Company Match of Prefunding Refund

[Just the facts]

Ruling appears to be posted on Judge Lane's website, but I can't make heads or tails of all the legal mumbo jumbo. Need someone smarter than me to read thru it.

My impression is that retirees are vested and AA lost.

 

[IORFA]

Sounds like it was a request for summary judgement. If so, does that mean that the 1114 trial can now start? I'm cornfused as well.

 

[AANYER]

Summary of Judge Lane's decision, I believe that the existing employees are screwed like I thought was going to happen. Thanks once again TWU for the screwing.

"U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane ruled Friday that he denied part of American Airlines request for summary judgment on the issue of retiree health benefits and approved part of the request.

A representative of the retirees committee said the retirees prevailed almost across the board. The groups where the court granted AMR summary judgment are very small and many, if not most of the individuals in those groups, are in other groups where the court refused to grant summary judgment.

American had sought a ruling that it was free to change the health plans in which it helps pay the premiums for retirees. If allowed, American said it would require retirees who wanted to keep the benefits to pay all of the premiums.

We thank Judge Lane for his thoughtful consideration of the issues, American spokesman Casey Norton said. American will review his ruling and consider next steps related to the retiree health and life insurance benefits. We always remain open to productive discussions to finally resolve this matter.

Were only now starting to read the 49-page opinion. Well update as we understand it better.

The judge wrote that the question was whether promises made to provide the benefits had been promised in way that they were vested and couldnt be unilaterally changed."

 

[NYer]

Basically, the Judge ruled that most of the retiree's under a union CBA have their retiree benefits "vested" and the Company cannot unilaterally make modifications. For most non-union groups and depending under what program they retired under the retiree's are subject to changes made unilaterally by the airline.
 
Now the Company will have to proceed in an Adversarial Proceeding (and 1114 is no longer viable since the exit from bankruptcy) if they are to modify any of the retiree medical for the current retiree's.
 
This is the beginning of the process unless the Company just gives up on their pursuit to modify the benefits.

 

[700UW]

They certainly can use Section 1114, they didnt end that process when they exited Chapter 11.

 

[NYer]

They certainly can use Section 1114, they didnt end that process when they exited Chapter 11.

 
The 1114 is a part of the bankruptcy process from which they exited. In order to make further modifications it would need to be done in an "Adversarial Proceeding" under the same Judge and Court but using a different avenue.

 

[700UW]

Go look it up, 1114 wasn't settled and look at US' case there was still proceedings going on after the exit.

 

[AANYER]

As I said, it appears that the retirees will be ok. However, the current employees who had they prefunding ended by the company will be the biggest losers. Lastly, it appears that we will not get our matching funds.

 

[AANOTOK]

Congrats to the retiree's for prevailing (if indeed that's the case). Sorry corporate America will do any and everything to get out of their obligations.
Unfortunately, I do believe we (current employees) will be the ultimate losers in the mess. We have already lost our retiree medical, and now I do believe AA will find a loophole to keep from paying the match. IMHO

 

[NYer]

Go look it up, 1114 wasn't settled and look at US' case there was still proceedings going on after the exit.

 
The proceedings after exit are called Adversarial Proceedings, but it cannot be the 1114 because the Plan or Reorganization has been approved. Anything that lingers after the exit gets taken care of in a different process. For instance, the issue with the US Airways pilots is also another Adversarial Proceeding in Judge Lanes' Court under the AA BK.

 

[NYer]

As I said, it appears that the retirees will be ok. However, the current employees who had they prefunding ended by the company will be the biggest losers. Lastly, it appears that we will not get our matching funds.

 
What makes you believe the retiree's will be OK? This doesn't necessarily end the process, it could very well just be the beginning.
 
All the Judge decided today is that the airline can't unilaterally modify the retiree benefits, but the case is still pending and could be argued in Court, if the airline decides to pursue it. (very likely)

 

[AANYER]

NYer,
 
Good Luck, I see that you are trying to salvage the TWU's non existent image.  Good luck to you and all the other sheep.  The TWU has damaged it's members in an irreparable manner.  We suggest that you fold your tent, the TWU is on it's way to a slow and steady death. The pilot's negotiated 16% in their 401k without adding a penny, the flight attendants receive another 9%.  Each of these class unions has come to an agreement on which union will represent them.  However, Jim Little and his ignorant self, said he personally negotiated the sick deal that we now have, 5.5% match to TWU members, when they contribute at least as much.
 
Let's see what the TWU trolls would say, "Your out of line brother" or better yet, "They can do that brother".  The TWU has not taken responsibility for all of the harm that they have done to all of us.
 
I want to raise another point.  Why in the world would we at AA want to deal with the two headed snake of the TWU/IAM association.  I see mask confusion for years to come with no amalgamated deal betwixt and between the American and or US Air Maintenance work groups.  People, please take the time to read and see whats going on at the other industrial union over at United Airlines/Continental.  There has been no deal for the Aircraft Maintenance group for several years now, never mind that the IBT represents the same Craft and Class.  Go figure.
 
 
 
 
AMFA now more than ever

 

[Realityck]

Summary of Judge Lane's decision, I believe that the existing employees are screwed like I thought was going to happen. Thanks once again TWU for the screwing.

"U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane ruled Friday that he denied part of American Airlines request for summary judgment on the issue of retiree health benefits and approved part of the request.

A representative of the retirees committee said the retirees prevailed almost across the board. The groups where the court granted AMR summary judgment are very small and many, if not most of the individuals in those groups, are in other groups where the court refused to grant summary judgment.

American had sought a ruling that it was free to change the health plans in which it helps pay the premiums for retirees. If allowed, American said it would require retirees who wanted to keep the benefits to pay all of the premiums.

We thank Judge Lane for his thoughtful consideration of the issues, American spokesman Casey Norton said. American will review his ruling and consider next steps related to the retiree health and life insurance benefits. We always remain open to productive discussions to finally resolve this matter.

Were only now starting to read the 49-page opinion. Well update as we understand it better.

The judge wrote that the question was whether promises made to provide the benefits had been promised in way that they were vested and couldnt be unilaterally changed."
 
 
 
 
The retirees, with the help of all of the unions they once belonged to, have defeated the Company’s motion for summary judgment (judgment without a trial) to deny them their medical benefits. The position of the Retiree Committees of the unions –APA, APFA, and TWU—was the same on this issue, which was that the Company was not entitled to this relief. This ruling, which should be supported by anybody who believes in collective bargaining, is your basis for saying the TWU is screwing their members. In other words, the TWU (and the other unions) screwed you because it helped the retirees. While I support the retirees, the vesting issue is not resolved. The judge has simply ruled that there needs to a trial on whether, under the APA, APFA, and TWU collective bargaining agreements, retiree medical benefits vest upon retirement.
 
As I suggested, the judge had no jurisdiction over whether you are entitled to the Company’s prefunding match and, as I anticipated, nothing in the opinion deals with that issue.  In fact, the judge specifically stated that prefunding wasn’t relevant to his decision.  The issue of the return of the prefunding match will be decided in arbitration once the 1114 process is concluded and, while I cannot predict what any arbitrator will do, so long as the process concludes and the Company does not return to bankruptcy I believe the employees should and will be entitled to the prefunding match. The flight attendants are in exactly the same position as we are in relation to the prefunding match.

 

[AANYER]

Realityck & NYer,
 
Just in case you didn't read the writing on the wall.  See it below. We're "doneski"
American Airlines ordered to pay retiree benefits despite bankruptcy
 
By KYLE ARNOLD World Business Writer
 
American Airlines will have to pay benefits to 40,000 company retirees, benefits the company tried to sever during bankruptcy, a federal judge ruled Friday.
Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane denied a request to give American Airlines summary judgment in the case to sever health and life insurance benefits. 

American Airlines wanted to make retirees pay for ongoing health and life insurance benefits.


“But for reasons set forth below, with limited exceptions, the Court denies the Motion because the relevant documents contain language reasonably susceptible to interpretation as a promise to vest benefits and lack language categorically reserving the Plaintiffs’ right to terminate their contributions to the retiree benefits,” Lane wrote.


Friday’s ruling doesn’t’ mean the case is completely settled, since American Airlines can either take the case to full trial.


American Airlines fought viciously over its two year bankruptcy case, starting in Nov. 2011, to reduce labor costs and make the airline more profitable.


The case ended officially in December with American Airlines’ merger with US Airways, but Lane still had to settle a handful of issues, including the retiree benefits issue.


Essentially, Lane said that prior collective bargaining agreements, as well as pre-payments by employees, showed that American Airlines had promised lifetime benefits to retirees.


Current American Airlines employees did settle on a restructured benefits program, which froze pensions and transitioned workers to a 401(k). Current employees are not granted any medical or dental benefits when they retire.

 

[AANOTOK]

 

Summary of Judge Lane's decision, I believe that the existing employees are screwed like I thought was going to happen. Thanks once again TWU for the screwing.

"U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane ruled Friday that he denied part of American Airlines request for summary judgment on the issue of retiree health benefits and approved part of the request.

A representative of the retirees committee said the retirees prevailed almost across the board. The groups where the court granted AMR summary judgment are very small and many, if not most of the individuals in those groups, are in other groups where the court refused to grant summary judgment.

American had sought a ruling that it was free to change the health plans in which it helps pay the premiums for retirees. If allowed, American said it would require retirees who wanted to keep the benefits to pay all of the premiums.

We thank Judge Lane for his thoughtful consideration of the issues, American spokesman Casey Norton said. American will review his ruling and consider next steps related to the retiree health and life insurance benefits. We always remain open to productive discussions to finally resolve this matter.

Were only now starting to read the 49-page opinion. Well update as we understand it better.

The judge wrote that the question was whether promises made to provide the benefits had been promised in way that they were vested and couldnt be unilaterally changed."
 
 
 
 
The retirees, with the help of all of the unions they once belonged to, have defeated the Company’s motion for summary judgment (judgment without a trial) to deny them their medical benefits. The position of the Retiree Committees of the unions –APA, APFA, and TWU—was the same on this issue, which was that the Company was not entitled to this relief. This ruling, which should be supported by anybody who believes in collective bargaining, is your basis for saying the TWU is screwing their members. In other words, the TWU (and the other unions) screwed you because it helped the retirees. While I support the retirees, the vesting issue is not resolved. The judge has simply ruled that there needs to a trial on whether, under the APA, APFA, and TWU collective bargaining agreements, retiree medical benefits vest upon retirement.
 
As I suggested, the judge had no jurisdiction over whether you are entitled to the Company’s prefunding match and, as I anticipated, nothing in the opinion deals with that issue.  In fact, the judge specifically stated that prefunding wasn’t relevant to his decision.  The issue of the return of the prefunding match will be decided in arbitration once the 1114 process is concluded and, while I cannot predict what any arbitrator will do, so long as the process concludes and the Company does not return to bankruptcy I believe the employees should and will be entitled to the prefunding match. The flight attendants are in exactly the same position as we are in relation to the prefunding match.

 

So now it will be decided by an arbitrator...Since when did AA say they were not going to pay the match back and we need to have it arbitrated. I thought the letter you showed from 2003 was pretty clear legality wise. AA owes it, its ours, and we will get it. Things change daily....