BYE BYE CHINA

[PHL]

Is this table still accurate? Because when I look at it and compare it with NW and CO I certainly see some differences. NW actually pays their A330 captains about the same and they had over $2B in losses.

What I don't get is why a widebody Captain or FO flying to Asia should get a different hourly pay rate than one flying to Europe? This doesn't appear to be the case at the other airlines, either.

I'm so tired of hearing about how much was given back in BK1, BK2, etc. because when john q public looks at the current pay rates, you'll get no sympathy. Let the airline expand, add the intl. cities and then negotiate that at your contract renewal. Or, stay status quo and watch your wages do the same.

And, by comparison:

Continental:

Northwest

 

[Crzipilot]

PHL, your kidding right???? Get the routes THEN negotiate??? No no no, if mgmt wants it, they will negotiate for it. Time and time again at this place, the carrot of growth is dangled, with a "we'll pay you back later" Well I think the general consensus is that later is now. Not just BK1/BK2, but also back in '98 and before. Even with NW being at 177/hr for the -500 that's a min. of 17,000 more per year than our 330 makes. AND that doesn't take into account other contractual differences that may exist, QOL and such which are quantified by the bean counters into $$$$$. CO, that'a $26k a year difference....

 

[PHL]

I'd like to have the numbers that CO was paying in the gloomier years to compare to now with US. But it's still apples and oranges.

The company wants to bring on some widebodies immediately to fly a single Asian route. From the outside looking in, I'm scratching my head as to why that requires a new agreement, more hourly pay, etc. if its adding more aircraft to the fleet, more crew positions, etc. which can only serve to benefit the company as a whole.

Would there be negotiation if the company bought more 330-300's for additional european flying?

 

[FWAAA]

What I don't get is why a widebody Captain or FO flying to Asia should get a different hourly pay rate than one flying to Europe? This doesn't appear to be the case at the other airlines, either.

In the abstract, I agree with you. But at many airlines, the same planes fly to Europe as fly to Asia (AA flies 777s to Europe, S America and Asia). Same at CO and DL. Except for the 747s, same thing at UA.

New airplane type with more seats generally calls for a new agreement with the pilots as higher pay rates for larger airplane is a proxy (imperfect as it may be) for productivity.

US has a grand plan to acquire a new fleet type consisting of only two or three airplanes specifically in an attempt to qualify for a new route authority to China. Pilots at most other airlines would demand a new pay rate - so I don't begrudge the US pilots on this one.

 

[SpinDoc]

ALPA isn't going to bite this time either. If he wants low cost then he's going to get low quality. Lowest paid equals lowest on time performance and customer satisfaction. And sooner or later the competition will have LCC for lunch.

When these cretins realize the most important asset of their company maybe this will change. Until then Parker and Kirby are just kids playing a game they cannot win.

pilot

Are you serious? It appears you'd rather be unemployed instead of having some possibility of long-term growth and stability. "I'll show those management types, yeah, I'll show them I mean business" These are the last words of a soon to be unemployed pilot. Lots 'O luck to you, my friend.

 

[jcw]

I'm glad you called me an idiot, its so refreshing. It really shows class just like management shows class. Instead of both sides taking to brinkmanship maybe someone should make an offer. Although I forgot, this management is so bad, they are fools to try to expand the airline

 

[Bear96]

What I don't get is why a widebody Captain or FO flying to Asia should get a different hourly pay rate than one flying to Europe? This doesn't appear to be the case at the other airlines, either.

Lots of (most?) airlines have different rates depending on destination -- for example, crews are generally paid more per hour to go from (say) PHL to LGW than PHL to LAX on the same equipment. Having a higher pay rate or some sort of "override" for international legs is very common. I agree it doesn't make sense though.

 

[Atlantic]

JCW,
Let me be the second to throw out the "idiot".

 

[Busdrvr]

Are you serious? It appears you'd rather be unemployed instead of having some possibility of long-term growth and stability. "I'll show those management types, yeah, I'll show them I mean business" These are the last words of a soon to be unemployed pilot. Lots 'O luck to you, my friend.

Wow, great idea!! By your logic, they should slash all the pilot rates to $10 an hour. Think of the growth and stability that'd bring...

This isn't the pilots first rodeo. They are part of a Union and that union represents them in all discussions concerning pay. What they make is, frankly, none of your F***ing business. If you are another employee, your business is how much you make. If you are a customer, your business is how much your ticket costs. If you think it's too expensive, don't buy it. If you are another employee, and REALLY want the China routes, then call your union and ask them to lower YOUR pay to make up the differance and stay out of the other work groups business.

And just to be clear, I'm not a U pilot.

Why do pilots flying international flights in bigger equipment get paid more and get overrides? Simply put, the bigger the airplane, the higher the revenue, so the company can better afford to pay higher rates on bigger equipment. This also benefits the company. By having higher rates for the big jets, the company can typically negotiate lower rates for NB aircraft under the notion that the pilots will make up the differance when they get seniority and advance to WB AC. Additionally, if you think flying long haul international doesn't take it out of you, you've never flown long haul. My most exhausting months flying were the ones with 100 hours consisting of 6 16 flight hour days. It's tough. It warrents overides. There are additional liability issues to consider also for those that fly into other countries.

JCM, Atlantic is on to something....his evaluation of you is spot on.

 

[ClueByFour]

Are you serious? It appears you'd rather be unemployed instead of having some possibility of long-term growth and stability. "I'll show those management types, yeah, I'll show them I mean business" These are the last words of a soon to be unemployed pilot. Lots 'O luck to you, my friend.

Bargaining, mi amigo. And one cannot blame ALPA for it. Management has been jerking the pilot group around left and right (and, in point of fact, trying to get an LOA for the China equipment without even an economic proposal having been passed for a combined contract is evidence of this).

DoUgI loves to point out that one gets what one has negotiated. Now it comes time to negotiate. I've said all along that Tempe cannot run an airline absent the advantages presented by bankruptcy. ALPA is going to help prove it (unless the weak sisters in the east rise up and try to grab those extra 6 widebody seats).

ALPA would be foolish to not use this as a huge club--particularly since AA has recently proven that the odds or any carrier getting the DOT to award them a frequency without an agreement with it's pilots on the route are slim/none.

 

[Phoenix]

Is this table still accurate? Because when I look at it and compare it with NW and CO I certainly see some differences. NW actually pays their A330 captains about the same and they had over $2B in losses.

What I don't get is why a widebody Captain or FO flying to Asia should get a different hourly pay rate than one flying to Europe? This doesn't appear to be the case at the other airlines, either.

I'm so tired of hearing about how much was given back in BK1, BK2, etc. because when john q public looks at the current pay rates, you'll get no sympathy...

Hi ya Sparky. ALPA didn't tell mngmnt to pound sand in order to win sympathy from john q public.