AWA ALPA Thread 10/12 to 10/18

[EastUS]

"I don't think one of us has said that we "won",

I suggest you look at Junebugs posts from this summer. Seems to me there are references as to that very thing. I know all about happiness, 3rd merger here.

The statement's essentially true, in that a goodly number of west posters have crowed over their initial success at seniority assault. It hasn't been any case of merely "one of us" by any means. I can't begin to count all the west posts that essentially translate down to "Nyaah Nyaah!!". Heck, we've all even seen "I won the lottery!!!" on these boards, which I truly feel is the most honest statement of sentiments out west.

For me? = The situational dynamics seem to have evolved as follows:

1) Alpo's monster lab produced a really, really good one this time....not that I'm at all surprised, given the sum of their previous great works.
2) There was much rejoicing in the west, and complete shock, disbelief, and outright rage in the east.
3) West justifications flew about in almost casual glee: "the arbitrator said"/"binding arbitration"/"yo momma"/etc. Any east attempts at initiating compromise after the fact were laughingly dismissed, as I can personally attest to.
4) The east finally dug in their heels for once.
5) West laughingly responded with "You can't do that!....You'll never even get 200 cards"/etc.

6) The east now looks perfectly capable of stifling the laughter, most importantly, at Alpo.

7) The west position now appears to be to amp up their insults...and general issuances of "But, but, but...you just can't do that!!!"...."criminy...maybe, just maybe you really can", and yet; even the most reasonable west posters still refuse to consider any negotiation..which is, and always seems to be the "fault" of the east in some bizarre western perversion of logic.

If the St Nic gift to the west wasn't so utterly irresistable to them...we'd all actually be talking now on some level...but....that cookie jar's apparently just too delicious. Kindly spare us all out here any more BS about "fair"/whatever, and let's actually speak seriously.

In any case? = We've all got a major mess to address, and all Alpo's been doing is adding more fuel to a wildfire of their own making. It's time for a real change.

 

[P51Pilot]

I don't see an opportunity for compromise there.

I can live with that, indefinitely if need be.

 

[Cactus737]

Sigh...Guess that leaves you guys, at best, in the position of "Having your Nic...and eating it too". I've surprisingly little sympathy for your plight there.

I don't need sympathy. Heck, I'm still young and can go work somewhere else. Whipsawing will be much more your problem than mine.

Cactus737: "Funny you should mention that, because that's exactly what many US Airways pilots (furloughed and active) did in 2004. I know many of them and, at the time, they didn't reasonably expect to ever see A330 captain." And...ummm....your AWA group EVER expected/had "career expectations"/even night fantasies about holding ANY A330 position before this "merger"? Hmmm...must be some subtle point that I'm again missing.

No we didn't. And if you balance that out with all of the other crap that we didn't "expect" before the merger, we're still in the hole. But we did have a large merger fund (unlike your MEC who had to impose an ongoing assessment), which speaks to our "expectation" that we would be in a merger.

 

[EastUS]

I don't need sympathy. Heck, I'm still young and can go work somewhere else. Whipsawing will be much more your problem than mine.
No we didn't. And if you balance that out with all of the other crap that we didn't "expect" before the merger, we're still in the hole. But we did have a large merger fund (unlike your MEC who had to impose an ongoing assessment), which speaks to our "expectation" that we would be in a merger.

"I don't need sympathy." Good.

"I'm still young and can go work somewhere else." So..have some patience with life then.

"And if you balance that out with all of the other crap that we didn't "expect" before the merger, we're still in the hole" Understood tenfold. Welcome to airline life's industrial strength insanity. We've all seen several rodeos out east. None of this nightmare's especially great for any of us currently stuck in it...on either side of the Mississippi.

 

[luvn737s]

For me? = The situational dynamics seem to have evolved as follows:

So "situational dynamics" call for situational ethics?

1) Alpo's monster lab produced a really, really good one this time....not that I'm at all surprised, given the sum of their previous great works.

ALPA gave the east the tools via negotiations and arbitration. It was the east that tried to use a hammer as a screwdriver.

2) There was much rejoicing in the west, and complete shock, disbelief, and outright rage in the east.

Only disbelief in that they didn't get their way.

3) West justifications flew about in almost casual glee: "the arbitrator said"/"binding arbitration"/"yo momma"/etc. Any east attempts at initiating compromise after the fact were laughingly dismissed, as I can personally attest to.

Can you honestly say that if the east were the "victor" they would consider any compromise. The concession stand was closed. So was the help desk.

4) The east finally dug in their heels for once.

Unfortunately, to no profitible end.

5) West laughingly responded with "You can't do that!....You'll never even get 200 cards"/etc.

6) The east now looks perfectly capable of stifling the laughter, most importantly, at Alpo.

7) The west position now appears to be to amp up their insults...and general issuances of "But, but, but...you just can't do that!!!"...."criminy...maybe, just maybe you really can", and yet; even the most reasonable west posters still refuse to consider any negotiation..which is, and always seems to be the "fault" of the east in some bizarre western perversion of logic.

Ok, then have your vote. But it is the moral responsibility of USAPA to make sure it is abundantly clear to both east and west that should neither ALPA or USAPA garner 50+1% then there will be NO REPRESENTATION. USAPA is starting this war and will be forced to live with it's consequences.

If the St Nic gift to the west wasn't so utterly irresistable to them...we'd all actually be talking now on some level...but....that cookie jar's apparently just too delicious. Kindly spare us all out here any more BS about "fair"/whatever, and let's actually speak seriously.

Again, where would the east be if the tables were turned? What is their track record on compromise when they hold all the cards?

In any case? = We've all got a major mess to address, and all Alpo's been doing is adding more fuel to a wildfire of their own making. It's time for a real change.

Can anyone on the east accept any responsibility for this, or is that beyond their comprehension?

 

[AWA320]

I can live with that, indefinitely if need be.

With that statement it's clear that everything that the east employees touch they destroy.

 

[EastUS]

AWA2320: "With that statement it's clear that everything that the east employees touch they destroy."
Funny thing is...I feel exactly that same way about Alpo.

Ok, then have your vote.

Thanks for your blessing.

 

[AWA320]

AWA2320: "With that statement it's clear that everything that the east employees touch they destroy."
Funny thing is...I feel exactly that same way about Alpo.
Thanks for your blessing.

I see as usual you seek to blame everone and everything but the real problem. ALPA is not the reason nor the cause for your actions, you are (east pilot group by and thru their mec). Be true to thy self East!!!

 

[Cactus737]

What is their track record on compromise when they hold all the cards?

Considering that they won't compromise when they don't hold ANY of the cards, I can't imagine it's any better when they do. That's why they're so ineffective. The only thing not compromising gets them is the right to say that they didn't compromise. Of course, they didn't deliver their pilots anything either.

 

[Ifyoudon'tlikeitquit!]

The CAL pilot was dissenting on the placement of the MDA pilots. So far I haven't seen anything from the UAL pilot. Or did I miss his attachment?

No attachment needed since he didn't have a dissenting opinion on any part of the decision. I know the USAPA guys aren't big on facts, research and the mechanics of our legal system but I would have thought you had at least read the arbitration decision.

Page 1 (I know, a crazy place to start): Opinion and Award by the ALPA Arbitration Board: George Nicolau, Chairman; Captain Stephen Gillen, Pilot Neutral; Captain James P. Brucia, Pilot Neutral.

Page 33: The undersigned, acting as Chairman of the Board......and with the Board having duly heard and considered the proofs and allegations of the Parties.

Concurring and Dissenting Opinion: James P. Brucia: I have elected to confirm my concurrence with most matters decided upon by the Arbitration Board while dissenting from the decision of my fellow members of the Board on one important aspect of the Award .......(The MDA pilots placement)

I guess your lawyer didn't bother explaining that to you? Did your retainer fee run out?

 

[Cactus737]

It has nothing to do with MDA pilots, it has to do with the placement of *some* furloughed pilots. Not all furloughed pilots were at MDA.

 

[pilot]

I see as usual you seek to blame everone and everything but the real problem. ALPA is not the reason nor the cause for your actions, you are (east pilot group by and thru their mec). Be true to thy self East!!!

The REAL problem is ALPA. We're at each others throats aren't we? Other ALPA pilots were and continue to drool over the thought of us liquidating. This "union" has put into place policies and procedures that have resulted in just what we're going through at this moment.

Each side can squeal all they want regarding Nic and the resultant crap that it has wrought. But the bottom line is that the merger policy, that did not utilize the Allegheny/Mohawk LPP's, has brought this "union" to the brink. Along with the other nonsensical policies that tried to appease everyone and resulted in splitting each pilot group into people who actually hope for bad things to happen to other pilot groups if it helps them.

Imagine what a national seniority list would have done to unite the pilots of this country. It's almost as if ALPA is working in concert with the managements of this business.

Of course, that won't happen now. In fact, I cannot imagine how this "selfishness" problem is going to be solved. But I do know one thing for certain: The managements of this industry are dancing around the maypole as we continue the infighting and threatening.

BTW, the pilots of the independent unions in this country have the best pay rates and work rules of anyone. I wonder why that is?

pilot

 

[hp_fa]

Pilot, assuming arguendo that your theory is valid, dosen't it still come back to the individual MEC's (especially East) who:

1. Voted to adopt the ALPA merger guidelines;
2. Failed to change any flawed guidelines;
3. Voted in Woerth and Prater; and,
4 Negotiated a merger integration that ultimately relied on ALPA's merger policy and arbitration policy to attempt to resolve any unresolved issues.

We keep coming back to the discussion that many East pilots have said they had long standing issues with ALPA that pre-date the merger, yet nothing seemingly caused enough of an issue for East to even attempt to oust ALPA until after Nicolau. I just can't get past my theory that had Nicolau ruled in favor of East that none of the current turmoil, from the East folks, would be occurring because, in large part, ALPA would then be defending your position in the current situation. After all, ALPA National is nothing more then a centralized association of many smaller local associations and all of it's "power" results from the local associations?

 

[exB717Flyer]

BTW, the pilots of the independent unions in this country have the best pay rates and work rules of anyone. I wonder why that is?

I wonder why you don't see the obvious. Those airlines didn't go through bankruptcy.

 

[AWA320]

The REAL problem is ALPA. We're at each others throats aren't we? Other ALPA pilots were and continue to drool over the thought of us liquidating. This "union" has put into place policies and procedures that have resulted in just what we're going through at this moment.

Each side can squeal all they want regarding Nic and the resultant crap that it has wrought. But the bottom line is that the merger policy, that did not utilize the Allegheny/Mohawk LPP's, has brought this "union" to the brink. Along with the other nonsensical policies that tried to appease everyone and resulted in splitting each pilot group into people who actually hope for bad things to happen to other pilot groups if it helps them.

Imagine what a national seniority list would have done to unite the pilots of this country. It's almost as if ALPA is working in concert with the managements of this business.

Of course, that won't happen now. In fact, I cannot imagine how this "selfishness" problem is going to be solved. But I do know one thing for certain: The managements of this industry are dancing around the maypole as we continue the infighting and threatening.

BTW, the pilots of the independent unions in this country have the best pay rates and work rules of anyone. I wonder why that is?

pilot

Pilot,

ALPA is not the problem unless you consider yourself the problem!!! For over 16 years the current merger policy has been effect. Any pilot group and I do mean any has had at the very least that amount of time to bring forth to the floor a change. That was never done, WHY??

Now the game has been in session for 16 years with out a complaint for ANY side. You can not cliam foul after the game is over and beg for a retry. Now regarding a national seniority list yeah it all sounds real good but ask yourself why no union has adopted the policy!!!