Big Airlines: Not Much Runway Left

[USA320Pilot]

Tadjr:

I believe you're talking semantics here, but that's o.k.

The only union who has exchanged contract proposals and entered into direct negotiations is ALPA. Other unions have met to hear details of the new business plan or to provide cost cut suggestions, but to my knowledge no other union has engaged in direct negotiations with the company except the pilots.

I believe US Airways wants to reach new LCC type contracts will all of its unions and its up to each union on whether or not they want to reach an accord or probably enter bankruptcy with their current contract in place.

In regard to entering a pre-packaged bankruptcy, maintaining ATSB funds, and preserving equity, it may or may not occur, but I do know this...management and its advisors are working on a plan to do just that -- if all stakeholders do not consensually agree to participate in the "Transformation Plan". Furthermore, I do know labor relations and the law firm of Arnold and Porter have been evaluating bankruptcy code S.1113/S.1114 options, if necessary.

ALPA believes a Chapter 11 filing will occur and the union has offered a very significant cost cut proposal, which has been made public knowledge, because of the pending formal reorganization. It's up to each union to decide what to do prior to the potential filing.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

 

[700UW]

Blah Blah Blah, the horse is dead. You must have a hard drive just for your clipboard since you post the same diatribe all the time.

How many times have you been told, why would you negotiate with a company who cant honor the very concessionary contracts they agreed too!

Also this is not Lakefield's plan, it is Siegel's the BOD approved it before Seigel was fired, or did you forget that too?

Why don't we just outsource all pilot jobs to Mesa and then see how you feel?

a320pilot says:
ALPA believes a Chapter 11 filing will occur and the union has offered a very significant cost cut proposal, which has been made public knowledge, because of the pending formal reorganization. It's up to each union to decide what to do prior to the potential filing.

So now you are ALPA's Official Spokesman too?

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

The only union who has exchanged contract proposals and entered into direct negotiations is ALPA. Other unions have met to hear details of the new business plan or to provide cost cut suggestions, but to my knowledge no other union has engaged in direct negotiations with the company except the pilots.

I believe US Airways wants to reach new LCC type contracts will all of its unions and its up to each union on whether or not they want to reach an accord or probably enter bankruptcy with their current contract in place.

In regard to entering a pre-packaged bankruptcy, maintaining ATSB funds, and preserving equity, it may or may not occur, but I do know this...management and its advisors are working on a plan to do just that -- if all stakeholders do not consensually agree to participate in the "Transformation Plan".

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

I am in a state of shock

I almost agree 100% with your post

 

[USA320Pilot]

700UW:

700UW said: "Blah Blah Blah, the horse is dead. You must have a hard drive just for your clipboard since you post the same diatribe all the time."

USA320Pilot comments: What was the point of your comment above? I did not bring up the labor relations issue and the "just say no" crowd started this debate; therefore, I suggest it’s you and your colleagues who engaged in what you referred to as "diatribe".

What's interesting about the IAM now, which is different from before, is that if the company enters bankruptcy, the airline could seek to immediately outsource all B737, B757, B767, and A330 heavy and line maintenance during the proceedings or if the union seeks "self help". Therefore, could the union be playing right into management's hand?

I do not like this anymore than anybody else, however, it’s a risk. We are all seeing outsourcing and it's unpleasant, but it's occurring throughout business. Let's hope things work out for all concerned.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

 

[700UW]

What's interesting about the IAM now, which is different from before, is that if the company enters bankruptcy, the airline could seek to immediately outsource all B737, B757, B767, and A330 heavy and line maintenance during the proceedings or if the union seeks self help. Therefore, could the union be playing right into management's hand?
Respectfully,
USA320Pilot

And they can't they have to follow the guidelines, once again you been told over and over and over like a broken record, they cannot go into court and just abrogate a contract (but hey, why let the law get in the way of your opinions?).

And they can go into court and ask for ALL flying to be outsourced too!

Here read this again for the 1,000,000 time, maybe you will finally comprehend it?

Levine also went over all the procedures and steps in the bankruptcy codes. One item she covered in depth is the 1113 letter, which refers to the section of code that ensures that a company negotiates with the union before they seek abrogation of the labor agreement. When a company seeks protection, the agreement remains in effect. When a union negotiates an 1113 letter it secures an agreement with the company showing that the company will not seek further cuts from labor. To this date, no company that has had an 1113 letter negotiated has ever asked the court to abrogate it.

Companies that request abrogation of the labor agreement but it must meet the following nine (9) distinct requirements:

1. The debtor in possession must have made a proposal to the union.
2. The proposal must be based upon the most complete and reliable information available at the time of the proposal.
3. The modification must be necessary to permit reorganization.
4. The modification must provide that all affected parties be treated fairly and equitably.
5. The debtor must provide the union with such relevant information as is necessary to evaluate the proposal.
6. The debtor must have met with the collective bargaining representative at the reasonable times subsequent to making the proposal.
7. The debtor must have negotiated with the union concerning the proposal in good faith.
8. The union must have refused to accept the proposal with good cause.
9. The balance of the equities must clearly favor rejection of the agreement.

 

[USA320Pilot]

700UW:

700UW, I understand what you have posted regarding the bankruptcy code and I attended many of the previous bankruptcy hearings during the company's formal reorganization.

During the last bankruptcy the judge approved virtually all of the company's motions and labor won "zero".

Your union has the right to do what they want and your attorney can make any argument you want in court, but the judge’s principal responsibility is to protect the debtor and the creditors.

Therefore, if any union goes into bankruptcy and does not reach a new accord before the S.1113/S.1114 hearing, management has let it be known they could seek to "whack" labor. In the IAM's case if “self helpâ€￾ occurs, the company would then be permitted to use replacement workers, outsource all heavy maintenance, and use line maintenance contractors, like US Airways presently does in places like Phoenix.

Again, ALPA, the IAM, and the other unions have an option here: negotiate a new CBA or face the judge. The ALPA Negotiating Committee Chairman, who is what is considered a "hardliner", has let it be known that he believes the company will enter bankruptcy. Moreover, the ALPA MEC received bankruptcy preparation briefings last week from ALPA International's bankruptcy attorney, and the union will likely reach an accord with S.1113/S.1114 protection. It's up to the other unions on whether or not they want to do the same thing.

Finally, US Airways and its financial and legal advisors are working on a pre-packaged bankruptcy plan and they have held discussions with the ATSB to preserve the guaranteed funds and to preserve the current security during the “judicial restructuringâ€￾, if necessary.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[cavalier]

Regards,

USA320Pilot

This is old captain, REAL old.

The IAM has spoken and I don't think they are worried about what captain kirk believes, thinks or says, I sure in hell don't.

(ONE) thing you have said I agree with, I will stop reading your dripple.

 

[700UW]

Lets see, there were no abrogation hearings on any CBA, there were 1113 letter motions to accept new CBAs.

So I guess if you attend a hearing you are now an expert?

And this is way differant then the last filing, when you can show how the company has violated CBAs, failed to utilize all concessions given to them and fail to enact any cost savings.

And just like UAL's 1114 motion several weeks ago when the judge said no and told UAL to go back and negotiate with the employees.

And they can use vendors for minor maintenance only, everything is OUR work, but you don't care as long as Mesa is not flying your 320, but it will happen.

And prove they have hired lawyers and are working a plan? They have no plan excpet to pillage employees.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Nobody likes the fact that the company and its employees are in this position. Nobody, not me or anybody else and it simply "sucks". But we are and we all need to try and find the best solution to the problem.

The fact is the LCCs and RJ operators have changed the industry forever. Either a union and the company reach an agreement or the airline will likely enter bankruptcy where the future will likely be sorse than if a new labor accord is reached.

I'm of the belief that it is better to have a job while you're looking for a job, versus not reaching an accord with the company that could lead to more layoffs or virtual elimination of an employee group through the bankrutcy process.

It's your right to disasgree with me, but even if an employee gets laid off through the process they're better off with severance pay, eunemployement, COBRA, pass privleges, recall rights, and J4J (if possible) than just unemployment.

If you and your union disagree with me that's o.k., but then be preapred to have your legal counsel explain to the bankruptcy judge why you deserve pay and benefits more than the competition for a bankrupt company.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

 

[TheLarkAscending]

Ugh! Will the repetitive vomitus EVER stop?!

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

Why do you continue this? If the company has the plans to take care of its union in the courts then why do you care what happens with the other unions? It is obvious that you only care for yourself so if the company has its plans all sewed up and will get its way why must you harp to the other unions what you THINK will happen to them? Are you the almighty savior and pied piper rolled into one ready to lead the employees to the yellow brick road and over the rainbow?

Why don't you worry about your union and lead them into oblivion and leave the rest alone. In fact you say you have everything wrapped up if Usairways folds so why don't you just not worry about ALPA either. Just sit back have a beer and take care of things at home.



I may be wrong but I think that you also get Cobra along with unemployment

 

[diogenes]

That is MDA Negotiations District 141 nothing more

And that the facts

Fully aware of that, and never claimed otherwise.

Here's the logic.

If, MDA is integral to 'Transformation',

And, current MDA D141 talks are being conducted, although under the aegis of the last concession round (anybody else note the irony of one concession round bleeding into the other? looks like three-card monte to me),

Then current MDA D141 talks are relevant to Transformation.

Euclid would be proud!

 

[Borescope]

I was under the impression that the era of going to BK court, filing S1113/1114 to void union contracts, and then imposing new contracts at the companies sole discretion died after the CAL Bankruptcy of Frank Lorenzo.

Companies can not just throw out labor contracts. However, if they can show a judge that they can't live with the current contract and show him /her what they can live with. The judge can impose the contract. No bargaining. You get what you get.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

Fully aware of that, and never claimed otherwise.

Here's the logic.

If, MDA is integral to 'Transformation',

And, current MDA D141 talks are being conducted, although under the aegis of the last concession round (anybody else note the irony of one concession round bleeding into the other? looks like three-card monte to me),

Then current MDA D141 talks are relevant to Transformation.

Euclid would be proud!

This is what you said:

QUOTE (diogenes @ Jun 25 2004, 03:03 PM)
http://www.iam141.org/usairway.htm#MDAupdate6-17-04



And, if you'll have a look here, the IAM is talking with the company.

Facts sure get in the way of a good theory, don't they?

END QUOTE


I said:

That is MDA Negotiations District 141 nothing more

And that the facts

END QUOTE
------------------------------------------------------------


Well I don't know about others but I can't read minds so if you believe all that other garbage why didn't you just come out and say it the first time? Oh wait I know it was because its just a theory but you wanted to post it as a fact. Just like the sentence, of yours above, that I highlighted. Nice try but it didn't work

By the way I think your theory is a crock.

I think Euclid would be embarrassed

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

Companies can not just throw out labor contracts. However, if they can show a judge that they can't live with the current contract and show him /her what they can live with. The judge can impose the contract. No bargaining. You get what you get.

The judge can't impose anything, the company can impose a contract (I am not even sure if its called a contract) and the uinon has the right of self help up to and including a strike.

But as pointed out before there is a set of rules the company has to follow and convince the judge that they followed before the judge can abrogate a contract.

Correct if I am wrong..