August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[luvthe9]

So let me see if I comprehend your logic: Syzmanski says that Hummel is critical which is why the ask for a continuance which Silver said she won't grant. So now that Hummel is in the Hospital Syzmanski sits at the table ALONE. So why have him in office anyway if he can't even run the union except with the empty suit left at the table. Oh, that would be Bradford. And you guys wonder why the pilots are where they are and always will be for quite some time.

He makes 210,000, he could care less about us and is hanging on for the better disability plan if we merge with AMR. It's just wrong.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Luv and end

So you have made a case why Hummel should not continue. Set aside for the moment that he may be able to resume full duties in a couple of weeks. What is your strategy for the immediate future given the twin tsunamis of APA and Addington about to confront us (one for sure, the other perhaps)? Who replaces Hummel? Is this a good time for an officer election? Hummel is being accused of breaking rules, would you like me to catalogue the rules which were bent or broken by his predecessor? If the BPR majority picks the officer team, rather than the rank and file, is that good for the union? Does the one party system of China or the former USSR ring a bell?

I'm just askin here.

'84

 

[Piedmont1984]

So let me see if I comprehend your logic: Syzmanski says that Hummel is critical which is why the ask for a continuance which Silver said she won't grant. So now that Hummel is in the Hospital Syzmanski sits at the table ALONE. So why have him in office anyway if he can't even run the union except with the empty suit left at the table. Oh, that would be Bradford. And you guys wonder why the pilots are where they are and always will be for quite some time.

We are where we are because of a really stupid 'safety first campaign' which brought the injunction which renders us toothless and declawed. Now who was the architect of that brilliant scheme?

 

[Phoenix]

We are where we are because of a really stupid 'safety first campaign' which brought the injunction which renders us toothless and declawed. Now who was the architect of that brilliant scheme?

It never ceases to amaze me (though I should expect nothing else I suppose after so long a pattern)... Why do pilots always lay blame for everything on other pilots (often for a single act) while management causes hundreds of grievances and are a apparently guiltless?

That is a serious question though I don't expect anyone to provide an adequate answer.

 

[Piedmont1984]

I think we should get rid of all of them, Hummel should be first.

What you mean we kimosabe? The BPR? No, you don't get to vote for the officers, the rank and file does. Separation of powers, otherwise it's 'back to the USSR'.

I've sat through two BPR meetings this year. Too much time expended fighting each other, quibbling over trivia (signing bonus allocation) and too little on the big items.

Compared to ALPA it's the same ####, different day. Hope the APA puts us out of our misery soon.

 

[Piedmont1984]

It never ceases to amaze me (though I should expect nothing else I suppose after so long a pattern)... Why do pilots always lay blame for everything on other pilots (often for a single act) while management causes hundreds of grievances and are a apparently guiltless?

That is a serious question though I don't expect anyone to provide an adequate answer.

Plenty to blame management for, but even if we were united, east and west, that particular safety campaign and the way it was implemented would still have resulted in an injunction. We like to blame Parker for emails which may have jeopardized the merger. How about all the safety campaign emails, updates, etc. sent by some of the BPR which brought on the spanking from the court? Yellow lanyards being the icing on the cake.

 

[Piedmont1984]

It never ceases to amaze me (though I should expect nothing else I suppose after so long a pattern)... Why do pilots always lay blame for everything on other pilots (often for a single act) while management causes hundreds of grievances and are a apparently guiltless?

That is a serious question though I don't expect anyone to provide an adequate answer.

I guess the best answer to your question (and I say this with disgust) is this. Management is and has always been smarter than the unions representing pilots, at least on this property.

 

[traderjake]

Management is and has always been smarter than the unions representing pilots, at least on this property.

Management is smarter than the pilots who elect the Reps of our unions.

If they can keep us fighting each other we can't fight management effectively.

 

[traderjake]

I think we should get rid of all of them, Hummel should be first.

Hummel was elected, McKee was not.

Even if you manage to put McKee in the people who voted for Hummel aren't going to follow McKee over the cliff.

 

[traderjake]

Oh yeah, I meant to also say that I am sorry that it grieves you so much that I have a position that you can't have, since you haven't earned it.....take it easy, it will be yours in due time, son. breeze

I'm sure everyone is dying to be the lowest paid WB F/O over the North Atlantic in the middle of the night.

 

[Piedmont1984]

I'm sure everyone is dying to be the lowest paid WB F/O over the North Atlantic in the middle of the night.

Better yet, the lowest paid Capts and F/Os over the Amazon, at night, both ways. At least we have rafts for the NA.

Regarding your comment on management being smarter than pilots. The average line pilot can't keep up with all the issues all the time. War and Peace was a cake walk compared to the legal library. That's what the union is for. And those that are elected to union positions want to be in those positions first, have no excuse for not being as smart as management second, and third, should place the best interests of the rank and file above ego and personal animosities.

 

[Reed Richards]

Maybe it’s the chemicals in the Braveheart blue face paint that are causing even some of the more reasonable posters here to go off the deep end as the trial looms (that’s a spooky Halloween “loom”..Oooooh!) This is pretty much the same thing I told you all when evaluating the possible outcome in the Ninth 4 years ago. Don’t look at our issues as unique or defining; we are ALL part of a small, trivial, and generally unliked pilot group. We work for an airline management so despised by the Pols and Wall Street that nary a single merger can be walked down the aisle, much less consummated on an 8 year wedding night. The legal world could care less about “us,” they want this to go away. Wall Street just wants “us” to be paid as little as possible, they don’t care who pilots the big birds.

We don’t need SCOTUS to “intervene” with the law of the land definition of DFR. It is simply the law now, absent intervention by SCOTUS itself, or legislation passed by Congress to the contrary. What we do need is Harper to actually prove that such a supposed horror of mistreatment MEETS the standards set as law. Nothing more. Does anyone think the Ninth is going to try and change the standard of DFR to meet the needs of the West Class? Even if they were all blood related to PHX pilots, you have to look at what changing the standard does to the entire labor landscape. Do the courts really want thousands of DFRs flooding them based on intention, speculation, fear, supposition, etc.? No, they don’t. DFRs are decided based on actual action, defined even recently by the Ninth itself as an actual bargaining product.

And I continue to be slack jawed at adults counting the number of Judges supposedly in their favor and adding up a win with just strikes and outs called on a ballpark scoreboard. The only thing that matters is the result of the game, rather legal proceeding. The “umps” are important, but the win is a win is win (Lance Armstrong accepted.) As to the idea proffered by both the Company and the West Class that there has already been a demonstrated ruling of DFR in a courtroom (again.. spooky Ooooooh!)…. that is just plain stupid. Absent the final bargaining product how can any court claim to have ruled “on the facts” if they don’t even know them? Had USAPA magically gotten a contract ratified without the NIC, but with some aberration that made everyone a little more unhappy, would we have even been in court? Who knows. Not Judge Wake, he suffered the embarrassment of wasting time and moneys by holding a trial he already knew was unripe, following the “unripe demise” of the Empire group in NC. Silver suffers almost the same fate. She at least had the gumption to be front and center with her ripeness argument, only to have the DOJ splash egg on her face. These AZ judges just cannot get a break. Watching Silver proceed against all odds might be more flinching than Judge Wake’s quick action. Silver’s is more in painful slow motion.

Back to the DFR. Did USAPA commit that heinous act by not including the NIC in the MOU? That is the ONLY question as to DFR that is before Judge Silver. Remember that as you all see the facts of the MOU birth presented, specifically the seniority section. My guess is the proceedings (paternity test?) will prove XXXXXXXX was at least present in the bedroom, if not the actual father. Don’t call the Enquirer yet, try and enjoy the show and not let my predictions ruin your entertainment! RR

 

[traderjake]

And those that are elected to union positions want to be in those positions first, have no excuse for not being as smart as management second, and third, should place the best interests of the rank and file above ego and personal animosities.

Plus 10 on your third point.

On your second we need to elect Reps who are as smart as management or at least realize they're not and follow the council of someone who is.

 

[Phoenix]

I guess the best answer to your question (and I say this with disgust) is this. Management is and has always been smarter than the unions representing pilots, at least on this property.

Certainly management hires folks to outsmart the unions, but I don't see why their superior intellect means we have to blame, attack, and bloody each other. Are we really that stupid? I don't think it has anything to do with intelligence. Greed, fear, and scruples (lack their of) can out whit the smartest who have none of the above.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Certainly management hires folks to outsmart the unions, but I don't see why their superior intellect means we have to blame, attack, and bloody each other. Are we really that stupid? I don't think it has anything to do with intelligence. Greed, fear, and scruples (lack their of) can out whit the smartest who have none of the above.

Managment intelligence is not a factor either way. So long as USAPA is emotionally committed to an untenable position rather than objectively accepting the reality of the situation, all Management has to do is sit back and enjoy $100+ Million savings each year in pilot wages. When they go even further by blatantly violating the status quo and getting a federal injunction for it, well it's like Christmas everyday courtesy of USAPA. Perhaps a federal court can force USAPA to accept reality, but the west and Management certainly can't.