Big Airlines: Not Much Runway Left

[cavalier]

I agree.

Reason why: (IMHO, of course)
This "improving" economy doesn't seem to be creating any real jobs. Now before those who think Bush is the end all and the be all get your knickers in a twist, I am well aware that the "Jobs Numbers" have been better the past couple of months.

However, has anyone noticed that the administration has been studiously avoiding talking about the quality of those jobs? The jobs that were lost had titles like accountant, computer programmer, marketing rep. The jobs being created have titles like cashier, sales clerk, stocker.

There is nothing wrong with a cashier job--all work has dignity--but if you bought your home based upon a computer programmer salary, it would seem to me that it would be hard to make the mortgage payment from a cashier income.

If you are working at Burger King for minimum wage to feed your kids, you have some mechanical skills, and an entry level a/c mechanic job at DFW is advertised at $11/hr (as a result of a strike), what would you do? Take the chance to double your income and maybe hold on to your home, or stand on principle and move to a homeless shelter?

I find myself less and less able to sit in judgement over the choices other people make. You see, I can afford principles. I'm not sure everyone else can.

Or you could have been one of the ones like myself who looked down the road and cleared all debt knowing what awaits the common man realizing that to survive one can't possibly carry a huge debt burden without going into personal bankruptcy.

Anyone that can breathe and chew gum knew U's destiny was not all peaches and cream where you could hang your hat for life, and the ones who did do this are also the few who will submit until they, like U, finally dies.

 

[700UW]

What happens is the judge will order the company and union to sit down and negotiate under section 1113, usually about 60 days, the judge may impose an emergency temporary 1114 motion ie. UAL 14% paycut on the mechanic and related, but they usually wont change any scope language.

From Sharon Levin Bankruptcy attorney:
Levine also went over all the procedures and steps in the bankruptcy codes. One item she covered in depth is the 1113 letter, which refers to the section of code that ensures that a company negotiates with the union before they seek abrogation of the labor agreement. When a company seeks protection, the agreement remains in effect. When a union negotiates an 1113 letter it secures an agreement with the company showing that the company will not seek further cuts from labor. To this date, no company that has had an 1113 letter negotiated has ever asked the court to abrogate it.

Companies that request abrogation of the labor agreement but it must meet the following nine (9) distinct requirements:

1. The debtor in possession must have made a proposal to the union.
2. The proposal must be based upon the most complete and reliable information available at the time of the proposal.
3. The modification must be necessary to permit reorganization.
4. The modification must provide that all affected parties be treated fairly and equitably.
5. The debtor must provide the union with such relevant information as is necessary to evaluate the proposal.
6. The debtor must have met with the collective bargaining representative at the reasonable times subsequent to making the proposal.
7. The debtor must have negotiated with the union concerning the proposal in good faith.
8. The union must have refused to accept the proposal with good cause.
9. The balance of the equities must clearly favor rejection of the agreement.

Back to me:
If no agreement is reached the company will seek an abrogation, but they have to file exact contract terms that they seek, they cannot change it at will as it becomes the new labor agreement which the judge can only rule yes or no on the abrogation, he cannot impose his own terms, he only enacts what the company files in their motion if he feels no agreement can be reached between the company and the union.

For example, UAL file to have their retirees medical payments changed in an 1114 motion, the judge rejected it and ordered UAL to bargain in good faith with AFA, APLA and the IAM, which then both parties went back to the table and reached an agreement.

 

[cavalier]

I believe the people who scream the most to "just say no" are the people who have the most fear. Otherewise, why would they be so emotional?

In my case you would be dead wrong. I have zero debt and other skills and have had enough of this place to last ten life times and therefore will not give them one more red cent, period. I will move on with my life. I am not one bit scared and in fact looking forward to a refreshing change.

There is a doctor not far from the airport who told me he sees three or four patients daily that are all U employees and they ALL have stress related problems. So given that fact what more of a price must we pay the piper.

I feel with management taking our BUS work, creating havoc with punitive policies, and basically making life hell via tyrannical management, I feel that is more than enough of a price to pay WITHOUT submitting more with my pocket book. Apparently the union leadership so far feels the exact same way being they have yet to see their way to even talking seriously to management about more give backs

 

[700UW]

I believe the people who scream the most to "just say no" are the people who have the most fear. Otherewise, why would they be so emotional?

Everybody understands the CASM problem for every network carrier and the Business Week article that started this thread accurately describes the industry meltdown.

If the naysayers were not so scared and so fearful, they would not be screaming so loud on this message board. The issue is they likely have no other option to provide similar benefit to US Airways or they would have already taken that route and instead simply complain on this board.

They apparently cannot personally take or accept the proposed changes, thus they complain instead of finding a better presonal solution.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

What I can see is you are the ONLY SCARED one, everyone lives in reality and cant accept what is going on and what might happen.

You are the only one who acts like a scared person because you can't accept the facts that people are tired of this company and can stand up to them and not bendover like a coward like your union and yourself has done and will continue to do.

Just like you said when they went to terminate your DB, you said shut the company down, Dave sucks and you are gonna fly for a foriegn carrier, guess you don't have the intestinal fortitude to practice what you preach. All you try to do is impress people with your false information and try to scare and intimidate them into fear.

Which by the way is not working, we all see what you really are, a scared person.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

I believe the people who scream the most to "just say no" are the people who have the most fear. Otherewise, why would they be so emotional?

Everybody understands the CASM problem for every network carrier and the Business Week article that started this thread accurately describes the industry meltdown.

If the naysayers were not so scared and so fearful, they would not be screaming so loud on this message board. the issue is they likely have no other option or they would have taken that route and instead complain on this board. They apparently cannot personally take or accept the proposed changes, thus they instead complain instead of finding a better presonal solution.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

I love it when you use the "just say no" expression it makes me feel you are addressing your post directly at me.

Actually you are wrong about the "just say no" group, though some would seem to be emotional and probaby are, they are the rational ones.

Besides what wrong with being emotional about something you believe in?

In fact everyday that the senate and the house are in session there are hundreds of emotions flying around and they are making decisions on the future of this country.

I beg to disagree with you again, it would be the yeasayers that would be scared and screaming on this board, not the naysayers.

Why would naysayers, that are scared of losing their jobs, be posting on this board screaming to vote no and then on the other hand why would the yeasayers, that are scared of losing their jobs, be posting on this board to vote yes? I don't think I need to answer that question it is pretty obvious who is really scared.

And for disclosure reasons I have never told anyone how to vote, though my handle may convey that, you and others seem to want to tell everyone how to vote and if they don't agree to "then just quit".

Hey, I think I will call you guys the "then just quit" group.

"then just quit" group vs. the "just say no" group.

 

[jimntx]

Back to me:
If no agreement is reached the company will seek an abrogation, but they have to file exact contract terms that they seek, they cannot change it at will as it becomes the new labor agreement which the judge can only rule yes or no on the abrogation, he cannot impose his own terms, he only enacts what the company files in their motion if he feels no agreement can be reached between the company and the union.

For example, UAL file to have their retirees medical payments changed in an 1114 motion, the judge rejected it and ordered UAL to bargain in good faith with AFA, APLA and the IAM, which then both parties went back to the table and reached an agreement.

I think most of us know the legal procedures in bankruptcy. Lord knows, most of us at the legacy carriers have either been through it or been threatened with it over the past 3 years.

The problem, IMHO, is once the company abrogates the contract, gets a new contract with favorable terms, and emerges from bankruptcy--i.e., no longer under the watchful eye of the bankruptcy judge--how comfortable do you feel that the company will abide by that contract, given your past experience at U over the past few years?

As far as the UAL "agreement", remember that UAL is still being watched by da judge. Let's see what happens after they emerge from bankruptcy. I haven't seen a lot of evidence that most airline management considers CBAs as anything more than an annoyance to be worked around at every opportunity. (Me? Cynical? I'm hurt that you would ever think that. )

 

[700UW]

They are not abiding by the terms of the contracts of the last two rounds of concessions, why do you think the IAM has taken the stance it has?

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

They are not abiding by the terms of the contracts of the last two rounds of concessions, why do you think the IAM has taken the stance it has?

700UW Have you thought about the scab questions I asked? Or you can PM them to me

 

[700UW]

The union can do what INT local lodge 2444 did, they took them to court and they ended up settling for half their fines before it went to court. There are specific procedures in the IAM constitution that must be followed in order to take the scabs to court and get a judgement from the court to enforce the fines.

 

[autofixer]

I just "said no" and the rest of the spineless pilot group said "yes". So I said, "eject, eject, eject!" and now I am making my own way. I may come back from leave in January...it just depends on MY situation. It appears to me, that the ones saying "no" are the ones who ARE ready in the event that UAIR finally shuts down.

The moral of the story is, get your house in order... to be truely free. In this way, UAIR management cannot dictate the terms of your everday life to you. You can say enough is enough at any time and just walk away. If you are endentured as a serf to UAIR, you owe your (and your family's) existance to a failed management group and a failed Union leadership. JMHO B)

 

[MrAeroMan]

In my case you would be dead wrong. I have zero debt and other skills and have had enough of this place to last ten life times and therefore will not give them one more red cent, period. I will move on with my life. I am not one bit scared and in fact looking forward to a refreshing change.

There is a doctor not far from the airport who told me he sees three or four patients daily that are all U employees and they ALL have stress related problems. So given that fact what more of a price must we pay the piper.

I feel with management taking our BUS work, creating havoc with punitive policies, and basically making life hell via tyrannical management, I feel that is more than enough of a price to pay WITHOUT submitting more with my pocket book. Apparently the union leadership so far feels the exact same way being they have yet to see their way to even talking seriously to management about more give backs

What happened to the claim you were leaving the company for another job?

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

The union can do what INT local lodge 2444 did, they took them to court and they ended up settling for half their fines before it went to court. There are specific procedures in the IAM constitution that must be followed in order to take the scabs to court and get a judgement from the court to enforce the fines.

So thats it? Do they piecefully intermingle with the very union brothers/sisters they turned their backs on?

What happened to, say the CLT scabs, are they back working along side their buds?

 

[700UW]

Well if the membership fails to treat them accordingly you cant blame the union.

I for one treated them like they should and was grilled by corporate security on a weekly basis.

The current workforce has forgotten the meaning of being a union member instead of a member of a union.

They have forgotten the people were killed, maimed, injured and fired for the rights we have now.

It is the me generation and they could not care less about anyone else or anything.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

I just "said no" and the rest of the spineless pilot group said "yes". So I said, "eject, eject, eject!" and now I am making my own way. I may come back from leave in January...it just depends on MY situation. It appears to me, that the ones saying "no" are the ones who ARE ready in the event that UAIR finally shuts down.

The moral of the story is, get your house in order... to be truely free. In this way, UAIR management cannot dictate the terms of your everday life to you. You can say enough is enough at any time and just walk away. If you are endentured as a serf to UAIR, you owe your (and your family's) existance to a failed management group and a failed Union leadership. JMHO B)

autofixer I love your post.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

Well if the membership fails to treat them accordingly you cant blame the union.

I for one treated them like they should and was grilled by corporate security on a weekly basis.

The current workforce has forgotten the meaning of being a union member instead of a member of a union.

They have forgotten the people were killed, maimed, injured and fired for the rights we have now.

It is the me generation and they could not care less about anyone else or anything.

Yes I can see how my posts on the subject of scabs may have sounded like I was blaming the union. I did not mean that. The union can only do what is legally in their power to do to the scabs.

I was really trying say I would like to see the membership treat scabs for what they really are and that is not a friend of yours. That does not anyway mean doing anything illegal or violent against them.

This is obviously my opinion and I am sure the torches are lighting up at this very minute for a good flaming on me.