August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Reed Richards]

And was responsible for choosing Nicolau a second time in a row?


What do you call a guy who doesn't learn from his mistakes?

The MC knew DOH/LOS was not our best strategy, two of the three said so to me in emails.

Uh, one of your adored know it all MC guys sat on the PI Merger Committee, and he did not blink when told by an arbitrator he would not get slotting; and the opposing side was told they would not get DOH. How did that turn out? You keep adding up your supposed "wins" by using ALPA sanctioned mergers. ELECTED members of the MEC (note: not the MC guys) chose not to throw our furloughed guys under the bus, and when the idiot Nic did anyway we chose to go our own way, and do better. Our efforts just benefited furlourghees at the new UAL, with yet another change to ALPA merger policy. Let me know when they finally perfect it. Just like Boeing Boy did with the Empire guys, you have no problem spouting off that it was fine to move forward with gains at the expense of others (in BB's case Empire, in your perverted logic our own furloughs.) Like I said, you never could or would get elected to actually make a decision. All about you, all the time. Every time you crow here your own selfishness and hatred of our furloughed comes out even more. RR

 

[mrbreeze]

You've got nothing, Traitor. We have discussed this before! Of those 5 mergers, splain to us pacifically just how many have settled things and moved on with their integrations. breeze

I've got five pilot seniority arbitrations in a row that prove you're the one logic impaired.

Tell us Traitor, of the 5 that you claim is the new world order....how many have moved on with their SLI, with no objections, and are under one contract, living happily ever after?

 

[Res Judicata]

Control of the West? Do you mean PHX based USAPA members? That is their only identifier.

I believe it's a Thrice certified class. SYICAH

 

[traderjake]

You keep adding up your supposed "wins" by using ALPA sanctioned mergers.

Five seniority arbitrations in a row say LOS is not seniority.

If you would admit you screwed up you might have some credibility.

 

[Benz M-100]

Tell us Traitor, of the 5 that you claim is the new world order....how many have moved on with their SLI, with no objections, and are under one contract, living happily ever after?

Five seniority arbitrations in a row say LOS is not seniority.

Your honor, the witness is unresponsive to the question....

 

[end_of_alpa]

Five seniority arbitrations in a row say LOS is not seniority.

If you would admit you screwed up you might have some credibility.

Then you'll take from the company what they want to give to you or you can quit.

If you can admit you hate unions then we're good. The latest ALPA merger WILL come back to haunt them. Status and category, career expectations are subjective and pilots are the only group of workers who think they're better than everyone else.

The Piedmont Principle at its finest.

 

[Reed Richards]

Five seniority arbitrations in a row say LOS is not seniority.

If you would admit you screwed up you might have some credibility.

"screwed up" and did not let our furloughed pilots get screwed? If that is your definition, then a majority of East pilots are guilty as charged. They were willing to change bargaining agents to right the ALPA wrongs, wrongs even ALPA continues to address.
It is clear, you favored screwing our own guys in front of Nic, and you favor exactly the same now..so you can claim a "win." Boing Boy is beaming now as his legacy continues. Its all about you. RR

 

[EastUS1]

I believe it's a Thrice certified class. SYICAH

It comes as no surprise that your "class" is indeed certifiable. Don't forget to feed the "dire wolves" today.

 

[EastUS1]

And was responsible for choosing Nicolau a second time in a row?

What do you call a guy who doesn't learn from his mistakes?

Nicolau?

 

[Piedmont1984]

The company filing in which they request a summary judgement (it was filed on the 11th) lays out the rationale for a 3 way and makes good sense to me. I don't dispute all the reasons previously articulated to support and pursue a DOH based regime in order to protect LOS as well as the furloughed pilots. But that is the east position in a two sided argument. At the end of the day, a neutral agency needs to hear both arguments and then decide (an honest ref if you will). Separate ops and separate lists is the status quo reality and it implies separate interests. Can't have it both ways. USAPA, although legally certified, is not a neutral, unbiased agency in this regard. If this merger proceeds, I expect to see a 3 way going into M/B and just as well. The west will finally get their day in court, their grievances heard, while the specter of DFR evaporates in the process. There will be two other parties present arguing for something other than the Nic. I'm willing to take my chance.

Explain where my logic fails.

 

[EastUS1]

The company filing in which they request a summary judgement (it was filed on the 11th) lays out the rationale for a 3 way and makes good sense to me. I don't dispute all the reasons previously articulated to support and pursue a DOH based regime in order to protect LOS as well as the furloughed pilots. But that is the east position in a two sided argument. At the end of the day, a neutral agency needs to hear both arguments and then decide (an honest ref if you will). Separate ops and separate lists is the status quo reality and it implies separate interests. Can't have it both ways. USAPA, although legally certified, is not a neutral, unbiased agency in this regard. If this merger proceeds, I expect to see a 3 way going into M/B and just as well. The west will finally get their day in court, their grievances heard, while the specter of DFR evaporates in the process. There will be two other parties present arguing for something other than the Nic. I'm willing to take my chance.

Explain where my logic fails.

For myself personally; I'd be fine with the logic of a three way. Where I see things getting murky lies in legal determination of the definable limits of a given union's authority, as opposed to that of a disenchanted group within it. Arguments along the lines of what's been presented by the west could well be made for any single domicile or dissafected subset of members towards gaining their own, distinct bargaining abilities as well. It's an interesting little cauldron to see bubbling, and what eventually occurs; I wouldn't even speculate on at present myself.

 

[Metroyet]

For myself personally; I'd be fine with the logic of a three way. Where I see things getting murky lies in legal determination of the definable limits of a given union's authority, as opposed to that of a disenchanted group within it. Arguments along the lines of what's been presented by the west could well be made for any single domicile or dissafected subset of members towards gaining their own, distinct bargaining abilities as well. It's an interesting little cauldron to see bubbling, and what eventually occurs; I wouldn't even speculate on at present myself.

All wrong. All your imagined "sub-sects" are fully integrated EAST pilots. No JCBA yet according to your fake union right? There's a world of difference between the former AMW pilots and the East groups. The fact that the fake union desperately wants to pick and choose when certain provisions apply to them or not is extremely telling.

The Company spells out exactly WHY USTUPID is incapable of fairly representing their "West Union Brothers" and is begging the court to intervene. Which is BS as the TA, the governing document is crystal clear.

 

[Piedmont1984]

For myself personally; I'd be fine with the logic of a three way. Where I see things getting murky lies in legal determination of the definable limits of a given union's authority, as opposed to that of a disenchanted group within it. Arguments along the lines of what's been presented by the west could well be made for any single domicile or dissafected subset of members towards gaining their own, distinct bargaining abilities as well. It's an interesting little cauldron to see bubbling, and what eventually occurs; I wouldn't even speculate on at present myself.

True, but once again, the west class exists in reality; separate ops, pay, contract, seniority lists and last but not least, a grievance which goes back to 2008 which was triggered by the ejection of ALPA. To use an analogy, for the DCA pilots to suddenly claim separate bargaining status, or the wide body pilots, would be arbitrary and largely without merit. The difference between the west class and any other potential sub class is a demonstrable and documented history - and considerable traction in terms of time and cost to you and I.

 

[Piedmont1984]

The beauty of a 3 way is that it's essentially a do-over. Unlike the DFR trial where Wake constrained USAPA and narrowly defined the issue, in a 3 way we can revisit all of the old arguments, fairness, equity, gold standard, other DOH mergers on our property, etc. Nicolau won't be on the panel, so his particular bias (merger philosophy) will not be a factor. The west class will argue for the Nic, but two other parties will argue for something else.

AOL should be careful what they wish for.

 

[EastUS1]

True, but once again, the west class exists in reality; separate ops, pay, contract, seniority lists and last but not least, a grievance which goes back to 2008 which was triggered by the ejection of ALPA. To use an analogy, for the DCA pilots to suddenly claim separate bargaining status, or the wide body pilots, would be arbitrary and largely without merit. The difference between the west class and any other potential sub class is a demonstrable and documented history - and considerable traction in terms of time and cost to you and I.

Largely agreed, but again; the issues I see as murky lie within determining the boundaries of any given union's authority, and certainly usapa's in this instance. A three-way integration (should the merger proceed) wouldn't surprise or upset me, and seems a reasonable way to settle this mess. It will be interesting to see how the legal process runs it's course.