Big Airlines: Not Much Runway Left

[diogenes]

Okkkaaaayyy, from the top.


1. The good Captain said,

The only union who has exchanged contract proposals and entered into direct negotiations is ALPA. Other unions have met to hear details of the new business plan or to provide cost cut suggestions, but to my knowledge no other union has engaged in direct negotiations with the company except the pilots.
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2. To which I responded,

And, if you'll have a look here, the IAM is talking with the company.

Facts sure get in the way of a good theory, don't they?
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Is not the IAM MDA committee currently in negotiations with the company?

They say they are.

Does not MDA have a bearing on concession plans going forward?
It does.

Can you keep past concessions being currently negotiated from overlapping onto future concessions being currently discussed?

I don't see how.

And dude, go buy a sense of humor.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

Okkkaaaayyy, from the top.


#1. The good Captain said,

The only union who has exchanged contract proposals and entered into direct negotiations is ALPA. Other unions have met to hear details of the new business plan or to provide cost cut suggestions, but to my knowledge no other union has engaged in direct negotiations with the company except the pilots.
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#2. To which I responded,

And, if you'll have a look here, the IAM is talking with the company.

Facts sure get in the way of a good theory, don't they?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is not the IAM MDA committee currently in negotiations with the company?

They say they are.

Does not MDA have a bearing on concession plans going forward?
It does.

Can you keep past concessions being currently negotiated from overlapping onto future concessions being currently discussed?

I don't see how.

And dude, go buy a sense of humor.

First off in quote #2 of your scenario above, you are saying you were responding to the captain. But if you look back at your original post (page 2 of the tread) you did not quote the captain or even reference the captain. Futhermore in #1 of your scenario above, his quote was actually posted (page 3 of thread) after your original post.

From that we can deduct #2 couldn't have been responding to #1 as #2 was posted before #1.

Since there was no reference to who or why you said made this statement with a link:

"And, if you'll have a look here, the IAM is talking with the company.

Facts sure get in the way of a good theory, don't they? "
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I like a a** assumed you were saying the IAM was talking about concessions with the company (mainline) which isn't true.

All I was trying to do was point out the fact that it was only talks on MDA nothing more. Anything more is just conjecture.

I did not mean to ruffle your feathers just make things more clear for everyone.

Obviously I did a bad job of that and actually I do have a sense of humor but where can I buy some more we could both pick some up. Dudet

 

[USA320Pilot]

Last week ALPA began preparing for bankruptcy when ALPA National bankruptcy attorney Richard Seltzer addressed the MEC. This meeting was in response to the company hiring both financial and legal bankruptcy advisors.

Furthermore, with the news that the company is in discussions with the ATSB to keep the loan guarantee intact while in bankruptcy and management is working on a plan to preserve the stock after the filing, the ALPA MEC -- controlled by the "hardliners" -- elected to provide the company with an initial contract proposal, which is valued at $211 million.

US Airways senior vice president of corporate development, alliances, and express Bruce Ashby, who is handling the company's negotiations, is unable to meet with ALPA until Wednesday, when the pilots negotiating committee is expecting management's counter proposal.

In regard to potential bankruptcy hearings and motions filed by the company against labor consider this. During the last bankruptcy the judge sided with the company on virtually every motion.

It is true that management cannot unilaterally reject a contract in bankruptcy, but they can prove to the judge with US Airways can no longer pay above LCC wages, benefits, and retirement.

If the judge agrees with management, then the judge can impose a new contract. If labor does not agree with the contract they can seek "self help" or "strike". if labor strikes then management can use employees who cross the picket line, replacement workers, or outsource all job functions.

I continue to believe it's better to have a job while looking for a job than to be on unemployment without medical insurance for you and your family.

In addition, even if an employee gets furloughed they are better off with the company surviving and not in bankruptcy because they can obtain severance pay, unemployment pay, COBRA medical insurance, pass privileges, J4J (if available), and recall rights.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

 

[cavalier]

In addition, even if an employee gets furloughed they are better off with the company surviving and not in bankruptcy because they can obtain severance pay, unemployment pay, COBRA medical insurance, pass privileges, J4J (if available), and recall rights.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

I feel sorry for you, I truly do.

God Grant you Peace........

 

[FlyingHippie]

if labor strikes then management can use employees who cross the picket line, replacement workers, or outsource all job functions.

Are you high? It will never get that far since the jobs will be paying pond scum wages that even lowlife scabs won't want.

 

[mweiss]

...the jobs will be paying pond scum wages that even lowlife scabs won't want.

I'll bet you that if the rank and file strike there will, indeed, be those who step in willing to do the job at those wages. I don't understand why they will, but they will.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

I'll bet you that if the rank and file strike there will, indeed, be those who step in willing to do the job at those wages. I don't understand why they will, but they will.

You are probably right if it comes down to strike, but that will not have any bearing on if a strike takes place so it is a moot point. Besides there is always in-house job action as opposed to outright stike.

 

[diogenes]

usairways-vote-NO,



Well, here's a mea culpa for you.

Go back to page 2 and see where tadjr responded to the captain.

I intended to add to his thought.

And, in explaining to you, I cited the incorrect paragraph from the good captain.

Certainly confusing, and that's my fault.

Who said drinking and posting don't mix? :blink:

By the way, love the handle. I have, every time.

 

[diogenes]

I'll bet you that if the rank and file strike there will, indeed, be those who step in willing to do the job at those wages. I don't understand why they will, but they will.

Michael,

I don't believe U could survive a strike.

It would be lights out.

 

[700UW]

The Scab
"After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, and the vampire, he had some awful substance left with which he made a scab."

"A scab is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a water brain, a combination backbone of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles."

"When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the devil shuts the gates of hell to keep him out."

"No man (or woman) has a right to scab so long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in, or a rope long enough to hang his body with. Judas was a gentleman compared with a scab. For betraying his master, he had character enough to hang himself." A scab has not.

"Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Judas sold his Savior for thirty pieces of silver. Benedict Arnold sold his country for a promise of a commision in the british army." The scab sells his birthright, country, his wife, his children and his fellowmen for an unfulfilled promise from his employer.

Esau was a traitor to himself; Judas was a traitor to his God; Benedict Arnold was a traitor to his country; a scab is a traitor to his God, his country, his family and his class."

Author --- Jack London (1876-1916)

NO SCABS!

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

usairways-vote-NO,



Well, here's a mea culpa for you.

Go back to page 2 and see where tadjr responded to the captain.

I intended to add to his thought.

And, in explaining to you, I cited the incorrect paragraph from the good captain.

Certainly confusing, and that's my fault.

Who said drinking and posting don't mix? :blink:

By the way, love the handle. I have, every time.

Well I think we got it all figured out. I did go back and read tadjr post.

So if anything comes to a vote what your call? Confused again?

Is it to early for a cold one.

Not to sure if you were saying you like the vote_NO handle but a certain captain says he won't read or respond to my posts because the name conjures up the notion I am a closed minded poster. To say I was floored to read that from him, the most closed minded person posting on here, would be mild. Of course that was a lie because he has since responded, with his pick and choose method, to my posts.

I even thought of creating a new handle (if you can even do that) just to debate him but thought it over and knew it would be futile attempt because he never debates anyone. He just places his spin on everything then when he chooses to respond its essentially to call them a liar with no supporting facts.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

The Scab

NO SCABS!

700UW

What recourse does the IAM have with scabs?

And after strike and a scab returns what becomes of him/her?

Maybe a real example could be used from the last IAM strike in 1992
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On a another note if, and thats a big if, a contract is abrogated, does the judge impose a contact, as people on here suggest, or is the company free to impose what it wants and whatever it imposes does it take form as a new contract or is the company free to make more changes at will. Isn't the union still the bargaining unit as long as they are not out on strike and been replaced?

 

[cavalier]

I'll bet you that if the rank and file strike there will, indeed, be those who step in willing to do the job at those wages. I don't understand why they will, but they will.

Trouble with that tactic is the airline is beyond anemic already and not far from death as it is.

If they continue to play hardball it’s over for everyone and the captain knows this and why he is worried and begging what he calls hardliners and what I call people who have simply had enough knowing when to put the old dog down.

Even the experts don’t believe more concessions will save the day and give it at best a 50/50 shot.

A judge will NOT be this airline’s savior, WAKE UP!

This thing is so bizarre that we have people writing books on it, we will be a another Eastern with a different story but same results. I along with many others believe this and therefore can’t see how in the hell giving a THIRD time will do a damn thing except make rich men richer and delay destiny for labor.

To the ones who just can’t accept it and see your way around U, I recommend you seek some professional help because life will go on without U in your life. I am convinced there are indeed people who need help, there are some on these boards begging against all common sense to submit submit, it’s insanity, IMO.

 

[jimntx]

I'll bet you that if the rank and file strike there will, indeed, be those who step in willing to do the job at those wages. I don't understand why they will, but they will.

I agree.

Reason why: (IMHO, of course)
This "improving" economy doesn't seem to be creating any real jobs. Now before those who think Bush is the end all and the be all get your knickers in a twist, I am well aware that the "Jobs Numbers" have been better the past couple of months.

However, has anyone noticed that the administration has been studiously avoiding talking about the quality of those jobs? The jobs that were lost had titles like accountant, computer programmer, marketing rep. The jobs being created have titles like cashier, sales clerk, stocker.

There is nothing wrong with a cashier job--all work has dignity--but if you bought your home based upon a computer programmer salary, it would seem to me that it would be hard to make the mortgage payment from a cashier income.

If you are working at Burger King for minimum wage to feed your kids, you have some mechanical skills, and an entry level a/c mechanic job at DFW is advertised at $11/hr (as a result of a strike), what would you do? Take the chance to double your income and maybe hold on to your home, or stand on principle and move to a homeless shelter?

I find myself less and less able to sit in judgement over the choices other people make. You see, I can afford principles. I'm not sure everyone else can.

 

[USA320Pilot]

I believe the people who scream the most to "just say no" are the people who have the most fear. Otherewise, why would they be so emotional?

Everybody understands the CASM problem for every network carrier and the Business Week article that started this thread accurately describes the industry meltdown.

If the naysayers were not so scared and so fearful, they would not be screaming so loud on this message board. The issue is they likely have no other option to provide similar benefit to US Airways or they would have already taken that route and instead simply complain on this board.

They apparently cannot personally take or accept the proposed changes, thus they complain instead of finding a better presonal solution.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot