AWA ALPA Press Release

[Callsign_Cactus]

This could have been resolved with fences only. Why tack the top 500 east on top??? WINDFALL :angry:

I will fully support any movement to correct this injustice. Let us all band together and give the West pilots their due. Ok, someone give me a count..I am a little unclear..how many widebody aircraft did the West own, or have on order...it is not clear to me? Let us fix this right now.

Greeter.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

Thanks for being so concerned Phoenix.

I will not hold my breath, but I will be laughing my ass off for the next 4 + years while these arrogant pricks work slave-like B-scale wages and suffer with FAR scheduling. Their fantasy of overturning the award is pathetic. It is what I would call an ideological wet dream with a premature climax.

The cunning strategic move ( ) of delaying implementation is equally pathetic and profoundly demonstrates the depth of irresponsibility and lack of leadership or foresight of the east MEC. Their pilots will suffer immensely over the next 4,5,6,7 years under LOA 93.

Take a deep breath. Remember... it was binding arbitration.

 

[767jetz]

My point: Your "career expectation" is only good through the close of business on any given day.

Exactly. I don't disagree. So the question is which day? As per ALPA merger policy, the only career expectation that matters is the one that existed at "the close of business" the day before the merger. Not the expectation 20 years ago or the expectation the day after the merger.

And by the way, I do think there is merit to the idea of a national seniority list with standardized pay for years of service, regardless of aircraft or airline. That way, a pilot always knows what he/she is worth at any given year and at any airline. Perhaps if the industry were ever re-regulated. But we are a long way from that ever being reality. So we have no choice but to deal with the current reality.

Just because ALPA has a written merger policy, inspired by United Airlines pilots, doesn't make it right. I believe it is "nonsense" and USAirways/America West Pilots are but the first merger to reveal the true shortcomings of that policy.

Fine. That is your opinion. There are many others within ALPA, a majority in fact, who believe it is not nonsense. You are entitled to your opinion as are others. We do live in a democratic society.

If AAA thought the merger policy and process was unfair, why did they submit to binding arbitration? In fact, why did they even stay with ALPA this long? Why not start your own union, with rules and merger guidance that was more to your liking, years ago. It is a bit disingenuous to force the process to it's final and binding stage knowing the rules and risks involved, and then say you don't like the process only when it doesn't come out the way you wanted it to. At any point you could have compromised and avoided the arbitration all together.

And as a side note, back in 2000 none of the AAA pilots wanted fences that kept them out of UA's 777's and 747's. But now it seems they are all crying for separate lists and fences forever.

Many First Officers might not have upgraded to Captain prior to retirement, but they certainly should have that opportunity before someone that was hired in 2005.

Again, this is an opinion, and and it is not one shared by a majority of the 60,000 ALPA members. We'll just have to agree to disagree. They (AWA) certainly should have the opportunity to upgrade to captain first because that is what they brought to the table prior to the merger. It is not their fault that AAA pilots had such a difficult and stagnant career prior to the merger. We all empathize with the AAA pilots for that. But no one wants to lay down their own career to make you whole again. No one sacrificed their career to make the EAL or PAA or TWA pilots whole again after their turbulent path.

We'll just have to let the legal process run its course. I know you wouldn't give up your seniority without a fight. Neither will the USAirways Pilots.

With this I agree. The legal process will unfold. IMO the AAA pilots will not ever be happy or satisfied with any of the possible legal outcomes.

IMO it would be better in the long run to negotiate a joint contract where pay and work rules can be significantly restored to improve the quality of life of everyone. I'd be willing to bet that AWA would even agree to additional compensation for the AAA pilots with long lengths of service to compensate them for years of stagnation, as this would come out of the company's hide and not their own.

And yes, I would fight for my seniority, but differently. You see, to me seniority is not a number, but a relative position and reasonable and conservative expectation of the future based on current circumstances. (Not what existed 5 years ago or my hope of what it will be in 20 years.) I personally never have and never will support DOH or LOS integrations unless and until we have a national seniority list.

Good luck, and thanks for exchanging ideas and opinions without the childish name-calling that certain others here seem to embrace.

767jetz

 

[Hawkhunter]

Thanks for being so concerned Phoenix.

I will not hold my breath, but I will be laughing my ass off for the next 4 + years while these arrogant pricks work slave-like B-scale wages and suffer with FAR scheduling. Their fantasy of overturning the award is pathetic. It is what I would call an ideological wet dream with a premature climax.

The cunning strategic move ( ) of delaying implementation is equally pathetic and profoundly demonstrates the depth of irresponsibility and lack of leadership or foresight of the east MEC. Their pilots will suffer immensely over the next 4,5,6,7 years under LOA 93.

At least we wont have to fly with arrogant pricks like you. We wont suffer as much as you think pal.

Who knows - ask the great predictor Nostradamus.

I have actually changed my mind on the Nicolau list and would prefer an alternative outcome - staple east.

Seriously though, at this point it will be better to just let the east suffer under their pitiful contract for another 4 years, clamoring after all the coveted attrition . Watching the east MEC suffer through 4 more years of LOA93 is the only form of redemption for the west I can come up with. It will be a heavy price to pay to the tune of hundreds of millions $.

The fools don't even know only half of their attrition occurs in captain ranks, whereas AWAs attrition in the captain ranks is over 90%.

Sorry to tell you this but your proposal would have stapled 21 year East pilots. Tell me again how you tried to work with us. You really dont understand attrition, do you fool?



See you boys at the Lagoon!
[/quote]

Maybe, but not for 5 to 7 years.

Right back at ya you arrogant prick. You mental midgets don't even understand the word windfall let alone had one cast upon you. You deserved much worse in my opionion. 500 + east guys having sole occupation on top of the list is the real windfall here - write that down.

Stop banting over your superior experience, sweat equity, and all that other BS, this is a new airline that AWA pilots have just as much deserved credit as your pathetic career with the old US.

Calling me drunk or insane makes you feel better but certainly is not the truth. Truth - there is another word that easties seem to have a hard time understanding.

Your anger really upsets me. I guess if you can justify a scab you can justify about anything.

 

[Phoenix]

Thanks for being so concerned Phoenix.

Concern? Its "binding." Get it.

I will not hold my breath, but I will be laughing my ass off for the next 4 + years while these arrogant pricks work slave-like B-scale wages and suffer with FAR scheduling. Their fantasy of overturning the award is pathetic. It is what I would call an ideological wet dream with a premature climax.

The cunning strategic move ( ) of delaying implementation is equally pathetic and profoundly demonstrates the depth of irresponsibility and lack of leadership or foresight of the east MEC. Their pilots will suffer immensely over the next 4,5,6,7 years under LOA 93.

You have an irrational anger at the folks that are keeping you from joining a seniority list. The only reason you could have such anger is if they are causing you great financial harm by 1) reducing your pay now or 2) by preventing great economic advantage that would occur automaticaly upon the seniority list implementation.

It is obvious you are beig prevented from cashing in on a windfall that you think is yours. Otherwise why would you have such anger and ill will toward fellow pilots?

You apparently think arbitration is a lottery system. And the ALPA EC seems to think so also.

The EC is a plutocracy, and you are bitching because you can't cash in your lottery ticket?

 

[EastUS]

Thanks for being so concerned Phoenix.

I will not hold my breath, but I will be laughing my ass off for the next 4 + years while these arrogant pricks work slave-like B-scale wages and suffer with FAR scheduling. Their fantasy of overturning the award is pathetic. It is what I would call an ideological wet dream with a premature climax.

The cunning strategic move ( ) of delaying implementation is equally pathetic and profoundly demonstrates the depth of irresponsibility and lack of leadership or foresight of the east MEC. Their pilots will suffer immensely over the next 4,5,6,7 years under LOA 93.

I believe that I now see your "problem" herein....it's just killing you that St Nic's gifts aren't going to get there for you in time for Xmas like you had thought.

After all the chatter we've heard after the "award" was posted about how easilly the east would roll over etc...it must be terribly frustrating for such as yourself to be shown to be so foolish in YOUR "expectations".

We fully "GET" that few, or none of you out there care at all about the notions of length of service, experience, etc. You demostrate a wholesale lack of any respect for these basic tenants upon which human society is actually founded, and instead spew forth naught but twisted crap that you think best colors your own desires to get at the Xmas presents early.

You've even an earlier post that would have us "bow down" to even the vileness of a scab.

It may be past time for some of you to at least think on the concept of growing up.

 

[Phoenix]

.. You are entitled to your opinion as are others. We do live in a democratic society.

The proposition that "seniority" is based on "democracy" is an oxymoron. B) Think about what you just said.

"Demoncratic Seniority"? Let me guess, did the ALPA EC come up with that term or do they just rely on dimwhits to think of it that way so they can fleece the natives? :huh:

 

[767jetz]

The proposition that "seniority" is based on "democracy" is an oxymoron. B) Think about what you just said.

"Demoncratic Seniority"? Let me guess, did the ALPA EC come up with that term or do they just rely on dimwhits to think of it that way so they can fleece the natives? :huh:

More of your one-sided opinions.

Yes, yes... I know... you are right, everyone else is wrong. Even the 57,000 other ALPA pilots.

It's not "Democratic Seniority" as you conveniently label it, since the current reality doesn't fit your narrow and simplistic view about the way the world "should" be.

It is seniority based on democratically accepted and voted upon principles. Those principles are that the meaning of seniority is multifaceted, and can not be decided by broad generalizations like DOH that only benefit one group and completely dismisses the needs, the will, the sacrifices, and the expectations, of the other 57,000 members. Spin it however you want, but you do not occupy the moral high ground, nor do you have the support or agreement of the majority. THAT, my friend, is democracy.

This will play out to it's legal conclusion, and IMO you will not be happy with the outcome. You may or may not replace your current union representation, but that will do little to improve your current or future situation. Either way, no one is disputing your legal rights to play your hand however you choose. Just be aware that no one else will be responsible for the outcome but yourselves.

 

[EastUS]

You may or may not replace your current union representation, but that will do little to improve your current or future situation.

BS...pure and unadulterated Alpo apologist BS

"Just be aware that no one else will be responsible for the outcome but yourselves"

That sounds like a vast improvement over misplacing further trust in the operation that has cheerfully given away our pensions...without allowing us any vote, eviscerated any/all work rules hereabouts, provided for an ever-eroding standard of living...and finally forwarded us the Nic fiasco.

You seem utterly enamoured with Alpa. I'd LOVE to hear the shortest list in history concerning all the wonderfull things that operation's done for us in the last two decades?....

Cat got your toungue?........Still? You're shown as still reading this topic...No great notions to offer up as to what Alpo's actually done?.....What a total surprise.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

What anger?? I'm laughing my ass off...get it???

Arbitration a lottery? In the real world all of us live in understand that going to arbitration is a huge gamble/risk, one your MEC was willing to take. The only winners out of this lottery are the top 500 guys who were not impacted one bit. I do not have any winnings here, or do I? You tell me why I should feel like I won the lottery??? C'mon tell me.

You and the rest of the feasties apparently think arbitration is a joke.

If I sound a little miffed it is only because of the complete mockery you have made of the situation, persistently attacking our professionalism and ability to fly aircraft, your condescending attitude, arrogance, and complete retard understanding of ALPA merger policy and the Award itself. No I'm not mad that I will not see the new list, I'm miffed because I have to be associated with you feasties. It is the principle of the matter now. Terrorists don't have to do anything to me personally before I get angry and support their demise. It about what they represent. (for the mental midgets out there, I'm not calling feasties terrorists in the real world sense - its called an analogy).

Concern? Its "binding." Get it.
You have an irrational anger at the folks that are keeping you from joining a seniority list. The only reason you could have such anger is if they are causing you great financial harm by 1) reducing your pay now or 2) by preventing great economic advantage that would occur automaticaly upon the seniority list implementation.

It is obvious you are beig prevented from cashing in on a windfall that you think is yours. Otherwise why would you have such anger and ill will toward fellow pilots?

You apparently think arbitration is a lottery system. And the ALPA EC seems to think so also.

The EC is a plutocracy, and you are bitching because you can't cash in your lottery ticket?

 

[EastUS]

What anger?? I'm laughing my ass off...get it???

Arbitration a lottery? In the real world all of us live in understand that going to arbitration is a huge gamble/risk, one your MEC was willing to take. The only winners out of this lottery are the top 500 guys who were not impacted one bit. I do not have any winnings here, or do I? You tell me why I should feel like I won the lottery??? C'mon tell me.

You and the rest of the feasties apparently think arbitration is a joke.

If I sound a little miffed it is only because of the complete mockery you have made of the situation, persistently attacking our professionalism and ability to fly aircraft, your condescending attitude, arrogance, and complete retard understanding of ALPA merger policy and the Award itself. No I'm not mad that I will not see the new list, I'm miffed because I have to be associated with you feasties. It is the principle of the matter now. Terrorists don't have to do anything to me personally before I get angry and support their demise. It about what they represent. (for the mental midgets out there, I'm not calling feasties terrorists in the real world sense - its called an analogy).

Let's see:

You're merely "a little miffed"?...You're "not mad that I will not see the new list"...but imply that we're "Terrorists" = "its called an analogy)", the "mental midgets" is merely additional insult, and attempted coloring of the same....That all seems perfectly reasonable to me sir.... I believe the Bard had that covered with: "Methinks he doth protesteth too much".

The good news..for which you should be thankfull..is that given our reluctance to roll over for the St Nic BS...you won't likely "have to be associated with you feasties."..at least not anytime soon..if ever

Have a good one.

 

[SegmentKing]

anyone want some popcorn?

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

Keep telling that to yourself Alice. You deserve nothing more than LOA 93 for the rest of your career.

I'm beyond trying to explain how the process unfolded with the merger committees over the last 2 years, you feasties have proven you lack of any comprehension skills so its a complete waste of time.

I understand attrition very well, do you? Do you understand that roughly half of your attrition is in the FO and furloughed ranks?? I think when all of you feasties hear that number you close your eyes, plug your ears, and mumble la la la la la la, pretending you don't hear it. All you hear is feasties have 200 + retirements/year and falsely assume all of them are vacated captain spots. Get a clue shallow Hal.

At least we wont have to fly with arrogant pricks like you. We wont suffer as much as you think pal.
Sorry to tell you this but your proposal would have stapled 21 year East pilots. Tell me again how you tried to work with us. You really dont understand attrition, do you fool?
See you boys at the Lagoon!
Maybe, but not for 5 to 7 years.
Your anger really upsets me. I guess if you can justify a scab you can justify about anything.

 

[SegmentKing]

can we play a game?

Whose plane is faster?

Drag races down a runway?

who can make the marshaller #### their pants first?

How many birdstrike can you take before you lose an engine?

Pin a tail on the scab?

We could play slip'n'slide but we have that down pat at LGA, now to do it without killin anyone. Actually, has HP ever landed in LGA?

 

[EastUS]

anyone want some popcorn?

Medium with too much butter please, and a large soda