Battle Line Is Drawn

[The Ronin]

Good God...I've got three of them on my six....and no wing man in site....might be it for the ol' Ronin

 

[The Ronin]

I heard a secret rumor from ALPA today but you have to promise you're not going to tell anyone, OK? Well, at your last union meeting, ALPA had black helicopters hovering overhead listening to what was going on inside. The plan now is to get your pension liquidated, and then take that money to give all ALPA members a BIG RAISE! Then they're going to take the rest of the money and use that to fund their ALPA pension fund and give all their ALPA retirees EVEN MORE MONEY! Yup, it's true! You heard it here first! Rage against the machine Ronin!! Burn the house down!! They're coming after you!!

I knew I heard something......

 

[The Ronin]

I would like to request 50% of the doughnuts that used to go to the mechanic's break room

Cut the pay...take the pension....TOUCH THE DOUGHNUTS AND IT'S YOUR ASS

 

[The Ronin]

Sorry mate about the typo. Was typing on the run. Still have a job to do, for now I suppose.

Where is the mechanicspay.com site? How do you stack up with the boys over at Jiffly Lube? Should you not be paid and benefited on the lowest common denominator if you are mandating that for the other employees?

As for you being the voice of the airline? Hardly. Have not spoken to anyone with your type of mentality. Of course speaking may be difficult at best for some one of your caliber. Grunts and hand signals may be all that is left of your miserable mind.

[post="167623"][/post]​

Ooooh ooooh aahhh aahhhh eeeekkk eekkkk gruuunnt gruuuunt oooh ooooh

 

[737nCH11]

Being the "greedy" s.o.b that I am, I just might get on the hotline to Glenn and demand all of the doughnuts.

 

[Eagle]

A couple of thoughts.
Is it possible for the company to terminate the pensions leaving the government to pick up what it does, then create a 401k or other vehical to make up what would have been the difference thus releaving a significant portion of the debt?

Is it possible that for a great number in the non-pilot plans that the Pension Guarantee amount coveres the total amount that would be paid?

It also seems to me that a few years back the penions were over funded and the concerns were related to corporate raiders. Then during the 90s it was still well funded but that the amount owed now is so great is in part because the stock market tanked.

 

[alexander66]

United ALPA Statement on Pilot Pension Plans
Monday August 9, 12:08 pm ET

CHICAGO, Aug. 9 /PRNewswire/ -- Captain Mark Bathurst, Chairman of the United Pilots Master Executive Council of the Air Line Pilots Association, released the following statement regarding pilot pensions at United:

A number of news media outlets have reported that United Airlines will seek to terminate all employee pension plans, including the pilot pension plan, as part of its program to exit bankruptcy. The pilots of United Airlines have the following message for the Company, the media and the financial markets: we will use every resource at our command and every legal means available to prevent the Company from destroying the pilot pension program.

We recognize United's continuing need to reduce operating costs, given the current dramatic rise in the price of fuel. However, the Company's 9,000 pilots have already made huge concessions to provide United with over $6 billion in financial relief over the next five years. Over the last 18 months, the average pilot has forfeited 45% of his or her pay and 20% of his or her pension benefits, as well as endured a 15% increase in work hours. We made these enormous financial and lifestyle sacrifices to help the airline move toward profitability and to protect our pensions. We will not further sacrifice our futures -- and our families' futures -- as well.

The facts are now clear: United's labor costs are now among the lowest in the network airline industry, but its non-labor operating expenses remain among the highest. Outside of labor and fuel costs, American Airlines enjoys a full 25% operating cost advantage over United. United's maintenance and airport operations are substantially less efficient than its industry peers; its aircraft leases remain well above market; its relationship with United Express carriers is unprofitable and unstable; and United fails to manage revenue as well as American, Continental or Northwest. Any corporate management team can attack employee pensions. That is the "simple" way to generate a large sum of cash. We are asking this management team for two things: accountability, and to begin steps toward executing a solid, rational, and achievable business plan that does not attempt to solve its problems on the backs of its employees.

United's pilots have acquiesced to massive pay cuts and much longer working hours: huge concessions that made it possible for this great airline to remain viable throughout an extraordinarily difficult period. Terminating pilot pensions has the potential to destroy the career of every United pilot, and potentially plunge labor relations at United into years of hostility and chaos. We will do everything in our power to avoid that scenario. The pilots of United Airlines will fight for our pensions every bit as hard as we have fought to ensure that United emerges from bankruptcy as the best airline in the world.

[post="167252"][/post]​

 

[alexander66]

Not exactly true. Yes, I am vocal about both the imbalance and inequitable relationships occuring here. I do not believe that successful and selfishness/greed can exist in the same sentence. I have been around you guys as you used to call LUV pilots scabs. I never have called LUV mechs scabs, many are friends of mine and they have always been helpful with info on guppy problems and generous with misc parts when the need occurred. Point is, there was a desire from management to pilots to every other employee group to be successful with their PILOTS leading the way. Now its not a perfect eutopian world there and as in all things, there will be difficulties ahead. But they are HIRING mechs even in this enviroment, making $8/hr more than me and taking market share from everybody (what I am eluding to is this is a sign of success, not my envy). Their F/A's just got a big bump and their company's future is very optimistic and why????....because their management and PILOTS I believe led the way. Is this overly simplistic, yes it is. In this game of poker with the stakes being our livelyhoods, at a time we collectively should be demanding good management, ALPA once again alienates itself from the rank and file. There WAS a purpose for those comments made or they wouldn't have been said. Once again bad timing ALPA like the contract of 2000. And when you look at NWA, DAL and UAL, I believe the government, companies and rank and file workers agree....ALPA, you gotta go.

[post="167491"][/post]​

 

[alexander66]

"Every resource at our command"!!!

The choking of the golden goose continues.

I'm curious how the pilots would improve the company -- TED???

[post="167254"][/post]​

The alpa pilots of UAL have done their best to destroy UAL.
Roger hall in 1985 and the biggest jerk of all , Dubinski in 2000.
He proceeded to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. The slowdown he demanded in 2000, and the blind obedience of the UAL pilots certainly
led to the demise of ual.
After 9/11 they bled the company until they had to file chapter 11

 

[UAL_TECH]

Lets see where the gunsite is pointing.....
...
And UAL TECH does not believe their out to screw the mechanics...what do they have to do....SHOOT YOU before you believe they're pointing a gun at you...jesus

[post="167484"][/post]​

Ronin,
I have no delusions as to where the pilots stand. They stand for themselves (period – end of story); they mouth the ‘union’ mantra when it benefits them and are extremely quiet when something happens to others as long as it doesn’t shake their world. That’s the fact of it and it will not change!
Maybe I am naive, but I do believe that they are not malicious against any one group in particular (except maybe jetz) as long as any one group does not pose a threat to them in their goal to squeeze a little more out of the goose, or maintain the goose in intensive care until the goose starts laying eggs again, then they will choke it back into cardiac arrest.

You also know that I am not timid when it comes to speaking my mind.

Take Care,
B) UAL_TECH

 

[UAL_TECH]

Being the "greedy" s.o.b that I am, I just might get on the hotline to Glenn and demand all of the doughnuts.

[post="167635"][/post]​

This would not be surprising.

UT

 

[The Gopher]

Is it possible for the company to terminate the pensions leaving the government to pick up what it does, then create a 401k or other vehical to make up what would have been the difference thus releaving a significant portion of the debt?

Is it possible that for a great number in the non-pilot plans that the Pension Guarantee amount coveres the total amount that would be paid?

[post="167698"][/post]​

I'll take a matching 401k any day over a defined benefit pension. Let ME control where it is invested for 30 years, and give me the ability to take it with me if/when I quit UAL. I have heard several times that this is the plan for post-DB pensions.

Also: If your pension will upon retirement will be $44,000 or less, what are you complaining about? The PBGC will pay it, not UAL. And it is not a taxpayer bailout. All corportations with DB pensions contribute to the PBGC ( Like FDIC for banks). Now if the PBGC goes insolvent, that's another story.

I'm probably one of the guys you love to hate: under 30, MBA, and a member of management. But I worked OZ unlike many of my colleagues. I see this while Chapter 11 process as black and white: what we were doing was not working. At all. You are absolutely right that other non-labor savings that need to be explored, but labor is the number one expense (although fuel is catching up). Can't cut fuel prices, so even a 2% savings in labor costs are millioins of dollars.

Where is the Golden Goose? It's been replaced by the Sacred Cow, the many, MANY, little management pet projects that people won't even consider cutting. Pilots: remember the EFB (Electronic Flight Bag)? Did you know that we are spending MILLIONS developing this little toy so that you can throw away your paper charts and shoot a Cat III in the snow looking at a laptop screen? Take a look at the number of people in our computer services department on SkyNet. Unreal, considering they START at about $60,000 per year. Sacred Cows.

Best of luck to everyone...

 

[The Ronin]

I'll take a matching 401k any day over a defined benefit pension. Let ME control where it is invested for 30 years, and give me the ability to take it with me if/when I quit UAL. I have heard several times that this is the plan for post-DB pensions.

Also: If your pension will upon retirement will be $44,000 or less, what are you complaining about? The PBGC will pay it, not UAL. And it is not a taxpayer bailout. All corportations with DB pensions contribute to the PBGC ( Like FDIC for banks). Now if the PBGC goes insolvent, that's another story.

I'm probably one of the guys you love to hate: under 30, MBA, and a member of management. But I worked OZ unlike many of my colleagues. I see this while Chapter 11 process as black and white: what we were doing was not working. At all. You are absolutely right that other non-labor savings that need to be explored, but labor is the number one expense (although fuel is catching up). Can't cut fuel prices, so even a 2% savings in labor costs are millioins of dollars.

Where is the Golden Goose? It's been replaced by the Sacred Cow, the many, MANY, little management pet projects that people won't even consider cutting. Pilots: remember the EFB (Electronic Flight Bag)? Did you know that we are spending MILLIONS developing this little toy so that you can throw away your paper charts and shoot a Cat III in the snow looking at a laptop screen? Take a look at the number of people in our computer services department on SkyNet. Unreal, considering they START at about $60,000 per year. Sacred Cows.

Best of luck to everyone...

[post="167821"][/post]​

Oh my friend.... this is EXACTLY what I am talking about. I have never said anything about the pension, nor have I expressed that my Pilot brethren were standing around talking into their two-way radio wristwatches about plots against mechanics. I have resigned myself to the fact that the pension is probably gone, and realistically it has to happen to probably survive. One walk through SKYNET and you can tell how dis-jointed this whole thing is. Why aren't all the engineering links on the same page? Why do they have the same overlapping upper echelons instead of only one overseeing all sections? How do I keep running into the same guy who has been cut from 3 separate section shutdowns only to find another spot somewhere else? It isn't like I want anyone to lose their job but they keep cutting departments and nobody is leaving, except for the people that actually DO something and are covered by contracts. They'll cut the $12/hr secretary jobs to show staff reductions on paper with their "percentages" but have some $76k/yr smuck cover the work...maybe. Why do we have so many VP's....I know this is asked a lot and they always have some answer but I still don't get it.

 

[ualdriver]

UAL-TECH, Ronin, and the others like them-

"Ronin,
I have no delusions as to where the pilots stand. They stand for themselves (period – end of story); they mouth the ‘union’ mantra when it benefits them and are extremely quiet when something happens to others as long as it doesn’t shake their world......"


And we all know the mechanics are not out for themselves and are ALWAYS thinking of the other employee groups when it comes to "job actions." I mean, c'mon now. When we were teetering on bankruptcy a couple of years back, hoping that the ATSB would approve our loan (the first time) they were only thinking of the other employee groups with the shenanigans they were playing, dragging out their contract negotiations, trying to figure out whether they were IAM or AMFA, rarely meeting aircraft on time at ORD to guide them to the gate, taking their sweet time fixing gripes, etc., in order to "make their point" about the slow pace of contract negotiation progress. All that crap looked really good to the ATSB the first time around and helped them make their decision NOT to approve our loan, but again, I'm sure the mechanics were thinking of everyone else when they took those actions during the first ATSB denial. I can't even count how many times my aircraft was late waiting for you guys during your negotiations. Oh wait. That's right. There were no individuals in the IAM who were doing anything wrong during that time period in order to "make a point." My mistake.

And of course, the mechanics have a long history of thinking of others before themselves. I mean 74 (yes seventy-four) days of strikes between 1975-1979 alone is a really nice way to show the other employees and customers that you care. They didn't even have the COURTESY of doing a slow down or anything like that just to at least get their customers to where they were going. I'm sure all the other employee groups "felt the love" during that time period.

Here's another example of the mechanics showing how they are not all out for themselves. ALPA members took a 30-40% paycut (more than any other employee group) because, after all, we make too much money and therefore should "step up to the plate" to take a larger paycut than those who don't do as well financially. The mechanics saw that their salaries, compared to many, many other employee groups on the property, is much higher than those in unskilled positions. So they too stepped up to the plate and lead by example by taking a much larger paycut than those other groups...............NOT!!!! After all, it's OK for ALPA to take a big work rules/salary pay cut because they make more, but did the mechanics take a significantly bigger paycut, then say a flight attendant? Did they lead by example? NOPE!! Never have, never will.

And finally, the IAM is showing they are not out for themselves by suing senior executives over the pension issue. I mean, when banks look at United to decide whether or not to loan us money so that we can exit bankruptcy, they LOVE to see internal turmoil. They LOVE seeing IAM board members boycotting meetings. The LOVE that internal strife. It makes them just want to throw money at us. But again, of course, the IAM's lawsuit is not for them, it's for all of us.

You know, you mechanics who complain about those greedy, overpaid pilots are right. It's not all about you. You have plenty of love for everyone. The above examples are just a few of the points that illustrate that. How about a group hug with a mechanic in the middle?

ualdriver

P.S. ALPA is also responsible for global warming and the spike in recent oil prices.

 

[magsau]

I'll take a matching 401k any day over a defined benefit pension. Let ME control where it is invested for 30 years, and give me the ability to take it with me if/when I quit UAL. I have heard several times that this is the plan for post-DB pensions.

Also: If your pension will upon retirement will be $44,000 or less, what are you complaining about? The PBGC will pay it, not UAL. And it is not a taxpayer bailout. All corportations with DB pensions contribute to the PBGC ( Like FDIC for banks). Now if the PBGC goes insolvent, that's another story.

I'm probably one of the guys you love to hate: under 30, MBA, and a member of management. But I worked OZ unlike many of my colleagues. I see this while Chapter 11 process as black and white: what we were doing was not working. At all. You are absolutely right that other non-labor savings that need to be explored, but labor is the number one expense (although fuel is catching up). Can't cut fuel prices, so even a 2% savings in labor costs are millioins of dollars.

Where is the Golden Goose? It's been replaced by the Sacred Cow, the many, MANY, little management pet projects that people won't even consider cutting. Pilots: remember the EFB (Electronic Flight Bag)? Did you know that we are spending MILLIONS developing this little toy so that you can throw away your paper charts and shoot a Cat III in the snow looking at a laptop screen? Take a look at the number of people in our computer services department on SkyNet. Unreal, considering they START at about $60,000 per year. Sacred Cows.

Best of luck to everyone...

[post="167821"][/post]​

I agree with you about the pensions.

On the EFB issue I believe it will cut cost overall. Just nailing down a version and system is the part that is like slugging through mud. If you eliminate the traditional FB you get less back injuries and missed work from back problems. Eleminating the bi-weekly paper revisions will save the company thousands of dollars in distribution cost. Also the EFB will hopefully allow for NOWRAD pictures to be generated in the cockpit. As of now we are using only airborne and dispatch and pilot reports to navigate around the storms. Having the NOWRAD pictures will help in getting routings and rides that are more cofortable and efficient. New technology is something that always needs to be addressed. Do you suggest we should not have EGPWS in the aircraft? How about the AED's. In my opinion if someone has a heart attack they should have brought their own AED instead of us furnishing it for them.