end of year, DL will have the largest in-house maintenance operation in the Americas and one of the largest in the world? Many would be glad to have the opportunity to use their skills in DL's operation than be pushed out of a job as they have faced/will face at other carriers who outsource w/o insourcing.

 

[blue collar]

Workers in the industrial age are supposed to be capable of transferring skills. You apparently can't or don't want to grasp the concept that DL doesn't do airframe overhauls but they do engine and component maintenance.

Yeah you peons.. Transfer your skills to working on coffee makers and seats. And don't complain!! Accept the pay cut and thank delta everyday for letting you have a job!

 

[WorldTraveler]

no, its ENGINES. JET ENGINES.

 

[blue collar]

You must've not fully read the script you were handed. It clearly says engine and component maintenance.

 

[topDawg]

if the intention is to talk about saving jobs, which you clearly believe is part of the question based on your last sentence, then it absolutely matters whether DL insources or not. good lord man. I'll ask one more time...what does engine work have to do with the work going to Mexico? (hint...nothing)

DL has chosen the path of specializing on parts of its maintenance operation that it can do profitably while sending other work out and at the same time bringing in other work for a profit of the same type as what DL does inhouse.
Other carriers simply outsource with no replacement of work. DL has chosen a different path and has even chosen to partner with AM to provide a package of services where AM specializes in airframe work and DL specializes in engine and component work. Instead of sending work out to someone who DL can't control and to whom DL is simply a client, DL is building a maintenance model where DL is a partner w/ someone that can produce a complete maintenance product.
but hold on. 1) what engine work? this show me that you know little about TechOps. Unless Delta magically pulls an engine shop out of then air where is this "new" work going to go? ATL is overflowing. 2)Delta is trying to find so way of not looking stupid.... Call it what you want but sending HMVs out has been a failure. They cost a little less and aren't doing near the quality of work TechOps does. This is the last ditch effort. (and I'm enjoying it. hopefully this plan bleeds money like the others have)
The principle of specializiation is a key principle of the industrial revolution. In a modern world, people don't try to raise their own vegetables, build their own houses, and produce their own electricity.
........Some times I think you just like to see your words......
Workers in the industrial age are supposed to be capable of transferring skills. You apparently can't or don't want to grasp the concept that DL doesn't do airframe overhauls but they do engine and component maintenance.
sure I can go do a job I don't like....sounds like fun. Maybe after that I can come home and set my head on fire. smh. I have a A&P and a FCC....I can do almost anything I want. I want to work on airplanes....not engines. I want to have as much work done here. Guess what? I could be fixing chillers or s**ters or engines and I'd still be b*tchin about the outsourcing.
Other departments within DL have faced outsourcing to providers that are specialists in that area including in the areas of onboard provisions and IT services. Maintenance is not the only area where DL has outsourced jobs it once did exclusively inhouse. Same for other airlines.
don't care. Not my problem. I can about M&R. (a reason why im a AMFA fan). Feel sorry for the ramp or the pilots but at the end of the day its not my problem and has little to do with me. quit with the *be happy* crap man.
The AF/KL joint venture is based on each side outsourcing certain passenger service functions based on geography to the other members of the JV.....Each "side of the Atlantic" prices the product, answers the phone, and sells the product for the JV for "their side of the Atlantic" based on the mass and expertise each has on their own continent.
more crap. show me proof that Delta must build its own hangars in Mexico to please AF.
It takes a lot of trust to allow someone else - your former competitor - to be your sales force but that is what the JV does. And DL is not alone.
someone get someone a cookie please. Its amazing to me how you run away from the topic.
DL also insources work to other areas of the company including passenger handling based on DL delivering to other carriers what DL does well and has built the appropriate infrastructure to provide.
cool story bro.
DL is providing you with an opportunity to do a job which is within the capabilities that they wish to maintain. You do realize that by the end of year, DL will have the largest in-house maintenance operation in the Americas and one of the largest in the world? Many would be glad to have the opportunity to use their skills in DL's operation than be pushed out of a job as they have faced/will face at other carriers who outsource w/o insourcing. and he finishes with be happy and shut up or GTFO. you sir are part of the problem.
and I believe that true work....AA will still be larger. Not sure how they work over there but i think they will be doing just as much work done by Delta on all fleet types and with do the HMVs on 737s. (200+ airplanes) Delta will be doing that in Mexico.
also...AA will be doing all of its engine overhauls. Delta will still have many types done by 3rd parties. (T800/GE90/BR715/V2500 and the CF6 for the 764s)

 

[Kev3188]

DL is providing you with an opportunity to do a job which is within the capabilities that they wish to maintain.

GMAFB.

How far gone does one have to be to actually still buy into the idea that DL is some sort of benevolent figure?

No, 'Dawg has a job because his skillset matches a function the company needs performed. Same story with myself, and every other active employee out there.

 

[WorldTraveler]

who ever said that DL was some benevolent figure?

I have always said that YOU are part of a labor market that allows you to provide services in return for a paycheck.
DL doesn't hand out money to people who can't produce for them.

Dawg doesn't seem to be able to grasp the concept that as a licensed skilled mechanic, assuming he actually is, then he should be more than a one trick pony who can only rip out cabins and put them back together.

Engines are the most valuable part of what DL does, but it is far from the sum total. But even engines are distinctly different from fixing coffee makers.

AF could care less about where DL fixes its planes... because maintenance is not part of the joint operations between DL and AF/KL/AZ. Passenger service and sales are part of the JV and on those concepts DL shares functions and reciprocally outsources and insources.

AM does the same thing w/ DL... but you don't want to admit that there is a TWO-WAY flow of revenue between DL and AM because if you admitted it, you would have nothing to complain about and you would have to admit that DL really does protect the jobs of its employees better than other US network airlines.

Hey Dawg,
since you are so focused on jobs, how about you come up w/ totals for the number of employees that work in Tech Ops/maintenance at each of the US airlines as of Jan when AA's cuts will have taken place - and let me know how well DL stacks up.

I'll be awating your response.

 

[Kev3188]

who ever said that DL was some benevolent figure?

You did.

But by all means, feel free to explain how the phrase "DL is providing you with an opportunity" should be taken...

 

[WorldTraveler]

"provide" does not mean one is receiving a gift...

Every child provided an opportunity to gain an education in public schools in the US... but how one uses the opportunity is of their own doing - and no one is gifted with an education. You either gain it on your own or lose the opportunity.

In the same way, DL provides its employees w/ an opportunity to work... but it is not a gift and requires responsibilities on each side.

It is only those who expect they should be given something struggle with the concept that DL, like any decent company, provides a paycheck in return for services... most people have no trouble grasping the concept.