Company Happy With 1st Airbus.

[2BorNot2B]

AOG-N-T & DellDude;

Thanks You both for your educational posts on page 3. I hope everyone read them. A clear example of how important it is to explain terminology that is common to you but uncommon to others, when making a post. Like something as simple as v1-vr-v2. Simple to me but foreign to many others. I will remember the lesson! Thanks!

Good Luck to us all!

2b

 

[AOG-N-IT]

AOG-N-T & DellDude;

Thanks You both for your educational posts on page 3. I hope everyone read them. A clear example of how important it is to explain terminology that is common to you but uncommon to others, when making a post. Like something as simple as v1-vr-v2. Simple to me but foreign to many others. I will remember the lesson! Thanks!

Good Luck to us all!

2b

2B,

Glad to be of help....and to the naysayers whom choose to dispute the facts of the matter. We equally offer you the chance to show proof of anything said about Acft 700UW's post S-Check issues being fabricated. Pardon , if we don't hold our breath waiting on your stream of lies , that you use to dispute facts. denial is just that , denial.

I only wish the ALPA represented Pilots whom flew that plane during those 3 days were posters here..I do believe that would set the record straight , and remove any stigma of these facts being an IAM "agenda" in nature...nothing could be farther from the truth.

The simple facts are this. 700UW departed revenued service for it required S-Check in a very safe and reliable state of being. Upon it's return to U and revenued service..it had three consecutive days of flawed function , some which led to declared emergency landings...multiple Air Taxi's (3) with parts and mechanics to get the aircraft into a safe and reliable operating configuration....and lastly it took 3 added days in CLT in a non-profit generating state to be "De-Bugged " of ST Mobile Aerospaces so-called handy work.

I defy anyone to show any degree of proof to the contrary. Thousands in CLT know exactly where that plane was..and what was taking place with it. The leaders of the local IAM even made a special trip to the CLT "Line Hangar" to pause and laugh about this....sadly when it comes to profit making , it's not a laughing matter....and again , Safety and Profits are supposed to be what WE as a company are all about....not Profits at the expense of Safety.

700UW is now as safe an aircraft as money can buy..thanks to the efforts of the IAM represented mechanics in CLT and RIC respectively. I salute all of those whom were involved in rectifying this problem....and I frown on those whom desire to ignore the truth of what took place during those 6 days of negative yield contributions.

We need to insure that the words "I will be sure always" becomes the mantra...not "anything to save a buck". "Anything" is a very far reaching word that opens Pandora's Box for more of the same....That is , if it's not stopped before it can be started again?

 

[mr peabody]

700UW:
I was just kidding about the licensed mechanics working at STS. I agree with you 100%, anyone who has ever been around contract maintenance especially overhaul facilites knows that the majority of mechanics are NOT licensed but their work is bought off buy a licensed mechanic. In many cases if the licensed mechanic is not willing to buy off the work of the unlicensed mechanic, the contractor finds one who will!!! I have been unable to locate the exact percentage of licensed mechanics STS has one the property..........I wonder why the company does not release that info???????

A&P TECH to answer your querry about singapore techs. man power. per the faa web site current employee figures are CERTIFIED 532, REPAIRMAN 74 NON-CERTIFIED 1173. av-info.faa.gov/repairstation.asp what exactly is considered non-certified i'm not sure,but from my own experience working for a3rd party mtx provider includes painters,parts and cleaners.but our ratio is 10 certified for every 1 non.oh yeah and by the way for those of you think union mtx is superior i beg to differ we are far more efficient,spend less for parts, down less days and are scrutinized by the faa more than you can imagine.not only the carriers pmi but our local fisdo boys as well.and no the a/c does not get released until it is 100% complete. no mels no cdl no deferrals,and a customer pilot check flight that puts the airframe through its paces, stalls ,missed approach,flight surfaces,gear down gear up etc etc etc .most customer pilots #### because it will take them more than once around the pattern and they might time out and have to spend the night. i tell shut up and have funbeat the plane up , its not every day they can fly like fighters jocks or bush pilots ..........................regards peabody.

 

[TDR1502C]

A&P TECH to answer your querry about singapore techs. man power. per the faa web site current employee figures are CERTIFIED 532, REPAIRMAN 74 NON-CERTIFIED 1173. av-info.faa.gov/repairstation.asp what exactly is considered non-certified i'm not sure,but from my own experience working for a3rd party mtx provider includes painters,parts and cleaners.but our ratio is 10 certified for every 1 non.oh yeah and by the way for those of you think union mtx is superior i beg to differ we are far more efficient,spend less for parts, down less days and are scrutinized by the faa more than you can imagine.not only the carriers pmi but our local fisdo boys as well.and no the a/c does not get released until it is 100% complete. no mels no cdl no deferrals,and a customer pilot check flight that puts the airframe through its paces, stalls ,missed approach,flight surfaces,gear down gear up etc etc etc .most customer pilots #### because it will take them more than once around the pattern and they might time out and have to spend the night. i tell shut up and have funbeat the plane up , its not every day they can fly like fighters jocks or bush pilots ..........................regards peabody.

"no the a/c does not get released until it is 100% complete. no mels no cdl no deferrals,and a customer pilot check flight that puts the airframe through its paces, stalls ,missed approach,flight surfaces,gear down gear up etc etc etc "

BS. And thanks for the overtime for fixing the just-out-of-farmout-check problems. If your outfit was so sharp and efficient, why doesn't the company return the airplane to you to correct the problems, instead of letting the union grunts work them?

By the way, which carrier has just a "pmi" scrutinizing? Sounds fishy, like you know some terminology but not the context. Care to try again?

 

[High Iron]

A&P TECH to answer your querry about singapore techs. man power. per the faa web site current employee figures are CERTIFIED 532, REPAIRMAN 74 NON-CERTIFIED 1173. av-info.faa.gov/repairstation.asp what exactly is considered non-certified i'm not sure,but from my own experience working for a3rd party mtx provider includes painters,parts and cleaners.but our ratio is 10 certified for every 1 non.oh yeah and by the way for those of you think union mtx is superior i beg to differ we are far more efficient,spend less for parts, down less days and are scrutinized by the faa more than you can imagine.not only the carriers pmi but our local fisdo boys as well.and no the a/c does not get released until it is 100% complete. no mels no cdl no deferrals,and a customer pilot check flight that puts the airframe through its paces, stalls ,missed approach,flight surfaces,gear down gear up etc etc etc .most customer pilots #### because it will take them more than once around the pattern and they might time out and have to spend the night. i tell shut up and have funbeat the plane up , its not every day they can fly like fighters jocks or bush pilots ..........................regards peabody.

"no the a/c does not get released until it is 100% complete. no mels no cdl no deferrals,and a customer pilot check flight that puts the airframe through its paces, stalls ,missed approach,flight surfaces,gear down gear up etc etc etc "

BS. And thanks for the overtime for fixing the just-out-of-farmout-check problems. If your outfit was so sharp and efficient, why doesn't the company return the airplane to you to correct the problems, instead of letting the union grunts work them?

By the way, which carrier has just a "pmi" scrutinizing? Sounds fishy, like you know some terminology but not the context. Care to try again?

Zing! Good eye TDR1502C.

By the way, which carrier has just a "pmi" scrutinizing? Sounds fishy, like you know some terminology but not the context. Care to try again?

Bingo! Too funny. The poor delivery was just the icing on the cake. Failed the troll BITE check. Seeing the other post also seemed to verify this as well. Quite a contradiction in backgrounds and interests. Very fishy indeed.

 

[usfliboi]

Yawn

 

[deltawatch]

Im a CWA member and I was asking questions of an IAM local president the other day. I ask him if Southwest outsourced heavy, he replied "all of it". Who does their work? Why are they not having the same problem? Im not trying to make a statment, this is just a STUPID question....

 

[delldude]

700UW:
I was just kidding about the licensed mechanics working at STS. I agree with you 100%, anyone who has ever been around contract maintenance especially overhaul facilites knows that the majority of mechanics are NOT licensed but their work is bought off buy a licensed mechanic. In many cases if the licensed mechanic is not willing to buy off the work of the unlicensed mechanic, the contractor finds one who will!!! I have been unable to locate the exact percentage of licensed mechanics STS has one the property..........I wonder why the company does not release that info???????

A&P TECH to answer your querry about singapore techs. man power. per the faa web site current employee figures are CERTIFIED 532, REPAIRMAN 74 NON-CERTIFIED 1173. av-info.faa.gov/repairstation.asp what exactly is considered non-certified i'm not sure,but from my own experience working for a3rd party mtx provider includes painters,parts and cleaners.but our ratio is 10 certified for every 1 non.oh yeah and by the way for those of you think union mtx is superior i beg to differ we are far more efficient,spend less for parts, down less days and are scrutinized by the faa more than you can imagine.not only the carriers pmi but our local fisdo boys as well.and no the a/c does not get released until it is 100% complete. no mels no cdl no deferrals,and a customer pilot check flight that puts the airframe through its paces, stalls ,missed approach,flight surfaces,gear down gear up etc etc etc .most customer pilots #### because it will take them more than once around the pattern and they might time out and have to spend the night. i tell shut up and have funbeat the plane up , its not every day they can fly like fighters jocks or bush pilots ..........................regards peabody.

oh yeah and by the way for those of you think union mtx is superior i beg to differ we are far more efficient,spend less for parts, down less days and are scrutinized by the faa more than you can imagine
YOU CAN KISS MY BIG FAT WAGES AND BENEFITS ,DUDE!

 

[AOG-N-IT]

Im a CWA member and I was asking questions of an IAM local president the other day. I ask him if Southwest outsourced heavy, he replied "all of it". Who does their work? Why are they not having the same problem? Im not trying to make a statment, this is just a STUPID question....

deltawatch,

Unlike U and many of the others , UA , HP off the top of my head , WN has had a QA (Quality Assurance) Program built into their outsourcing base. This has been developed over the course of their history..and has paid off for them.

This is something U did not develope to any degree that would match what WN has historically done..or has in place. U is not the only airline to have problems in this regard. I have gotten alike comments forwarded to me by people at UA , HP and JM (Air Jamaica) as well. Most of these problems can be attributed to the drive enforced to meet schedules , lack of on hand parts...and most certainly "parent company observation" of the work in progress.

The comments about ALL of their (WN's) work being outsourced is not exactly true..and the current trend is for them to bring more and more of their work "In-House".

WN enjoys many cost benefits that the legacy carriers will never achieve without a total re-think of how we choose to do business. Hub and Spoke operations have their draw backs regarding turn times ..and employee productivity because of the nature of the operation. These are issues that Point to Point operations have little to no problems with.

WN also creates a greater dependence on "Internet Reservations" where U is more dependent on Reservation / Travel Agencies. These middle man out type functions aid their bottom line..yet trim the employment ranks from within and outside of a company like U or the other majors

The figures released of late show all the legacy carriers with the exception of CO losing money this quarter. U did lose the least amount in actual dollars...but when you take U's actual size compared to that of NW , AA , UA or DL...it all kinda balances out by scale.

WN also wins the war of finances by using a single fleet type that works for them..nor are they focused or distracted by Regional feeds and the financing to develope them....this may change down the road? , but to date it has not been a developmental draw of attention , finances or resources.

WN enjoys a benefit in operating an ALL Boeing Fleet that 99 times out of 100 , can be supported logistically from within the borders of the US. Imagine if you will the difference of having a need in DAL or BWI..and the support was as close as SEA , MCI or ATL as most Boeing support is. Then Imagine the need being in PIT , PHL or CLT...and the same type support has to come from Germany or France. Time , Distance , Transportation and Customs issues just kept the acft in need out of the revenued realm twice to three times as long. Then lets factor how that plays against the need/demand to gain greater utilization from our Acft. ? I'm sure you can see my point when we look at U Vs. WN in a head to head contest for cost.

I have stated many times...the Airbus purchase makes a hell of a one time splash on a spread sheet , for a "Bean Counter" or Fly-Through CEO to boast about...but when you look at things in terms of costs as a fleet ages....the Airbus proves to not be such a bargain when it's examined in OUR career length terms...or in real bang for the buck terms.

U cannot get out of it's own way for a few reasons...and employee wages and whom does our Acft Maintenance aren't either of them. We are victims of individual greed historically , short-sighted moves to benefit the select few...and a failure to see that our operation is too channeled/ narrow to compete with either the Big Airlines or the LCC's effectively. The Fleet diversity is something that still plagues us...and will for sometime yet to come. Training and Logistics alone with the fleet diversity we have eats us alive....something that WN sits back and laughs all the way to the bank at us for.

Lastly...and I know it's not a popular thing to say...our HUBS are simply too close together to be supporting a "mainline operation cost effectively" PIT is on it's own accord too costly year over year to board passengers...and yet be so close to another HUB 40 minutes east by air.

CLT would be an alike disaster if it were not for sound pay as you build financing that the locals had in place vs. what U and Allegheny County "speculated on" with Ed Colodny at the controls. CLT's saving grace is a low cost operation from a facilities standpoint , a much more moderate climate that does not warrant the cost of de-icing 1/10th as much as PIT tends to do...and lastly the CLT area is in an explosive growth mode..and has been since the mid 1980's

You can draw any conclussions you desire...but like Clinton said..."it's the economy stupid"....in our case "It's the Operation Stupid"....not the people whom make it work on a daily basis.

 

[700UW]

700UW:
I was just kidding about the licensed mechanics working at STS. I agree with you 100%, anyone who has ever been around contract maintenance especially overhaul facilites knows that the majority of mechanics are NOT licensed but their work is bought off buy a licensed mechanic. In many cases if the licensed mechanic is not willing to buy off the work of the unlicensed mechanic, the contractor finds one who will!!! I have been unable to locate the exact percentage of licensed mechanics STS has one the property..........I wonder why the company does not release that info???????

A&P TECH to answer your querry about singapore techs. man power. per the faa web site current employee figures are CERTIFIED 532, REPAIRMAN 74 NON-CERTIFIED 1173. av-info.faa.gov/repairstation.asp what exactly is considered non-certified i'm not sure,but from my own experience working for a3rd party mtx provider includes painters,parts and cleaners.but our ratio is 10 certified for every 1 non.oh yeah and by the way for those of you think union mtx is superior i beg to differ we are far more efficient,spend less for parts, down less days and are scrutinized by the faa more than you can imagine.not only the carriers pmi but our local fisdo boys as well.and no the a/c does not get released until it is 100% complete. no mels no cdl no deferrals,and a customer pilot check flight that puts the airframe through its paces, stalls ,missed approach,flight surfaces,gear down gear up etc etc etc .most customer pilots #### because it will take them more than once around the pattern and they might time out and have to spend the night. i tell shut up and have funbeat the plane up , its not every day they can fly like fighters jocks or bush pilots ..........................regards peabody.

I hate to burst your bubble, but I personally inspected the logbook when 700UW ferried back to US Airways and it had MELs on it.

And MAE also uses independant contractors who are not on their headcount, they also vendored out the seats and other interior work to other companies and how current is that data and what about independant contractors?

Lets look at the #s

Certificated Mechanics: 532
Repairmen: 74
Non-Certificated Mechanics: 1173
Total Employees: 1776

That is more then a 2 to 1 margin of UNLICENSED MECHANICS TO LICENSED MECHANICS, HMMMM>>>

 

[700UW]

Bob,

The sad thing is there was a US Airways Quality Assurance Foreman assinged to oversee the work at ST MAE@BFM.

 

[delldude]

Who really cares about the specifics of 700UW!

A-O-G was spot on in his assesment of why WN has been successful in the outsourcing area and conversely why US Airways customers (ME!) are in potential danger! Quality Control Policies & Procedures are in place and ENFORCED at WN and appear to be non existant at US.

I know virtually nothing about A/C repair except what AOG and others have taught me. BUT, I do know the outsourcing game very well from another industry and I will tell you point blank that unless you sit there with a whip and a chair, the outsourcing provider will cut EVERY corner they can and that goes back to exactly what AOG said regarding WN's success.

AOG was IMO right on on the rest of the post about working smarter not harder and the challenges ALL legacy carriers face. His assessment of why US is so deep in the financial soup is also extremely on point.

I know virtually nothing about A/C repair except what AOG and others have taught me. BUT, I do know the outsourcing game very well from another industry and I will tell you point blank that unless you sit there with a whip and a chair, the outsourcing provider will cut EVERY corner they can and that goes back to exactly what AOG said regarding WN's success.
may i have your undivided attention......
if you look at the figures,particularly the non-certified mechanics 1172
certified mechanics 532
about a 2.2 to 1 ratio...non-licensed to licensed.
per the federal aviation reg's a licensed mechanic can directly supervise non-licensed mechanics....now in an environment of a 13 day turnaround on an "s" check...wouldn't there be an excessive amount of attention to "getting this thing out the door?"
and can you see this is one way they will cut corners at any 3rd party maintenance facility?
put yourself in a licensed mechanics shoes at a non-union facility with some jack legged tyrant for a boss pushing like hell to get things done....do you think they let these licensed mech's sit around drinking coffee and watch the non's work?hell no,he's busting butt to get it out the door just like the non's are....only thing is he's putting his tickets on the line signing for the non-mechs work and his own.and the day comes when "the merde hits the ventilateur" good old licensed mech loses his "tickey" and his job.....
so do you think this guy in an environment like this actually has all the time in the world to "supervise" these unlicensed mech's???
and if you follow the nightly news after their excellent coverage of any air disaster...they usually mention in vivid detail as to how FAA has neither the time nor manpower to monitor 3rd party facilities as they should..
THANK YOU FOR FLYING US AIRWAYS!

 

[AP Tech]

Mr Peabody,
Thanks for providing the information on STS. I do beg to differ about your ratio though, the" 1173 non certified " vs "606 licensed and repairman" answers my question. The 1173 non certified can do the work of the licensed mechanic ander the repair station and a licensed mechanic signs off the work packet. I am sure STS has their share of cleaners, painters, stock clerks, ect, and in U's case many managment personnel. But those numbers tell me most of the work 2-1 is being done by unlicensed mechanics.

 

[High Iron]

Im a CWA member and I was asking questions of an IAM local president the other day. I ask him if Southwest outsourced heavy, he replied "all of it". Who does their work? Why are they not having the same problem? Im not trying to make a statment, this is just a STUPID question....

Southwest outsourced heavy, he replied "all of it".

He is incorrect, whether through ignorance or deceit. They perform heavy maint in Dallas. Added another structures line back in '02 ( for a total of 3 )

 

[AOG-N-IT]

Bob,

The sad thing is there was a US Airways Quality Assurance Foreman assinged to oversee the work at ST MAE@BFM.

I agree it's sad but there was no strict QA policies or guidelines for him/her to follow. So what you had was a prescription for failure which by all accounts is what happened. The QA process FAILED.

This is one tiny example of how WN beats the legacy carriers to the punch. They do things right once the first time! whether it's their people or ones they hire. It'a an attitude more than anything else IMO!

Bob,

This flaw was not a QA failure on U's part. We have a QA System that is second to none IMHO....but it's where the heart of the operation lives in both PIT and CLT in regards to heavy maintenance issues.....and of course the line maintenance has all the technical support it can ever ask for as well .

ST Mobile Aerospace is supposed to be a "Stand Alone , Start to Finish" low cost end all answer to the economic woes....and We did have a foreman present from PIT whom I have worked with...whom also had plenty of airbus time in TPA before it was closed.

U not having as much control as it enjoys in house is bad...but if Outsourcing is all that it's made out to be?...it has to be able , in real terms stand on its own two feet...and deliver the calibre of product that anyone should demand of a licensed FAA Repair station and the airline it's contracted to serve..anything short of that is no bargain..and nothing we need to be linked too..

1 foreman and maybe an inspector on duty cannot hold the hand of everyone working an Acft the size of an A319...nor should they. If the mechanics are qualified to be working this bird?..and a set program is deemed acceptable to the FAA...U should not have to provide hand holding baby sitters at every turn of a wrench. Doing so takes the value right out of what MAE is supposed to be providing...or what they are advertised to provide anyway.

Somewhere along the line...you took my praise of WN's Loooong Standing developement of their outsourcing QA as an opening to slam U for not mirroring this...or yet another chance to debate for debates sake?

U had no prior history with such a program ..54 years of in-house proves that, where WN was in that mode from almost day one , by not having the luxury of factory new aircraft when they started business. They had to make the adjustments for this..yet our leaders lied about outsourcing taking place at all until almost the moment that 700UW departed for Mobile Al....all the prep was in the shadows because of this.

ST Mobile Aerospace and EADS and a few others are designed and advertised to be the complete package from beginning to end....and our overseeing should be basically no more than insuring the I's are dotted..and the T's crossed on paper

I can assure that internally...our foreman are not baby-sitters or hand holders in house. Much of their work is purely administrative in nature...not looking over shoulders. We have Inspectors for that. Remember...all our people are veterans , qualified...and they completely respect the magnitude of the task...and what thier stamp on a completed task implies from a moral responsibility and legal standpoint.

Not knowing...and having learned what you have via the internet here, ...does not allow you the grasp of the circumstance to even argue this point with anyone whom has. I suggest you stop trying to read more into things...or get too deep into the analysis of what worked and what failed , when you lack the background to render such opinions or provide suggestions on the subject. I mean that in a most friendly manner.

Stick with what you have a first hand perspective of...and that's the customer service end....and what you see with your own two eyes. ..or the finances for that matter. Heck...I don't debate the issues the F/A's have...and I don't debate ALPA people unless they are trying to sell me down the river to benefit themselves..as a certain person tends to do here.

BTW...what proof do you have of WN doing everything once and right the first time? I have recall of a few things Herb Kelleher would have done differently according to him in the book "Nuts"...nobody is perfect...but Herb as been damn close...I'll give you both that !!