Daddy, why do you work two jobs?

[MCI transplant]

Which part of my fact filled post do you consider opinion.

<_< AMFAMAN---- We can play this "what if" game all day long, and your not going to convince me of anything! Or am I going to convince you! So what's the point? Bob says MCI is a "source of contention", as it should be! I've tried (not too well perhaps) to let you know how I feel a large number of the AMT's here at MCI feel about what's going on. Now you can do what you want with that information. But the fact of the matter is that some where, at some time, your going to need us! Remember that!!!

 

[AMFAMAN]

But the fact of the matter is that some where, at some time, your going to need us! Remember that!!!

There is no denying that we do need MCI to get on board with contracts and representational issues, but when are they. My point is that they have shot themselves in the foot several times over the past several years, when do they stop that? When are they going to stop using the seniority issue as a way to get back at the nAAtives, who by the way never had a vote in it, by way of not signing authorization cards and/or voting in turds of a contract?

 

[MCI transplant]

There is no denying that we do need MCI to get on board with contracts and representational issues, but when are they. My point is that they have shot themselves in the foot several times over the past several years, when do they stop that? When are they going to stop using the seniority issue as a way to get back at the nAAtives, who by the way never had a vote in it, by way of not signing authorization cards and/or voting in turds of a contract?

<_< ---- You still can't see beyond the end of your nose can you? What we've done in the past, was done to save jobs, and keep this base open! And aa made no secret of the fact that if it went into bankruptcy they would close MCI! I repeat! We are limited on where we could go by Kasher if the place was shut down! And do not have the luxury of enjoying "system protection" like you do! We would not receive the $12,500, like yourself! And most of us are too old to start over!!! So I can understand why some voted the way they did! They didn't feel they wanted to put their livelihood, and the well being of their families, on the line, just so Bob and his fellow AMT's in New York, could maintain their life styles! As for working two jobs! That my friend has been commen place arround here! With Ichan and his friends, we've had to for years! May I point out that if the Brothers hadn't purposely put us in this position to begin with, things may have been different! So I feel there's enough "shooting oneself in the foot to go around!!!! 😉

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

<_< Bob--- Your preaching to the choir! I voted no because it was a peace of crap! But believe it or not, not everyone here wants to move to New York City! Or put their families through the expense or disruption of their lives, just to maintaine your life style! Believe it or not, two jobs has been common place around here for quit a few years! So when you come to us and cry about it, you'll just be handed a crying towel, nothing more!!! Believe me Bob, I know how you feel! But the problem is these people can't see much difference between the TWU, and the AMFA! In their eyes the same people that voted to staple them are the same people that are pushing for change! Remember these are hard headed, independent people! They don't forget! What your going to have to do is convince them that the AMFA will try to put us "ALL" on an equal footing! I'm not saying restore what you can't! But work toward an equal system of job protection! Although I feel the whole "protection" thing will soon be a thimg of the past! The exTWAers have gone to the street in your place for too long! We have people on the street with over twenty years, and a few "nAAtives" here that are "protected", with less, that are still working! Nice guys, but still not right! Since the buy out, and 9/11, over 1,500 exTWA AMT's have lost their jobs!

How do you justfy getting full seniority at AA when you never worked here a day in your life.
Should the Eastern and Pan American Mechs get time with AA because we were in the industry.

My father was at AA for 5 years but hit the street to make room for you twa guys who bumped into LGA.

And what about the people who saw the writing on the wall and quit twa to join AA. What should become of them. Do they keep their seniority even thugh they were smart enough to quit TWA

There are many scenarios that could have happened but you
TWAers should be glad you got what you got.

You think that you were the only ones who got screwed on the deal. Go talk to my dad he is the one who got screwed.
:down:

 

[AMFAMAN]

<_< ---- You still can't see beyond the end of your nose can you? What we've done in the past, was done to save jobs, and keep this base open! And aa made no secret of the fact that if it went into bankruptcy they would close MCI! I repeat! We are limited on where we could go by Kasher if the place was shut down! And do not have the luxury of enjoying "system protection" like you do! We would not receive the $12,500, like yourself! And most of us are too old to start over!!! So I can understand why some voted the way they did! They didn't feel they wanted to put their livelihood, and the well being of their families, on the line, just so Bob and his fellow AMT's in New York, could maintain their life styles! As for working two jobs! That my friend has been commen place arround here! With Ichan and his friends, we've had to for years! May I point out that if the Brothers hadn't purposely put us in this position to begin with, things may have been different! So I feel there's enough "shooting oneself in the foot to go around!!!! 😉

I'm short-sighted, I'm not the one claiming AAers actually had a say in the seniority issue, because as you know that was handled by the Presidents council and Kasher. But you did answer my question with the last sentence as it's obvious that MCI will forever shoot themselves in the foot and remain bitter if it means keeping the base open, screwing New Yorkers and/or the nAAtives. But we AAers are short-sighted because of someone elses decisions. Meanwhile, all the while, no Duty of Fair Representation(DFR) suit were filed against the IAM by the MCI crowd over them waving your integration seniority language without a membership vote during the merger, or the fact they low-balled the membership size to the NMB to avoid a representational election between the twu and the iam. It's always someone elses fault: Icahn, AAers, New Yorkers, Bankruptcy, iam, twu, etc, and never look back and learn from the mistakes of the past, hell, you might have to blame yourselves than. So there is no fight, just plenty of whine in MCI.

 

[Bob Owens]

<_< Believe it or not, two jobs has been common place around here for quit a few years!

Sure but for different reasons. They do it because they are greedy, we do it because we have to just to get by.

Believe me Bob, I know how you feel! But the problem is these people can't see much difference between the TWU, and the AMFA!

That doesnt say much for them does it? When TWA took over OZARK, AMFA demanded that they be dovetailed, the TWU decided to staple you. Still cant see a difference?

In their eyes the same people that voted to staple them are the same people that are pushing for change! Remember these are hard headed, independent people!

Well the fact is that the only votes that counted towards that decision was the Internationals vote. None of the membership, pro AMFA or TWU, had any Constitutional authority to determine whether or not you guys were dovetailed. That decision was the Internationals to make and they made it, and they alone determined that you would be stapled,but as is typical with the TWU International they took steps to defer the blame. They conducted a meaningless vote so they could go to MCI and tell you guys to blame people you will never likey see, but it leaves them off the hook, and apparently your coworkers fell for it.

I attended the first meeting they had about TWA in Nashville and the only Local that wanted to staple the TWA guys was the dispatchers local, and thats because they were TWU. I doubt that any of the FSC local reps or those from Tulsa and AFW that voted to staple were AMFA supporters. Its dumb to blame AMFA supporters when the fact is that the only AA person that I recall calling for all TWA to be Dovetailed was Dave Stewart from Tulsa, one of the top AMFA supporters there.

If the IAM had given the TWA workers the option to vote on whether Ozark was stapled or dovetailed how do you think the vote would have went? The TWU never asked the membership what they should do with Aircal, Reno or Transcarib. They simply informed us of their decisions.

They don't forget!

What your going to have to do is convince them that the AMFA will try to put us "ALL" on an equal footing! I'm not saying restore what you can't! But work toward an equal system of job protection!

I have no problem with that, but like I said they voted away protection that the the contract gave them by default (except for the $12500) by voting to roll back system protection.Besides system protection is a joke. They roll it back when they feel like it and at the current attrition rate AA will be desperate for workers in a few years. Thats one of the reasons they are pushing PLI so hard. To get fewer workers to do more work.

Although I feel the whole "protection" thing will soon be a thimg of the past! The exTWAers have gone to the street in your place for too long! We have people on the street with over twenty years, and a few "nAAtives" here that are "protected", with less, that are still working! Nice guys, but still not right! Since the buy out, and 9/11, over 1,500 exTWA AMT's have lost their jobs!

Well I have over 26 years, 20 of them at AA. The company I work for has done well for most of those years, then they decided to buy TWA, now you are saying that I should be put out on the street to make way for someone who chose the wrong company to work for? Who knew? Could have been the other way around but we all made our choices, I shouldnt have to pay for your choice.

 

[Michael B]

The union should have said at the time "if you need to cut costs, then do a reduction in force". At least then, if and when there were recalls - people would come back to good pay and benefits.

Be careful what you wish for. Delta did a little *soft shoe* with the Song and mainline F/A's. The end result is that there are many senior F/A's whose recall rights are about to run out while junior F/A's have been brought back.

 

[Vortilon]

B)-->QUOTE(Michael B @ Aug 27 2006, 11:00 PM) [post="410549"][/post]

Be careful what you wish for. Delta did a little *soft shoe* with the Song and mainline F/A's. The end result is that there are many senior F/A's whose recall rights are about to run out while junior F/A's have been brought back.
[/quote]

Hey thanks for the advice Mike. I'm not sure I follow your comparison. I guess it depends on the circumstances for each person on layoff and what their recall preferences/requirements are. However, generally speaking - people are called back by seniority period.

The jist of the post is: why give up everything as far as pay and benefits right off the bat? The general feeling was: whats going to stop them from laying off more in the future? Well, fast foreward and here we are on the loosing end of both - Murphys Law I guess. You see, had we not given up so easy on the pay and benefits at the start - well, you see where this is going. 😉

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ---- Bob, Check your facts! First--- The reason for second jobs were for finical necessity, not greed! We've been dealing with concessions for a hell of a lot longer time than you! We've had to deal with the IAM, and Ichan, and a company that was (no ####!) ready to fold at any minute! Two jobs are the rule around here, and have been long before a.a., or the TWU, showed up! Second---- When aa bought TWA, there were 22,000+ TWA employees! That was a little over five years ago! How many of those employees are on the job today??? If aa had not bought TWA, how many nAAtive Americans would be on the street now, instead of TWAers??? Maybe you???

 

[Bob Owens]

<_< ---- Bob, Check your facts! First--- The reason for second jobs were for finical necessity, not greed! We've been dealing with concessions for a hell of a lot longer time than you! We've had to deal with the IAM, and Ichan, and a company that was (no ####!) ready to fold at any minute! Two jobs are the rule around here, and have been long before a.a., or the TWU, showed up!

Maybe you should check your facts first. A 3000+sqft house on an acre or more of land with a new pickup in the driveway is probably way above what similarly skilled people in your area have. What is the median family income for MCI? $30K? And you guys were pulling down $50k or better even with TWA, so your income was 40% above the median for your area. Now its double or 100% more. If you worked a second job there it was for greed not survival. Here on Long Island where I live the median family income is $80K and we make $60k, nearly 30% below. The reason why we make so little is because the majority of people in our class and craft live in low cost areas where despite concessions they still earn considerably more than the median income where they live and they could care less about anyone else, but then those same people will run around citing how unionist should behave.

Second---- When aa bought TWA,

"When aa bought TWA". Exactly, TWA did not come to the agreement as an equal, they were bought in Bankruptcy, and it was not their first time there either. Despite this fact you feel that you as a TWA employee should be able to displace an AA employee.

there were 22,000+ TWA employees! That was a little over five years ago! How many of those employees are on the job today???

I dont know but how many of those jobs were non-union? The question for us is "how many of those in the mechanics class and craft are still on layoff"? My guess is that as far as percentage its not that high. There are a lot of ex-TWA mechs working, probably a much higher percentage than pilots or Flight attendants. Most that are not are probably retired so the number that are furloughed is probably not much higher than the naative list.

If aa had not bought TWA, how many nAAtive Americans would be on the street now, instead of TWAers??? ?

Probably less than there are now. The fact is that ex-TWA guys displaced quite a few nAAtives. We had over 12000 Title1 before TWA and now we are down to 10100 with TWA. So at least 2000 naative jobs are gone, not including TWA which would bring the number much higher.

Maybe you??

Probably not, I'm at around 1800 on the seniority list.

 

[Bill]

Bob, why are you assuming that having a second job is caused by greed? Do you know this man's "personal" situation.....or anyone else you are referring to to make a statement like that????? Sounds as if you are making a judgement call rather that stating any facts Bob. Better check yourself on that one Bobby. Is it the fault of those who live in low cost areas, because their dollar goes farther? Should we feel sorry for you because your dollar doesn't stretch as far, and that you choose to live in the most expensive state in the union? No sympathy from me! Sorry.

I know several folks, at AA and not at AA who work two jobs. And it has NOTHING to do with greed. So it would behoove you to cut out the blanket statements when you haven't a clue as to what you are talking about.

 

[TWU informer]

Bob, why are you assuming that having a second job is caused by greed? Do you know this man's "personal" situation.....or anyone else you are referring to to make a statement like that????? Sounds as if you are making a judgement call rather that stating any facts Bob. Better check yourself on that one Bobby. Is it the fault of those who live in low cost areas, because their dollar goes farther? Should we feel sorry for you because your dollar doesn't stretch as far, and that you choose to live in the most expensive state in the union? No sympathy from me! Sorry.

I know several folks, at AA and not at AA who work two jobs. And it has NOTHING to do with greed. So it would behoove you to cut out the blanket statements when you haven't a clue as to what you are talking about.

What could you possibly know about "greed"?

greed

Pronunciation: (grēd), [key]
—n.
excessive or rapacious desire, esp. for wealth or possessions.


You have no desire for wealth or possesions. You simply want all workers to live near poverty so everyone can have a job. You have no business even commenting on "greed"!

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Bill,

"Is it the fault of those who live in low cost areas, because their dollar goes farther? Should we feel sorry for you because your dollar doesn't stretch as far, and that you choose to live in the most expensive state in the union? No sympathy from me! Sorry."

Living in any area of the country is a personal choice. What you try to ignore Bill is the fact that a "union" is to negotiate fair wages and benefits for their members.

Don't ask yourself if you should "feel sorry" for those of us that live in the real world. Ask yourself why do I not support my fellow union members who do live in a high cost of living area by supporting either higher wages or a COLA.

It's not sympathy. It's fairness.

 

[Bill]

Thank you Informer for giving me the defination of greed....I wouldn't have known that had you not told me. Be careful...your MO is showing!

You fella's are so hellbent on judging people that it is sickening. Don't pretend you know me or anything about me. If you choose to correlate my life with what union I choose to support you are more worthless than I previously thought. That is nothing more than a judgement call or better yet an ASSumption. You continue to post these sort of posts and it makes you look foolish man.

And Ken, you do the same thing. I support COLA, I always have but back to my original argument to Bobby, what gives him the right to portray those of us who do live in lowcost areas, who do work two jobs as being greedy???? NOTHING!!! I sympathize with anyone who can't pay their bills or support their families on one job and HAVE to work more than one....in Tulsa or NY but do not judge a man because of where he lives. Those in higher cost areas (like Bob in NY) made a conscious choice to work in the field of airline maintenance of which we all know is unpredictible (for lack of a better word). THAT is not my fault.

You TWU haters b*tch and moan about getting a "better" union so you can get back concessions given with the TWU. Here's a news flash....you aren't going to get what is not there to be gotten. Most of you supported the AMFA drive and do still support AMFA.....look at what has happended at those carriers. We are working to get jobs back, to keep work in-house, to bring third party work to our bases so that when the time comes we can go in to negotiations with high expectations. It's easy to be vigilante, to criticize and complain....and come time to get things back those folks will be the first with their hands out. Happens every time.

This forum has become nothing more than a breeding ground for the TWU disgruntled. And I'm all for freedom of speech but when it gets personal you can bet your ass I will jump right in and defend my position. So you TWU haters continue to gripe and complain and I will gladly accept your apologies soon.

 

[TWU informer]

Thank for that Update Bill.

We now know you still support rolling over and giving up on concession recovery rather than fight.

TWU MO is...

...Concessions for Jobs

And Jobs instead of Concession Snap Backs

GO ASK THE MEMBERSHIP IF THEY PREFER THEIR PAY AND BENEFITS BACK OR MORE JOBS!

You still blame AMFA for the continued STRIKE at NWA instead of your buddies like TWU Spokesperson JERRY SOWELL who is currently working as a SCAB!

WHAT PART OF UNION DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?