August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Pi brat]

And yet USAPA is 0/1 on DFRs when any federal court had evaluated the west claims based on the merits.

I have to say that most of you west guys certainly are "the glass is half full!"

 

[CallawayGolf]

I have to say that most of you west guys certainly are "the glass is half full!"

It's still a fact.

Wake, merits = DFR
Bybee, merits = DFR
Tashima, ripeness not attained; merits not reviewed
Graber, ripeness not attained; merits not reviewed
Silver (DJ), USAPA is on dangerous ground but no DFR providing a LUP can be advanced

 

[Pi brat]

It's still a fact.

Wake, merits = DFR
Bybee, merits = DFR
Tashima, ripeness not attained; merits not reviewed
Graber, ripeness not attained; merits not reviewed
Silver (DJ), USAPA is on dangerous ground but no DFR providing a LUP can be advanced

The merits weren't heard. NOBODY has won anything in this mess.

 

[CallawayGolf]

The merits weren't heard. NOBODY has won anything in this mess.

Agreed 100%. I didn't say those were wins, just that Phoenix was incorrect about how the federal courts have viewed the merits of a DFR thus far.

 

[snapthis]

The merits weren't heard. NOBODY has won anything in this mess.

There are a few remedies with a judgement against the defendants to clean up the mess:

CASE NO. CV-13-00471-PHX-ROS​

FIRST AMENDED COMPLAINT​

FOR DECLARATORY​

JUDGMENT ON DUTY OF FAIR​

REPRESENTATION AND ORDER​

ENJOINING PILOT​

INTEGRATION THAT DOES NOT​

USE THE NICOLAU AWARD​

SENIORITY LIST

US AIRLINE PILOTS ASS’N, an​

unincorporated association; and​

US AIRWAYS, INC., a Delaware​

corporation,​

Defendants

135. Judgment that US Airways, with the consent of USAPA, is in​

breach of the implied covenant of the Transition Agreement;​

136. An injunction requiring Defendants to conduct seniority​

integration according to the MOU procedures but using the seniority​

order in the Nicolau Award list to order the US Airways pilots;​

137. Judgment that the West Pilots are entitled to an order declaring​

that they have party status and the right (but not the obligation) to​

participate fully (with counsel of their own choice) in the MOU Seniority​

Integration process; and​

138. Judgment awarding Plaintiffs the reasonable litigation expenses, including attorneys fees, incurred since 2008 protecting the fair representation rights of the US Airways Pilots.​

 

[Pi brat]

There are a few remedies with a judgement against the defendants to clean up the mess:

CASE NO. CV-13-00471-PHX-ROS​

FIRST AMENDED COMPLAINT​

FOR DECLARATORY​

JUDGMENT ON DUTY OF FAIR​

REPRESENTATION AND ORDER​

ENJOINING PILOT​

INTEGRATION THAT DOES NOT​

USE THE NICOLAU AWARD​

SENIORITY LIST

US AIRLINE PILOTS ASS’N, an​

unincorporated association; and​

US AIRWAYS, INC., a Delaware​

corporation,​

Defendants

135. Judgment that US Airways, with the consent of USAPA, is in​

breach of the implied covenant of the Transition Agreement;​

136. An injunction requiring Defendants to conduct seniority​

integration according to the MOU procedures but using the seniority​

order in the Nicolau Award list to order the US Airways pilots;​

137. Judgment that the West Pilots are entitled to an order declaring​

that they have party status and the right (but not the obligation) to​

participate fully (with counsel of their own choice) in the MOU Seniority​

Integration process; and​

138. Judgment awarding Plaintiffs the reasonable litigation expenses, including attorneys fees, incurred since 2008 protecting the fair representation rights of the US Airways Pilots.​

Sounds like Marty wants his money.

 

[Phoenix]

It's still a fact.

Wake, merits = DFR
Bybee, merits = DFR
Tashima, ripeness not attained; merits not reviewed
Graber, ripeness not attained; merits not reviewed
Silver (DJ), USAPA is on dangerous ground but no DFR providing a LUP can be advanced

Neither Wake or Bybee cited the SCOTUS standard of DFR. Both made the same implicit assumption that Tashima and Graber called Bybee on. A judge can apply the SCOTUS standard to a final product or they can make an implicit assumption that USAPA must forever and always use only the Nic. I would have expected you to have the intellectual honesty to distinguish the distinct difference between the two approaches. No, actually I wouldn't.

 

[Phoenix]

Agreed 100%. I didn't say those were wins, just that Phoenix was incorrect about how the federal courts have viewed the merits of a DFR thus far.

A dissenting judge or two is not "federal courts". They are consolation prizes at best. Sort of like a tube of tooth paste when you lose on the price is right.

How come no one is willing to articulate the injury in fact? It seems not a one of you can muster any of that integrity you all have been crowing about. It's one thing to abandon one's own integrity, but to let a judge rush headlong into a trial where she herself said there is no harm, but instead is just having a trial anyway to explore for some... Hoping to profit on someone else's integrity.. Well let's just say the West's true colors are shining through... believing the end justifies the means

 

[CallawayGolf]

A dissenting judge or two is not "federal courts". They are consolation prizes at best. Sort of like a tube of tooth paste when you lose on the price is right.

How come no one is willing to articulate the injury in fact? It seems not a one of you can muster any of that integrity you all have been crowing about. It's one thing to abandon one's own integrity, but to let a judge rush headlong into a trial where she herself said there is no harm, but instead is just having a trial anyway to explore for some... Hoping to profit on someone else's integrity.. Well let's just say the West's true colors are shining through... believing the end justifies the means

It seems clear to me that there is no harm in the sense that there is no JCBA. That's why I've maintained that the DFR-II based in the MOU is not likely to succeed or actually resolve the issue. However, I believe Bybee clearly articulated why the original DFR was ripe for judicial relief as USAPA has repeatedly indicated that they will violate their DFR as it relates to the NIC if only the Company would act in a complicit manner and allow them to do so. That has certainly proven to be true in the years since Bybee wrote his dissenting opinion and I think that will weigh heavily in the DJ appeal. If Tashima or Graber end up seeing this issue differently now and under the very different ripeness rules of a Declaratory Judgment, USAPA will be boxed in and forced by the court to abide by the NIC. If they don't and somehow affirm that both the Company and USAPA are legally free to modify an arbitrated award with no DFR recourse for the west, then the west will have nowhere to turn.

Whatever Silver is doing seems to have little meaning IMO to the overall resolution of the dispute unless the POR becomes effective and the west DFR claim becomes unquestionably ripe.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

It seems clear to me that there is no harm in the sense that there is no JCBA. That's why I've maintained that the DFR-II based in the MOU is not likely to succeed or actually resolve the issue. However, I believe Bybee clearly articulated why the original DFR was ripe for judicial relief as USAPA has repeatedly indicated that they will violate their DFR as it relates to the NIC if only the Company would act in a complicit manner and allow them to do so. That has certainly proven to be true in the years since Bybee wrote his dissenting opinion and I think that will weigh heavily in the DJ appeal. If Tashima or Graber end up seeing this issue differently now and under the very different ripeness rules of a Declaratory Judgment, USAPA will be boxed in and forced by the court to abide by the NIC. If they don't and somehow affirm that both the Company and USAPA are legally free to modify an arbitrated award with no DFR recourse for the west, then the west will have nowhere to turn.

Whatever Silver is doing seems to have little meaning IMO to the overall resolution of the dispute unless the POR becomes effective and the west DFR claim becomes unquestionably ripe.

As I pointed to SNAP , SWISSE CHEESE, I disagree with your point of no DFR recourse, anybody anytime, anywhere can file a DFR, as long as the corp is free to bargain without recourse is the only factor, the green light on the DJ only leaves the unions with liability, Giving the "WEST CLASS" sets up a number of legal options to USAPA, involving a number of lawsuits after all there is no JCBA, cherry picking the terms of T/A does not satisfy the legal definition of a "SENIORITY INTEGRATION", NO JOINT CBA, DUI DOUG would use this to stretch the profits at "ALL" our expenses, this will be 6 years in the making if allowed to proceed, my opinion, the DOJ affirmed gets it right and this madness continues between EAST and WEST!

 

[snapthis]

As I pointed to SNAP , SWISSE CHEESE, I disagree with your point of no DFR recourse, anybody anytime, anywhere can file a DFR, as long as the corp is free to bargain without recourse is the only factor, the green light on the DJ only leaves the unions with liability, Giving the "WEST CLASS" sets up a number of legal options to USAPA, involving a number of lawsuits after all there is no JCBA, cherry picking the terms of T/A does not satisfy the legal definition of a "SENIORITY INTEGRATION", NO JOINT CBA, DUI DOUG would use this to stretch the profits at "ALL" our expenses, this will be 6 years in the making if allowed to proceed, my opinion, the DOJ affirmed gets it right and this madness continues between EAST and WEST!

Well, here's my prediction.

The DOJ will be shown the door, the merger continues and the APA will
take over where USAPA failed.

We'll get along just fine in American's house.

Harmony:

 

[Phoenix]

It seems clear to me that there is no harm in the sense that there is no JCBA. That's why I've maintained that the DFR-II based in the MOU is not likely to succeed or actually resolve the issue. However, I believe Bybee clearly articulated why the original DFR was ripe for judicial relief as USAPA has repeatedly indicated that they will violate their DFR as it relates to the NIC if only the Company would act in a complicit manner and allow them to do so. That has certainly proven to be true in the years since Bybee wrote his dissenting opinion and I think that will weigh heavily in the DJ appeal. If Tashima or Graber end up seeing this issue differently now and under the very different ripeness rules of a Declaratory Judgment, USAPA will be boxed in and forced by the court to abide by the NIC. If they don't and somehow affirm that both the Company and USAPA are legally free to modify an arbitrated award with no DFR recourse for the west, then the west will have nowhere to turn.

Whatever Silver is doing seems to have little meaning IMO to the overall resolution of the dispute unless the POR becomes effective and the west DFR claim becomes unquestionably ripe.

Bybee didn't start with the SCOTUS standard of DFR. Implicit assumptions are futile. One must rest upon an authoritative standard when making a judgement else their judgment is meaningless. You can't even say someone is tall or short if you don't begin with a standard to compare against.

Why has Marty never availed himself of the standard of DFR published by SCOTUS? Why do you all let him attempt to prove a breach of DFR without ever predicating his proof upon a demonstrated breach of THE standard?

It is either incompetent or dishonest...

Suing with no standard and no articulated injury in fact. Integrity? Meh.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Bybee didn't start with the SCOTUS standard of DFR. Implicit assumptions are futile. One must rest upon an authoritative standard when making a judgement else their judgment is meaningless. You can't even say someone is tall or short if you don't begin with a standard to compare against.

Why has Marty never availed himself of the standard of DFR published by SCOTUS? Why do you all let him attempt to prove a breach of DFR without ever predicating his proof upon a demonstrated breach of THE standard?

It is either incompetent or dishonest...

Suing with no standard and no articulated injury in fact. Integrity? Meh.

Are you suggesting now that if Bybee and either Tashima or Graber rule favorably to the west position in the upcoming DJ matter that the SCOTUS is going to come and save the day for east pilots? That's really, really funny.

 

[Metroyet]

.....

 

[mrbreeze]

I go to the pool when you are shoveling the driveway.

Ya know, there are more things in life than just sitting on your fat ass by the pool. In the morning I am taking my two sons elk hunting for a week. We have an outfitter's tent, 12x16 ft, with a wood stove.....all the comforts of home. I am sure you can't compute just how deeply enriching this is in our family.....after all, the only game you have to chase is probably shooting at rats with a BB gun. I can see why you would succumb to just sitting on your ass. I will try and attach a pic from our last outing.....a 6x6 bull elk, weighed about 800 pounds. Of course, you probably have rats that size in PHX...... breeze