BALLS of STEEL check in

[High Speed Steel]

If I remember correctly the IAM had language that allowed 100% outsourcing as long as NWA did not lay anybody off,but this did not take into account attrition through retirements deaths and other ways. So in other words the membership would decline annually. The language that the AMFA put in was a cap on outsourcing at 40% with a penalty if they went over. The iam had NO CAP so if you are going to tell the facts tell all of them so that everybody knows the truth. You are a tipical representative of the twu tell half the truth and spin the rest.

767, Maybe we can work together here. I'll accept your half truth and combine it with my half truth and together that should be enough of the whole truth to convince Hackman that AMFA, who was already crippled ( due to outsourced Overhaul work), maimed themselves in the end when they let their inflated egos take over and strike NW...

Help me remember here. Was it the cleaners and custodians that supported the strike, but didn't get the nod to come back per the strike settlement between NW and AMFA?

 

[Hackman]

767, Maybe we can work together here. I'll accept your half truth and combine it with my half truth and together that should be enough of the whole truth to convince Hackman that AMFA, who was already crippled ( due to outsourced Overhaul work), maimed themselves in the end when they let their inflated egos take over and strike NW...

Help me remember here. Was it the cleaners and custodians that supported the strike, but didn't get the nod to come back per the strike settlement between NW and AMFA?

Your not going to convince me of believing your TWu lying ass Speedy. YOU came on here an blamed AMFA for the outsourcing at NWA, when it was the IAm that started that ball rolling. So your looking for somebody to tell you what your supposed to know being your SO damned informed about what happened at NWA? Fat chance.

I supposed next your going to regurgitate some more old classic TWu lies about United Airlines and blame AMFA for losing the two maintenance bases in SFO and IND right? That was another good lie during the AMFA drive.

You really have some f'in gall in your WEAK attempt at debasing those who fought the fight brought to THEM by NWA management. This, when your TWu company union does nothing but roll over on it's back like the cheap compAAny whore that they are.

Maybe soon your TWu will show us that "Will Strike If Provoked" false pretense you clowns wear on your laughable TWu Stike Snake t-shirts. :blink:

Go sit in the truck stupid......

 

[High Speed Steel]

Your not going to convince me of believing your TWu lying ass Speedy. YOU came on here an blamed AMFA for the outsourcing at NWA, when it was the IAm that started that ball rolling. So your looking for somebody to tell you what your supposed to know being your SO damned informed about what happened at NWA? Fat chance.

I supposed next your going to regurgitate some more old classic TWu lies about United Airlines and blame AMFA for losing the two maintenance bases in SFO and IND right? That was another good lie during the AMFA drive.

You really have some f'in gall for your WEAK attempt at debasing those who fought the fight brought to THEM by NWA management. This, when your TWu company union does nothing but roll over on it's back like the cheap compAAny whore that they are.

Maybe soon your TWu will show us that "Will Strike If Provoked" false pretense you clowns wear on your laughable TWu Stike Snake t-shirts. :blink:

Go sit in the truck stupid......

Ah Hell Hackman, This is what I like about you. You haven't changed a bit. When boxed into a corner you come out with your cap guns a blaring...LOL

By the way. From the TWU members perspective, AMFA sucked at NW and United Hackman.... B)

Oh, and quit stealing my line...LOL

 

[odie01]

Ah Hell Hackman, This is what I like about you. You haven't changed a bit. When boxed into a corner you come out with your cap guns a blaring...LOL

By the way. From the TWU members perspective, AMFA sucked at NW and United Hackman.... B)

Oh, and quit stealing my line...LOL

The new 2011 twu "Will Strike If Provoked" shirt

 

[Hackman]

Ah Hell Hackman, This is what I like about you. You haven't changed a bit. When boxed into a corner you come out with your cap guns a blaring...LOL

By the way. From the TWU members perspective, AMFA sucked at NW and United Hackman.... B)

Oh, and quit stealing my line...LOL

Well unlike you your company union, I don't tell constant lies and then expect those same lies, reclaimed to tell again a few years later, and hope they will stick. Your family has to be proud of being guided by an upstanding BS'er like yourself. Nice job.

The day a TWu fool such as you can box me in corner is the day I'll don a TWu Strike Snake t- shirt and belly up to the bar for some free CompAAny booze and tell myself if I just bend over one more time I'll be real TWu Company Union leAAder...... :huh:

"AMFA sucked" Holy Sh*t Speedy!!! Now that's about as deep as a TWu Mudd Puddle.... sheer genius Ill say.....

 

[767 mechanic]

767, Maybe we can work together here. I'll accept your half truth and combine it with my half truth and together that should be enough of the whole truth to convince Hackman that AMFA, who was already crippled ( due to outsourced Overhaul work), maimed themselves in the end when they let their inflated egos take over and strike NW...

Help me remember here. Was it the cleaners and custodians that supported the strike, but didn't get the nod to come back per the strike settlement between NW and AMFA?

Speedy tell me what half truth that I am telling and be specific,if that is possible for you. The fact that work was outsourced by NWA under the IAM. The fact that the 2001 contract by the AMFA was an improvement over the IAM contract and that they got more back than anybody could have believed. The twu on the other hand waited until the AMFA surpassed anything that the twu could have gotten on their own. The president for local 567 said that we would be lucky if we ended the contract with $29 an hour before the AMFA got $35 plus an hour for their members and we road their coat tails. After the twu came back with a contract that was a mirror image of the NWA contract this same pres had the gall to say that they went in and were fighting for the membership. From what I understand dennis birdshit was telling the membership the same thing in TUL. This tells me that the twu international was telling their cronies to spread the word because they are to weak to neg on their own. Oh and the local pres at 567 for the twu is presently incarserated in the TX prison system for the manufacture and delivery of meth and the poss of GHB (the date rape drug). I don't care what an individual sticks up his or her own nose,but when you are promoting the rape of women I am drawing the line there and hope that he is spending alot of time picking up the soup in the shower. I am sorry that I got off subject here. So I will get back to what we were originally talking about. The afl-cio unions did everything that they could do to assist NWA break the AMFA. Look at the iam doing scab work by deicing planes during the strike on the promise of NWA to allow them to keep the work after the strike was over and if I remember correctly they also did AMFAs push backs. After the strike was over,NWA outsourced the work and the iam cried foul saying that it was their work which was a lie. As far as ual the twu and you and your buddies lied many times about the AMFA outsourcing the bases in indy and oakland. The fact of the matter is that iam was on the property when that happened. It is easy enough to proove me a liar on this if I am really a liar. Post the link from the NMB web site when AMFA took over and a link to a newspaper article that says when the stations shut down,but for some reason I think you won't do this. You will spin it by saying that I should post it or something like that. Maybe you will ignore this all together. As far as the numbers go what would the twu do if the company wanted to play hardball with them by outsourcing 53% of their jobs? Would they roll over and cry or would they fight? I think they would cry. So please proove me a liar on any of my statements here or even a half truth if you can.

 

[Bob Owens]

767, Maybe we can work together here. I'll accept your half truth and combine it with my half truth and together that should be enough of the whole truth to convince Hackman that AMFA, who was already crippled ( due to outsourced Overhaul work), maimed themselves in the end when they let their inflated egos take over and strike NW...

Help me remember here. Was it the cleaners and custodians that supported the strike, but didn't get the nod to come back per the strike settlement between NW and AMFA?

Putting the labels aside and recognizing that we are talking about people here lets say the company proposal was, effective the day of signing they woulld farm out and lay off 60% of our workforce are you saying that we would be "letting inflated egos take over" if the 60% that would effectively be voting their jobs away and then some voted to strike instead?

The fact is those people, union men and women, voted to strike, the offer really left them no choice, I would hope that even you would vote to strike before you would vote away your own , of 60% of your coworkers jobs. But then again, maybe you wouldnt, maybe you would want to put this all in your rear view mirror and do whats best for American Airlines even if it meant you were volunteering for the unemployment line instead of a picket line.

Drop the NWA/AMFA strike example because you are making yourself look stupid by claiming they should have accepted the companys deal rather than strike

.

 

[787nightmare]

Putting the labels aside and recognizing that we are talking about people here lets say the company proposal was, effective the day of signing they woulld farm out and lay off 60% of our workforce are you saying that we would be "letting inflated egos take over" if the 60% that would effectively be voting their jobs away and then some voted to strike instead?

The fact is those people, union men and women, voted to strike, the offer really left them no choice, I would hope that even you would vote to strike before you would vote away your own , of 60% of your coworkers jobs. But then again, maybe you wouldnt, maybe you would want to put this all in your rear view mirror and do whats best for American Airlines even if it meant you were volunteering for the unemployment line instead of a picket line.

Drop the NWA/AMFA strike example because you are making yourself look stupid by claiming they should have accepted the companys deal rather than strike

.

Bob...that's what I like about you. While I may not always agree with everything you say...you will always call out ridiculous remarks. And Speedy never disappoints.
While Speedy comes here and attempts to come across as cool as a cucumber, totally boned up on his info/history, he has never been able to defend the TWUs position or accomplishments.
What's beyond belief to me...is that there are actually a/p mechs at AA suport this worthless dues collecting, "better vote yes brother, it's all we're gettin'" piss poor excuse of a union.

I KNOW many exNWA mechs. And they would rather go nonunion than go back to the IAM(marginally better than TWU-but definitely argueable)...though many are stuck with the worthless IAM at Boeing, like me. Our contract at Boeing, like at all airlines represented by the IAM, has MAJOR holes blown all in it. And the Co simply easily navigates all through them at will. When will mechs realize that LANGUAGE is as important as the top out number you finally negotiate?
Which, of course, is why Steenland and other airline executives KNEW they had better do something about AMFA before this thing gained steam and swept the ind! But you knew that, right Speedy?

 

[High Speed Steel]

Putting the labels aside and recognizing that we are talking about people here lets say the company proposal was, effective the day of signing they woulld farm out and lay off 60% of our workforce are you saying that we would be "letting inflated egos take over" if the 60% that would effectively be voting their jobs away and then some voted to strike instead?

The fact is those people, union men and women, voted to strike, the offer really left them no choice, I would hope that even you would vote to strike before you would vote away your own , of 60% of your coworkers jobs. But then again, maybe you wouldnt, maybe you would want to put this all in your rear view mirror and do whats best for American Airlines even if it meant you were volunteering for the unemployment line instead of a picket line.

Drop the NWA/AMFA strike example because you are making yourself look stupid by claiming they should have accepted the companys deal rather than strike

.

Well Bob, I don't see where the AMFA really gained anything with this strike. There were 4400 that walked, with 400 mechanics jobs lost and 800 cleaners jobs lost that is a total of 1200 jobs lost due to the settlement, some were offered layoff status with severance and some up to 10 weeks severance to resign, and then there were some that were just "#### out of luck!" There were many scabs that crossed and became employed at NW throughout this period and an additional sad fact in the settlement AMFA lost their closed shop status, which meant not all were required to join the association though there were later reports that AMFA offered their representation to the scabs...

You post as if you find honor in what AMFA was forced to accept in settlement with this failed strike, why is this BOB? You're beginning to make me a little nervous if you think this was some great achievement, I just hope you are not so engrossed with supporting AMFA that you would consider leading us to the same conclusion?

Stupid is as Stupid does....especially arguing over topics no longer relevant...did I just say that? :blink:

 

[lineguy43]

Well Bob, I don't see where the AMFA really gained anything with this strike. There were 4400 that walked, with 400 mechanics jobs lost and 800 cleaners jobs lost that is a total of 1200 jobs lost due to the settlement, some were offered layoff status with severance and some up to 10 weeks severance to resign, and then there were some that were just "#### out of luck!" There were many scabs that crossed and became employed at NW throughout this period and an additional sad fact in the settlement AMFA lost their closed shop status, which meant not all were required to join the association though there were later reports that AMFA offered their representation to the scabs...

You post as if you find honor in what AMFA was forced to accept in settlement with this failed strike, why is this BOB? You're beginning to make me a little nervous if you think this was some great achievement, I just hope you are not so engrossed with supporting AMFA that you would consider leading us to the same conclusion?

Stupid is as Stupid does....especially arguing over topics no longer relevant...did I just say that? :blink:

Hey ignoramus since you seem to know so much about AMFA why don't you tell me why we went on strike? I only had almost 20 years and NWA's offer would have had me out of a job. Wanting to can 53% of the membership and a 25% or so cut in pay for those who remained let me ask you einstein if this kind of "offer" was brought to YOUR membership what would you have done? I will tell you this kind of offer would not be brought to YOUR membership because the TWu is more of a bootlicking company lapdog union than even the IAM is. NWA didn't spend millions and almost 2 years recruiting scabs if they had any intention of negotiating in good faith. They were hell bent on busting AMFA with the help of the IAM and the BUSH administration and the FAA for starters. I never saw anything like what I saw during our strike. I can tell you what NW would never get away with today what they did in 2005. The FAA is a totally different animal now then they were then. Of course thanks to mechanics who are willing to scab helped but the ones they recruited pretty much sucked but the original NW guys who crossed while most of them didn't have the greatest rep help NW limp along. The big thing I fault AMFA for is what you just said in that they tried to recruit the scabs after the strike was over. Sounds like you are proud that happened to us. I can understand the IAM having being sore about losing the mechanics but for a union any union to not only cross a picket line but to actively seek to do mechanic work during an active strike says it all. The IAM, TWu and the IBT totally suck thats why UAL mechanics look like Linda Blair in the exorcist with their heads spinning around wondering which union to go to next. Well proves my point that we mechanics will always continue to be our own worst enemy. Actually in all these years the only job that seems like you can get that has a big paycheck with very little in the way of skills is a union official. Where else can a baggage handler make well into 6 figures with nothing more than trying to peddle crappy contracts to the lowly membership.

 

[Interested]

I remember getting a recruitment card for employment in the mail while that mess was going on at NWA. Never did send it in.

 

[Bob Owens]

Well Bob, I don't see where the AMFA really gained anything with this strike. There were 4400 that walked, with 400 mechanics jobs lost and 800 cleaners jobs lost that is a total of 1200 jobs lost due to the settlement, some were offered layoff status with severance and some up to 10 weeks severance to resign, and then there were some that were just "#### out of luck!" There were many scabs that crossed and became employed at NW throughout this period and an additional sad fact in the settlement AMFA lost their closed shop status, which meant not all were required to join the association though there were later reports that AMFA offered their representation to the scabs...

You post as if you find honor in what AMFA was forced to accept in settlement with this failed strike, why is this BOB? You're beginning to make me a little nervous if you think this was some great achievement, I just hope you are not so engrossed with supporting AMFA that you would consider leading us to the same conclusion?

Stupid is as Stupid does....especially arguing over topics no longer relevant...did I just say that? :blink:

So you are saying that if AA offered us the same deal, that for the good of the TWU, you would recommend that our members vote YES?

Now I know why you post under an alias.

Its pathetic that you claim to be a unionist and you dont see what happened at NWA for what it was. Even the UAW saw it for what it was, and they arent in this industry. It was a one shot deal where the Airline Industry realized it would be more benificial to "make an example" of a group of workers, no matter what the cost was, because overall it would help set wages back across the whole industry for many years into the future. They capitalized on the sectarian divisions within labor and went after the newest, most disruptive entrant. One that defied the panic of the post 9-11 fallout and refused to give into unilateral demands. Today NWA no longer exists, that shows you how much "Capital" was willing to invest in busting a union, and the members in those unions that helped bust AMFA will no longer be union(except ALPA), how well have they fared in the end? AMFA however does still exist, and their members at SWA make around $10/hr more than we do.

People like you work in the interests of the carriers when you keep bringing up the AMFA/NWA fiasco in an attempt to convince us that we should take heed lest we become the next "example". You promote cowardice and leave out the pertinent facts of what happened, whats changed, and what the true objectives were back in 2005, we would expect the company to do that, but its not expected of a true unionist.

As an Aircraft mechanic I am proud of what AMFA did in 2000 for the mechanics at NWA, we all benifited from it, they raised all our hopes and expectations, and we were able to reach most of those expectations, briefly, but the benifit was short lived because we all fell one by one because, following the topic, we collectively didnt have balls of steel, but of clay, and their careers paid the ultimate price. Our "careers" havent fared much better, we earn a fraction of what we used do and our standards of living have plummetted. We make all the same sacrifices but get paid a lot less for them. What happened post 9-11 was sickening as the Airlines cashed in of the death and destruction and the Unions, led by people who didnt see their wages slashed or benifits eliminated did nothing but fall over themselves making sure their members gave the airlines everythig they wanted in a desperate attempt to shore up their dues revenue (so they would not face job loss, pay cuts or the loss oif benifits themselves).

The fact is whether you are an AMFA mechanic at Southwest, an IAM mechanic at USAIR, an IBT mechanic at UAL/CAl or even a AMP card signer under the TWU at AA we had better start sticking together when it comes to fighting these corporations, not only with each other across company lines but other workgroups as well or things will never get better. We have to realize as workers the real opposition to getting fair wages is not (or should not be) another union, its the company.

 

[DallasConehead]

It's my understanding that the differences between the two situations is that NWA had a very substantial proportion of its maintenance contracted out. Whose fault that was isn't relevant, to me, this thread has been spun/hijacked.

The fact is that we at AA don't have that amount of contracting out, so at this point we aren't on as slippery a slope as NWA mechanics were. But, if we accepted a contract where allot of work went outside; there is no telling what the company would try to do next time. But I can make a pretty good guess, NWA made the model.

The question has to be is how to strike a balance with regards to overhaul rates and line rates. Overhaul competes with the Timcos of the world and the line competes with the SWAs of the world. Two very different pay structures.

How do we do this? I believe the committee has to make the argument not only to the company, but its membership and the mediator that the cost of overhaul should be in line with those that compete with our OH, possibly slighty more since the product is superior. There has to be line rates in line with other domestic line operations, especially in the high cost areas. I for one see the inefficiencies in the line operation every day, and would be willing to step up to the plate to give more productivity for more pay and benefits. I can’t speak to the inefficiencies in OH, I don’t work there, but I can guess the same things occur there as the line with regards to how much product each person produces and adds to the bottom line.

 

[Bob Owens]

The question has to be is how to strike a balance with regards to overhaul rates and line rates. Overhaul competes with the Timcos of the world and the line competes with the SWAs of the world. Two very different pay structures.

Thats not really true, Airline OH pay rates do not have to be competitive with the Timcos etc because its not what Timco pays their mechanics thats relevant, its what Timco charges the carriers for that labor and the services they provide that has some relevance. Other issues are quality, and the ability to control the process. While no other carriers does the scope of OH that AA does most do some, including SWA which is going to be starting up another line due to the purchase of AirTran, and those OH mechanics make as much if not more than our OH guys do.

We've asked the question but the answer has never been given.We assume that our labor rates in OH make it uncompetative because the company always cites our higher labor costs, some expand on that, but the company has never claimed that doing what they do in house costs them more than it would if it was sent out. Nor are they willing to reveal at what rate it would be.The recent WSJ article on Aircraft painting seems support that doing our own work saves AA a ton of money. As far as becoming a Timco and doing work for other carriers our labor costs may make that business an unprofitable one, but as Crandall said many years ago, AA shouldnt be building facilities, training and staffing to maintain competitors airplanes.

 

[DallasConehead]

Thats not really true, Airline OH pay rates do not have to be competitive with the Timcos etc because its not what Timco pays their mechanics thats relevant, its what Timco charges the carriers for that labor and the services they provide that has some relevance. Other issues are quality, and the ability to control the process. While no other carriers does the scope of OH that AA does most do some, including SWA which is going to be starting up another line due to the purchase of AirTran, and those OH mechanics make as much if not more than our OH guys do.

We've asked the question but the answer has never been given.We assume that our labor rates in OH make it uncompetative because the company always cites our higher labor costs, some expand on that, but the company has never claimed that doing what they do in house costs them more than it would if it was sent out. Nor are they willing to reveal at what rate it would be.The recent WSJ article on Aircraft painting seems support that doing our own work saves AA a ton of money. As far as becoming a Timco and doing work for other carriers our labor costs may make that business an unprofitable one, but as Crandall said many years ago, AA shouldnt be building facilities, training and staffing to maintain competitors airplanes.

You and I have had this conversation before.

It sounds like your position is that OH should be paid the same as people out on the line since SWA can do it. Hey, more power to you, I applaud your efforts and your views on the value our product with regards to OH. You don’t have to prove it to me or anyone else on this forum. Since the union is the moving party and the company is happy with status quo or less, our negotiating committee has to be prepared to prove what you are saying. Or, can you just bring up the WSJ piece to make your case? If the WSJ can do it, why can’t our own union make the case on every aspect? There is a lot more to the whole picture then a paint job.

So, are you ready to prove it?

You say that you have asked but not given the answer, if your going to rely on the company to tell you how much it costs, then you are beaten already. If they move their lips they are lying. We the membership have the right to demand our negotiating committee do what it takes to win for us a fair and equitable agreement.

Are you people doing that?