Ual Mec Responds

[ualdriver]

WorldTraveler-

be nice to the old driver. He and his buds thought that had managed to protect themselves when all of a sudden they woke up and found that it was all a fantasy. 2005 will be their nightmare played out in living color. As I said several days ago, the PBGC would fight and they did. The PBGC is not a fairy godmother. It doesn't work to snap one's little fingers and expect her to clean up the mess that has been created after years of mismanagement and labor-management conflict.

The PBGC just said that they want to assume (i.e. take over) ALPA's pension fund, assuming the financial liability that the take over would entail. Whether they do it now, or in May when ALPA wanted them to do it, the taxpayers are still paying for my pension, or at least part of it. So, thanks WorldTraveler, for the estimated $10,500+ a year I will get many, many years down the road from the PBGC if they terminate in January. And maybe a little more if this drags out in court! Fortunately, I have another 25+ years to go until age 60 to save up the rest in case the PBGC goes away, too. Nightmare.......nah. But I'll drink a toast to your generosity at my retirement!

You've had a great run, United Airlines, but the end is in sight and you aren't heading for the winners circle. The airline industry will now be run by companies that recognize that competition is a good thing, airlines are service businesses, and employees are the greatest assets. All those juicy routes will find homes in other airlines' networks.

Wow! Are you bitter! Is this Fish's alter ego? I'm the one that's supposed to be bitter and angry, aren't I? Anyway, as I have said in a previous post, the news of our death has been greatly exaggerated so far. UAL could still fail, but probably not over the PBGC taking over ALPA pensions in January instead of May. Much bigger issues loom ahead. This is just one of the many speedbumps in the course of 2 years' worth of bankruptcy.

Don't worry, we'll give you your little pension check, driver. The clock is about ready to strike 12 and you know what happens then....

I'm not particularly worried about my pension check as I am one of the fortunate ones with time to make up the loss, but thanks for your concern- and thanks for your tax dollars! Happy New Year!

 

[ualdriver]

"Huge exaggeration on your part. If anyone is going from $40K to $22K a year, it's not an hourly employee in IAM, AMFA, or the AFA. No one's full time hourly rate is going down 55%. Except maybe some ALPA members"

Unlimited part-time. Most IAM Full-time will be surplussed to Part-time. 40 hours to 20 hours. That's 50% Plus 9-14% pay cut. We are looking at 59%. Some may be cut to 16 hrs.

[post="234433"][/post]​

Hence the wording of "FULL TIME" hourly employees. I have no idea how many of you guys will go from full time to part time (or worse) if your TA's pass. But don't worry, AAFSC says that you don't have much to lose. You can find a job that pays just as much somewhere else. Please don't shoot the messenger (i.e. me). I'm just repeating what I was told.

 

[aafsc]

"Huge exaggeration on your part. If anyone is going from $40K to $22K a year, it's not an hourly employee in IAM, AMFA, or the AFA. No one's full time hourly rate is going down 55%. Except maybe some ALPA members"

Unlimited part-time. Most IAM Full-time will be surplussed to Part-time. 40 hours to 20 hours. That's 50% Plus 9-14% pay cut. We are looking at 59%. Some may be cut to 16 hrs.

[post="234433"][/post]​

Thats just rate of pay and hours worked. What about loss of holidays and holiday pay (double time and a half) on your few remaining holidays. In addition to health insurance, pensions, and retiree healthcare don't they also want to take vacation time away as well?

 

[student]

Vacation weeks will be 4 max. Ualdriver, would you feel better if you could keep, say, $200 hr, and have your hrs worked 30 hrs max per month? Then you could bring all your brothers and sisters back off the street, and not take an "hourly" ppay cut.

 

[uafa21]

aafc- Remenber ualdriver is more educated and technical than us. The pilot union made major blunder in offering to terminate their pension plan. The PBGC made sure it would happen. The union can fight all they want but guess who they will be fighting. The fed's.

The pbgc had an opportunity and took it. There are many Ua pilots making over $100,000 a year in retirement. This will be cut substantially. Ua has not paid into the fund for a long time, the pbgc was not going to let the fund totally dwindle away.

Per today's Denver Post, the pension for the pilots had the highest liability of all Ua's pension plans. Since the pilots union Ok'ed the termination of the plan, then maybe Ua could fund the other plans. I seriously don't think this will happen though, but wouldn't that be a slap in the face.

 

[aafsc]

aafc- Remenber ualdriver is more educated and technical than us. The pilot union made major blunder in offering to terminate their pension plan. The PBGC made sure it would happen. The union can fight all they want but guess who they will be fighting. The fed's.

The pbgc had an opportunity and took it. There are many Ua pilots making over $100,000 a year in retirement. This will be cut substantially. Ua has not paid into the fund for a long time, the pbgc was not going to let the fund totally dwindle away.

Per today's Denver Post, the pension for the pilots had the highest liability of all Ua's pension plans. Since the pilots union Ok'ed the termination of the plan, then maybe Ua could fund the other plans. I seriously don't think this will happen though, but wouldn't that be a slap in the face.

[post="234441"][/post]​

I don't think that would make them very happy.

 

[Borescope]

There are many Ua pilots making over $100,000 a year in retirement. This will be cut substantially.

[post="234441"][/post]​

My neighbor up the street retired in 2001. People in the neighborhood are already asking him if he is going to sell his house. We may have a fire sale here.

 

[737nCH11]

Ualdriver,

Once again I am amazed at your willingness to be sucked into a debate with these folks. You don't have to explain yourself to anyone. If any of these groups had a union half as strong as ALPA you wouldn't hear the perpetual wailing and gnashing of teeth. It's jealousy pure and simple.

The only folks I truly feel sorry for these days are the AMFA members. Not only are they taking huge pay cuts, but they are being outsourced in droves. Kind of a double whammy. That still doesn't mean that I care for them or their work ethic, but they are suffering more than any other group.

You whiny F/A's need to face reality. Your position was supposed to be filled by some giddy 20 year old who, after working for five years, found some rich husband and quit. It was not meant to be a career. Gripe about the changes all you want to, but it's still a better job than most. Try getting Pottery Barn to install a jumpseat where you can sit and read your Cosmo and see how far you get.

My resolution for 2005 is not to take any more crap from you malcontents. Happy New Year!!!

737

 

[aafsc]

Ualdriver,

Once again I am amazed at your willingness to be sucked into a debate with these folks. You don't have to explain yourself to anyone. If any of these groups had a union half as strong as ALPA you wouldn't hear the perpetual wailing and gnashing of teeth. It's jealousy pure and simple.

The only folks I truly feel sorry for these days are the AMFA members. Not only are they taking huge pay cuts, but they are being outsourced in droves. Kind of a double whammy. That still doesn't mean that I care for them or their work ethic, but they are suffering more than any other group.

You whiny F/A's need to face reality. Your position was supposed to be filled by some giddy 20 year old who, after working for five years, found some rich husband and quit. It was not meant to be a career. Gripe about the changes all you want to, but it's still a better job than most. Try getting Pottery Barn to install a jumpseat where you can sit and read your Cosmo and see how far you get.

My resolution for 2005 is not to take any more crap from you malcontents. Happy New Year!!!

737

[post="234449"][/post]​

Typical pilot.

 

[JAMAKE1]

737NCH11:

You're a real class act...

 

[spacewaitress]

737NCH11:

You're a real class act...

[post="234456"][/post]​

Sexist and misogynist comes to mind.

Let's get those cute young things back for coffee tea or me. And for God's sake, don't let them take any pride in themselves or the service they provide, they might get all uppity again and try to improve their lives and jobs.

Geez.

What I find interesting as reported by the NYTimes is that now that the PBGC has taken steps to take over the pilot pension it is the company that must fight it now, that is, if it chooses to. Now that will be interesting. Will the company do it?

The PBGC has thrown a huge wrench in these gears. The plot has thickened and ALPA's bluff has been called.

 

[Fly]

You people are sickening. How can any of you find pleasure in this? And World, you should be ashamed.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Happy New Year to you to Fly. You've been posting far too little of late. Glad I was able to illicit a response from you.

driver,
you are a young one. Now me thinks you don't represent the average UA pilot given your age. 25 years is a whole career.

I'm not rejoicing in anyone's failure or prospect thereof. What I am saying is that once again UAL has miscalculated what tit takes to turn the company around. The government will not provide the help UAL needs without extracting hugely punitive measures which will result in the destruction of the company through the same demoralizatoin of the company that is happening at US.

I do feel sorry for your folks but I think you are kidding yourselves if you think you will be allowed to limp along in bankruptcy much longer. The other airlines and the government recognize that the excess capacity and the number of carriers operating in bankruptcy (an unprecedented five) is dragging down those carriers that are trying to turn themselves around.

You will see AA, DL, and NW move to leadership positions in the industry. AA and NW are flush with cash and have recently renegotiated significant debt. DL has just obtained significant cost savings and has the most assets available to sell which could stabilize their balance sheet. Further, a shutdown of US will help DL more than any other carrier and DL has taken steps to ensure that it will capture much of the business which US will no longer be able to obtain should it fail.

UA and US' creditors only care about finding someone to take over those airlines' responsibilities. While the ATA bankruptcy resulted ina slugfest between LCCs, the solvent legacies including AA, DL, and NW will soon be pulling out their checkbooks to pick up some of the key industry assets. It's no surprise that DL chose GE to be one of its key financiers, the same company that is the largest creditor at UA and US; if you'll have a look at the agreement between DL and GE as published in DL's 8K, GE allows DL to use its funds to finance industry acquisitions. DL's agreement to allow GE to place RJs with DL indicates that GE is already thinking through where to place its assets.

The legacy carriers have tried to stabilize their businesses for 4 years now and four of them are finally figuring it out or at least have plans that creditors believe to be workable. UA should be recognized for doing what it needs to to become profitable on an operating basis but still has a balance sheet that is in shambles and will not be supported by any financiers; the other legacy carriers' balance sheets may not be much better but they don't have to fix them right away. CO is not bankrupt but is so leveraged and has such limited financial flexibility that it will not be able to control its outcome in the event consolidation begins in the industry.

History shows us that once consolidation begins in the industry, it starts a process that includes all carriers. You at UAL should keep a very close eye on the events at USAirways. If US ceases operations and is liquidated, the process of consolidation will be set in motion. UA's position in bankruptcy and its continuing inability to execute a viable business plan will leave it at the mercy of the viable legacy airlines that will have the resources necessary to control their destinies and will want to gain control of the vast resources UA currently controls. At the same time, creditors are demonstrating that they are willing to start redeploying assets where they can obtain a reasonable and certain return.

 

[ualdriver]

I'm not rejoicing in anyone's failure or prospect thereof. What I am saying is that once again UAL has miscalculated what tit takes to turn the company around. The government will not provide the help UAL needs without extracting hugely punitive measures which will result in the destruction of the company through the same demoralizatoin of the company that is happening at US.

Uh, yes you were rejoicing. Please re-read the post you wrote right after my last response. In particular, re-read the alphabet comment and the clock striking 12.

do feel sorry for your folks but I think you are kidding yourselves if you think you will be allowed to limp along in bankruptcy much longer. The other airlines and the government recognize that the excess capacity and the number of carriers operating in bankruptcy (an unprecedented five) is dragging down those carriers that are trying to turn themselves around.

First you say the above, then you say........

"2005 is now upon us. We will finally begin to see the restructuring and consolidation that experts predicted 25 years ago and which has been blocked for many of those years by the very government which is now willing to let market forces do their thing. The letter U will be eliminated from the US airline alphabet......."


Then you say "the government will recogize that the excess capacity.......that is dragging down carriers that are trying to turn themselves around.......So we won't be allowed to limp in bankruptcy much longer. So which is it World? Is the government going to recogize that there is too much excess capacity and not let us turn ourselves around in bankruptcy by interfering, or is the government going to let market forces "do their thing" and let UAL finish its course through bankruptcy. Please pick a point and debate it accordingly. I suggest the second point.

The legacy carriers have tried to stabilize their businesses for 4 years now..... but still has a balance sheet that is in shambles and will not be supported by any financiers;[

World, you are absolutely wrong and you have been told this repeatedly. UAL is having ZERO trouble finding "financiers" that want to fund our ongoing business.........so far. A terrorist attack, a plane crash, a job action could easily change that. But so far, no worries. When we're having trouble, I'll let you know.

The problem I have with your diatribes, World, is that you complain that the "free market" should let the airlines do their thing and for some reason I think there's a little bitterness in there too, but I haven't figured out why yet. Further, you parrot what everyone reads in the newspapers and hears on CNBC from this expert or that. I disagree with some of those assessments. I think most of those talking heads say that a capacity decrease is needed because the law of supply and demand will then bring prices up to where "legacy" hub and spoke carriers can make a profit. I argue that load factors are high so there is little or no overcapacity. The problem is that there is an overcapacity of carriers who are unable to make a profit on the fares people are currently willing to pay. When UAL exits bankruptcy (if they do), they will have a cost structure in place that will allow them to be profitable with expensive oil and low yields. Unfortunately for our competitors, the same may or may not be true, hence the "waiting and hoping" that we don't exit bankruptcy a lean machine that they will probably have to use Chapt 11 to compete with.

Anyway, let UAL follow the legal bankruptcy process and "market forces" will determine the outcome. UAL is following the law, to the letter. The same law that was used against UAL when countless numbers of our competitors used the bankruptcy process against us. Don't like the bankruptcy law? Call you senator. Complaining on this forum will do you no good.

 

[ualdriver]

Thats just rate of pay and hours worked. What about loss of holidays and holiday pay (double time and a half) on your few remaining holidays. In addition to health insurance, pensions, and retiree healthcare don't they also want to take vacation time away as well?

[post="234438"][/post]​

Loss of holiday and holiday pay results in paycuts that you're alluding to? Nope. There ain't that many holidays in the year. Sure wish I got holiday pay.

The problem with your argument AAFSC, is that you're including total benefits and then applying it to hourly wages, saying that because of that, certain groups will be taking 40%+ per hour pay cuts. Like I said before, we're ALL losing benefits. And the only group on the property that is losing benefits AND taking that much written about 40%+ per hour pay cut is ALPA. Again, you're barking up the wrong tree if you're looking for extra sympathy. And, as you posted before AAFSC, if the other employee groups are hurting as badly as you say they are, they have nothing to lose by looking for work elsewhere. I don't agree with that statement, but if that's what you believe, great.