Company Match of Prefunding Refund

[IORFA]

APFA said today they need to pay us or they will start arbitration proceedings.

 

[Bob Owens]

So now it will be decided by an arbitrator...Since when did AA say they were not going to pay the match back and we need to have it arbitrated. I thought the letter you showed from 2003 was pretty clear legality wise. AA owes it, its ours, and we will get it. Things change daily....

Read your contract "upon successful resolution of the 1114 process". Should we fight for it? Hell yes, but I think that language will screw us in the end. I think it was put there for that reason and the people on "our side" knew it could screw us in the end. Several times I asked the International and their "expert lawyers" what exactly does that mean, they refused to answer. 
 
The plan says if we opt out, which we agreed to in the contract, we get just our half and the company keeps the other half, but if they opt out we get both. We agreed to opt out, they gave us our contributions back, and we agreed that we get the other half "upon successful resolution of the 1114 process".  Well what does that mean? With it going to court would you say that is considered a successful resolution of the 1114 process or not? 

 

[WeAAsles]

Read your contract "upon successful resolution of the 1114 process". Should we fight for it? Hell yes, but I think that language will screw us in the end. I think it was put there for that reason and the people on "our side" knew it could screw us in the end. Several times I asked the International and their "expert lawyers" what exactly does that mean, they refused to answer. 
 
The plan says if we opt out, which we agreed to in the contract, we get just our half and the company keeps the other half, but if they opt out we get both. We agreed to opt out, they gave us our contributions back, and we agreed that we get the other half "upon successful resolution of the 1114 process".  Well what does that mean? With it going to court would you say that is considered a successful resolution of the 1114 process or not? 

Here's a question that should be considered though. If AA winds up being required to continue the trust and the money is still in that trust how can it revert back to AA? As I recall the trust states that the sole purpose of the money within is to be used for retiree medical purposes only. Do you have the language that stipulates the return of those funds to AA if we opted out? Is the language, "upon the successful resolution of the 1114 process" in the APA and APFA agreements as well?

Can a stipulation exist where if the fund is not dissolved that the money contained may not be returned to active employees until they either resign or retire from the company?

 

[AANOTOK]

I agree 100% with you Bob, "upon successful resolution of the 1114 process", what that means has always and still is the million dollar question. As much as NYer and Realityck like to say we will get our match back, No one including those two have ever defined exactly what that means. In my personal opinion, it is written much like a contract to where it's a grey area and it can be interpreted to the benefit of the company, or at best case a negotiable item. Either way, we come out with the short end of the stick!

 

[AANYER]

Realityck and NYer,
 
I'm happy for the retirees, However, we the current employees will be screwed.  The convoluted statement, "successful completion of the 1114 case", more than likely meant a favorable outcome for the company.  The judges ruling does not favor the company.  They will owe the retirees in excess of $1,000,000,000 dollars.  That's 1 billion if you don't get all the zeros.  Our prefunding match is going poof right now.
 
Please hurry up and get the AMFA cards signed.  We are dying a slow death and it's painful.

 

[AANOTOK]

"However, American never filed a Section 1114 motion covering retiree benefits. Instead, it simply asked the judge to rule that it wasn’t bound to keep paying retiree insurance premiums."
 
If this is in fact true from the DMN and Terry Maxon...
 
...and AA never even filed a section 1114, what in the heck or we waiting on? Shouldn't the TWU be up in arms
demanding our match NOW! And, isn't this something the union and their lawyers should have known. All we have been told is "upon successful resolution of the 1114 process" and yet either they knew or should have known that one was never filed during BK.
 
We have been out of BK for sometime, section 1114 was never filed, yet those two have been the excuse from the union for the members not receiving the match by now. Something is not adding up here. And so NYer, your theory of the Judges 1114 ruling and the equity holds no water.

 

[AANYER]

AANOYOK,
 
You hit the nail on the head, It appears that AA never filed a 1114 in BK court, therefore, we may be here in perpetuity hoping for the matching funds until we are all dead.  What a slick move!  Once again it appears that the TWU and their phony lawyers and accountants had no clue as to what AA was doing in court.  The TWU appointed ones are brain dead.

 

[Bob Owens]

Here's a question that should be considered though. If AA winds up being required to continue the trust and the money is still in that trust how can it revert back to AA? As I recall the trust states that the sole purpose of the money within is to be used for retiree medical purposes only. Do you have the language that stipulates the return of those funds to AA if we opted out? Is the language, "upon the successful resolution of the 1114 process" in the APA and APFA agreements as well?

Can a stipulation exist where if the fund is not dissolved that the money contained may not be returned to active employees until they either resign or retire from the company?

I don't follow. Why would they be required to continue the trust? The Trust is there to pay the benefits, retirees aren't suing to continue the trust they are suing for their benefits which they paid for. 
 
I don't know whats in the other agreement nor do i know what the APFA or APA trust agreement or contract says and I don't recall referencing either of them. 
 
IIRC the language is either in the plan or an attached LOA explaining it.  It says that if we opt out we get what we put in, plus gains, and the company keeps the matching funds. It also describes how when you retire the funds are reverted back to the company, if you retire at 55 10% of your contributions each year but 100% of the match on day 1.  
 
The Trust agreement isn't clear exactly what the Union does with the company match, only that if the company opts out, the company does not get it. 

 

[AANOTOK]

"However, American never filed a Section 1114 motion covering retiree benefits. Instead, it simply asked the judge to rule that it wasn’t bound to keep paying retiree insurance premiums."
 
If this is in fact true from the DMN and Terry Maxon...
 
...and AA never even filed a section 1114, what in the heck or we waiting on? Shouldn't the TWU be up in arms
demanding our match NOW! And, isn't this something the union and their lawyers should have known. All we have been told is "upon successful resolution of the 1114 process" and yet either they knew or should have known that one was never filed during BK.
 
We have been out of BK for sometime, section 1114 was never filed, yet those two have been the excuse from the union for the members not receiving the match by now. Something is not adding up here. And so NYer, your theory of the Judges 1114 ruling and the equity holds no water.

NYer, Realityck...where are your answers/explanations to this development. Did the union know? How can you have a "successful resolution of the 1114 process" if it was never filed. It's my understanding that a section 1114 motion can no longer be filed. Why isn't the TWU beating down the door for the match?

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

The Bottom Line Questions?​

 
 
1.  Are we going to get the match money?
 
2. Is the TWU going to get an answer from AA one way or the other?
 
3. Will AA tell us, Yes or NO?
 
4. Is this just the beginning of a long drawn out court case to keep us from the money so that the company can make more interest from that money?
 
5. If we are not going to get the match money, are we entitled to the interest earned on that money since we got our pre-fund/interest/earnings checks?
 
6. Is this just another way AA has found to disappoint its employees both union and non-union?

 

[screwed again]

 

The Bottom Line Questions?​

 
 
1.  Are we going to get the match money?
 
2. Is the TWU going to get an answer from AA one way or the other?
 
3. Will AA tell us, Yes or NO?
 
4. Is this just the beginning of a long drawn out court case to keep us from the money so that the company can make more interest from that money?
 
5. If we are not going to get the match money, are we entitled to the interest earned on that money since we got our pre-fund/interest/earnings checks?
 
6. Is this just another way AA has found to disappoint its employees both union and non-union?
 

Come on. You knew the answers to those questions as you were writing them.                  Half empty! Always half empty!

 

[Realityck]

AANOYOK,
 
You hit the nail on the head, It appears that AA never filed a 1114 in BK court, therefore, we may be here in perpetuity hoping for the matching funds until we are all dead.  What a slick move!  Once again it appears that the TWU and their phony lawyers and accountants had no clue as to what AA was doing in court.  The TWU appointed ones are brain dead.
 
 
Please read the Court’s opinion. It states “Before the Court is the plaintiff’s motion seeking summary judgment on whether the benefits are vested. The Motion is opposed by the Section 1114 Committee of Retired Employees (the Defendant), which was appointed in the above captioned bankruptcy proceeding under Section 1114 (c) and (d) of the Bankruptcy Code to represent the individuals receiving retiree benefits from the Debtor. Under Section 1114 (B) 2 of the Bankruptcy Code the Defendant has the power to protect the rights of these retirees under the Bankruptcy Code with respect to their retiree health and welfare benefits.” This was, then, a proceeding under Section 1114.
 
This does not mean that the TWU and APFA ( which has the same language in its contract as the TWU) should not file for arbitration, although the case would be stronger once it is clear there are no longer pending 1114 proceedings. 

 

[Rogallo]

 

AANOYOK,
 
You hit the nail on the head, It appears that AA never filed a 1114 in BK court, therefore, we may be here in perpetuity hoping for the matching funds until we are all dead.  What a slick move!  Once again it appears that the TWU and their phony lawyers and accountants had no clue as to what AA was doing in court.  The TWU appointed ones are brain dead.
 
 
Please read the Court’s opinion. It states “Before the Court is the plaintiff’s motion seeking summary judgment on whether the benefits are vested. The Motion is opposed by the Section 1114 Committee of Retired Employees (the Defendant), which was appointed in the above captioned bankruptcy proceeding under Section 1114 (c) and (d) of the Bankruptcy Code to represent the individuals receiving retiree benefits from the Debtor. Under Section 1114 ( B) 2 of the Bankruptcy Code the Defendant has the power to protect the rights of these retirees under the Bankruptcy Code with respect to their retiree health and welfare benefits.” This was, then, a proceeding under Section 1114.
 
This does not mean that the TWU and APFA ( which has the same language in its contract as the TWU) should not file for arbitration, although the case would be stronger once it is clear there are no longer pending 1114 proceedings. 

 

Put Response Here!

 

[NYer]

NYer, Realityck...where are your answers/explanations to this development. Did the union know? How can you have a "successful resolution of the 1114 process" if it was never filed. It's my understanding that a section 1114 motion can no longer be filed. Why isn't the TWU beating down the door for the match?

 
The 1114 is specifically for the modifications to the retiree benefits, which was pushed into an Adversarial Proceeding under the jurisdiction of the Court and under the AMR bankruptcy. The goal of using the 1114 is intact as the Plan of Reorganization is contains, in writing, the Company's intent to pursue the modification of retiree benefits.
 
The language which would trigger the match contains the words, "successful resolution" and it has been the TWU (and now the APFA's position) that the Match has already been earned by the active employees. They payment of that would take place once the Trust has been able to be opened in order to get access to the funds.
 
Today, we continue to wait for the issue of the retiree benefits to be resolved one way or another with the Judge, more than anything else, holding the issue in limbo until the release of his decision.
 
If the Company decides to continue to pursue the issue, this may very well be the beginning of the process instead of the end.

 

[NYer]

 

The Bottom Line Questions?​

 
 
1.  Are we going to get the match money? ...Eventually
 
2. Is the TWU going to get an answer from AA one way or the other? ...They must first decide if they will continue with their pursuit of modification to the retiree benefits.
 
 
4. Is this just the beginning of a long drawn out court case to keep us from the money so that the company can make more interest from that money? ...This process is about ALL retiree benefits and not just retiree medical (which is a fraction of their liability).