Attrition at US and AWA

[Charlie_Tuna]

Uh...lemme guess...must be from Philly

LOLOLOLOL

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

So, you are saying you can't show me the east "windfall?" That's ok, at least everyone now knows what this "battle" is really all about - EGO

To entertain fences and such to "work out" a solution to YOUR problem in exchange for something from the east (quid pro quo) would imply we agree with your argument that there is a "windfall." Even if we did, would that be unethical? There is such a thing called personal and professional integrity. Something that seemingly has been thrown aside in the east in favor of professional greed. You guys want it all because you have suffered and earned the right to be where you are, yada, yada, yada.

If you believe in America and in the democratic process then you will live with the results. You may not like them, but you will accept them and move on. The two groups moved through the entire democratic process and a decision was made. If the East model would have prevailed (DOH/LOS) I certianly would have been extremely upset, but I would have accepted it (after venting for weeks on this board of course). This is our system and way of life people. Nobody is above the law.

1)I'm not in the 16 year bracket.

2)MY..."misplaced....EGO"?..You're hardly the only one posting around here with combat time. Being the antiques that many of us are...we've had more available wars There's a considerable number of us who've given at the office...and have far more airline time as well. You're equipped, via experience, to have a full understanding of "Date of Commission"/"Date of Rank"/"Time in Grade"..Have those sorts of concepts suddenly become so mysterious to you? If you were assigned exchange officer duties with a different branch....should you again put on a Butter Bar?

3)I didn't "sign on" for USAir...it was a sad business of being bought. I sure-as-HELL didn't "sign on" for AWA...yet here we all are..Get it now? That's a real "joy" that you may very likely experience yourself within the next few years. If you've not yet figured out that AWA, as it is currently being "managed", is also an "Enron" in process...you must be pretty new to the commercial sector of the sky. Trust me...I'd like to be wrong, but I have seen thieving idiots destroy airlines first hand, and several times now. If you still envision this as a "career"...you ARE "new"

4)Given all the mutual admiration and "Up Yours" stuff hereabouts...any ideas on how to fix this mess so we can actually get this abortion formed into a workable airline?

5)Without any intended smartazzed BS on my part:I truly hope that you've kept a Guard or Reserve slot...This mess ain't lookin' none too good, and at least there's some retirement bennies to be had, not to mention "actual flying".

Addendum: Would there be any way to work out Fences with AWA guys in return for something from the East by way of some type of accomodatons? I don't have but a few years left to play airliner...but I'd like to someday enjoy more than the crew and the view again..like a decent work enviornment...which we're not anywhere close to gaining as yet.

 

[EastUS]

So, you are saying you can't show me the east "windfall?"

To entertain fences and such to "work out" a solution to YOUR problem in exchange for something from the east (quid pro quo) would imply we agree with your argument that there is a "windfall." Even if we did, would that be unethical? There is such a thing called personal and professional integrity. Something that seemingly has been thrown aside in the east in favor of professional greed. You guys want it all because you have suffered and earned the right to be where you are, yada, yada, yada.

If you believe in America and in the democratic process then you will live with the results. You may not like them, but you will accept them and move on. The two groups moved through the entire democratic process and a decision was made. If the East model would have prevailed (DOH/LOS) I certianly would have been extremely upset, but I would have accepted it (after venting for weeks on this board of course). This is our system and way of life people. Nobody is above the law.

Wow!!...That was GREAT!! ...I'm immediately reminded of the scene in Animal House when the Deltas march out of Wormer's disciplinary session, after concluding that by attacking the fraternity system..that he's attacking the values of America I especially loved the: "If you believe in America and in the democratic process"....pretty tough, and fully patriotic talk. I assume that I'm now a traitor to my/our Nation since I'm not willing to accept this BS?

"There is such a thing called personal and professional integrity." No Kidding?...I think that I've heard of that. Perhaps you should read up some more on the subject "....would imply we agree with your argument that there is a "windfall." Even if we did, would that be unethical?"

 

[runner12k]

Sounds like fuzzy math from the West

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

:jerry:

So you're saying you can't show me and the rest where the windfall is? Your Merger committee attempted to show the arbitrator and two neutrals and none of them bought off on it, and neither am I.

Wow!!...That was GREAT!! ...I'm immediately reminded of the scene in Animal House when the Deltas march out of Wormer's disciplinary session, after concluding that by attacking the fraternity system..that he's attacking the values of America I especially loved the: "If you believe in America and in the democratic process"....pretty tough, and fully patriotic talk. I assume that I'm now a traitor to my/our Nation since I'm not willing to accept this BS?

"There is such a thing called personal and professional integrity." No Kidding?...I think that I've heard of that. Perhaps you should read up some more on the subject "....would imply we agree with your argument that there is a "windfall." Even if we did, would that be unethical?"

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

It may "sound" fuzzy to you, but when you actually do the math the numbers are quite factual.

Here is another fact: The furloughed guys will gain from west attrition. They will be recalled faster through combined attrition totaling 1420 pilots over 5 years versus 1117 separately

Sounds like fuzzy math from the West

 

[EastUS]

It may "sound" fuzzy to you, but when you actually do the math the numbers are quite factual.

Here is another fact: The furloughed guys will gain from west attrition. They will be recalled faster through combined attrition totaling 1420 pilots over 5 years versus 1117 separately

You lost my interest after: "Even if we did, would that be unethical?"

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

It was just a question, East. Have you ever had an Ethics class? The discussions cover a broad range of social/business issues we must come to terms with. For example, is it ethical to accept money for organs?

Our issue seems to be one of those where potentially ethics come into play. If there is truly something that averse in the award, should the west correct the wrong and not ask for something in return? Or, is this essentially just an equity issue appropriately addressed quid pro quo?

I am not trying to flame anyone here, just trying to engage in constructive dialogue.

You lost my interest after: "Even if we did, would that be unethical?"

 

[EastUS]

It was just a question, East. Have you ever had an Ethics class? The discussions cover a broad range of social/business issues we must come to terms with. For example, is it ethical to accept money for organs?

Our issue seems to be one of those where potentially ethics come into play. If there is truly something that averse in the award, should the west correct the wrong and not ask for something in return? Or, is this essentially just an equity issue appropriately addressed quid pro quo?

I am not trying to flame anyone here, just trying to engage in constructive dialogue.

Understood now. Much context is sacrificed during quick draws on the keyboard. My fingertips have too much a tendency to attack the keyboard from reasons of full frustration with the current mess...most especially after having high hopes for a bit of better-living-for-all in what was then the hopefully near future. This leaves me tossing out pointless "baitings" many times myself, without even noticing them to be such untill re-read later on.

The most positive development I thus far see is that, after, and in between much butting of heads..some dialog is taking place...albeit in bits and pieces.

Ethics class?=Affirm. One degree is in Business Admin. Likewise; "sensitivity training" during the clintonian era.
You may well recall something similar..when we all wondered whether that meant to embrace everyone's, even the enemy's diversity..before or after obliterating them..and without regard to creed/sexual orientation or ethnic origin.

I fully agree that compromise is needed on both sides for any hope of a resolution.

 

[UseYourHead]

Hi all & 'Callsign_Cactus',
I have not posted in quite-a-while; in fact, in any meaningful way since the days of US Airways BK2.

This post is a factual post with regard to my position and those around me before and after the seniority award and it is not meant to convince anyone either way. It does paint a picture of how the award affects folks.

I was hired in January 1986, was a bottom narrowbody Captain/or very senior FO (able to fly A330) when the
merger snapshot was taken. Awd seniority number is 2800 (within 25 numbers) and preaward number 1750 (within 25 numbers)

AWA pilots hired in January 1986 were senior narrowbody captains with no way to fly widebody or international and AWD sen 850 and pre awd 125.

With this picture the AWA pilot can fly TransOceanic now as a 767 or bottom A330 captain, with attrition in the next five years these guys will be very senior A330 Captains as will many of the AWA pilots that are junior to them and placed between myself and these example pilots.

Here is one more fact to be considered. With attrition premerger I would have moved up in a very meaningful way and the last several years enjoyed widebody Transatlantic flying and retiring at age 60 my seniority would be 200.

After the award in 2010 (age 54 for me) my number 2100, in 2011 sen 1900, in 2012 sen 1680, in 2013 sen 1470, in 2014 sen 1260, in 2015 sen 1070, and at age 60 in 2016 sen 880.

So for me, I was going to be one of the very senior people here fly A330 Captain with some seniority, now I will never reach that, period. I just reach what the AWA guys in the example above have today.

Additionally, my AWA counterparts around sen 2800 today are about 40 years old (I am early 50s) and so the picture just painted makes them very senior A330/350 Captains for probably 7 years or so as they continue to move up about 150-200 numbers per year so within 3-4 years they are 1-200 in seniority.

People have have their expectations effected in a negative way (like me never reaching senior widebody captain) and also in a positive way like my 2800 AWA counterparts who never would have flown A330s, let alone be number 1-200 at the fifth largest airline finishing their career flying very senior transoceanic (instead of me doing it).

These are facts as it stands today of how I and the folks around me will have their careers play out.

Assuming age 60 remains, over the next 5 years (01/07 - 12/12) US will retire approximately 1358 pilots out of 4824 (28%), of which only 54% (738) are actually captain positions. The remaining are FOs (379) and FUR (241).

Over the same period AWA will retire roughly 303 pilots out of 1853 (16%), of which 277 (91%) are captains. The remaining are FOs (26) since we have no one on furlough.

These numbers are rough and I could be off by a few percentage points but I know its close enough for me to draw some conclusions. The East does have a lot of retirements but a good chunk of them occupy FO or furloughed positions so let’s just disregard them completely. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a simple retirement ratio comparison should tell all.

US retires 738 captains out of 4824 pilots, which equals 15 % captain attrition (upgrade opportunity). AWA retires 277 captains out of 1853 pilots, which equals 15% captain attrition.

Maybe my logic is wrong, but I don't think it is if we are focusing strictly on upgrade opportunities. Bottom line, AWA brought just as much meaningful attrition to the party as US. The AWARD was not only fair to the East, in may even be a windfall at West's expense if you consider the pay bumps etc. gained by a joint contract, and the stagnation the west has experienced. Many pilots on the west lost all upgrade opportunity 2 years ago while the east have had many.

 

[flynomore]

Use your head's example closely mirrors what a mid-88 hire of age 45 will experience. Instead of ending a career in the top 100 for five years or so, he/she will barely end in the top 1000.

Those are facts from the birth dates provided by the lists. The great bulge of hiring at both PI and US occured during 1985-1988 and those that remain from that group are severely affected.

Just saying....

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

I understand everything you speak of and agree that would have been your progression absent a merger.

If you asked any west pilot the day the merger was announced all would tell you about the sickening feeling we had and would have given just about anything in exchange for the merger not happening, but it did and there is nothing we can do about it. On the other hand, after the merger was first announced, everyone at US, including pilots, were very excited about the new future that was just carved out for them. I am not implying AWA came to your rescue or any of that because it makes no difference, we are where we are and no one can change it.

If you focus on what your numbers would have been absent the merger then you are completely ignoring the fact a merger took place. Furthermore, if you expected your seniority number to remain as-is then you expected a staple job, and that my friend is the problem you and the rest are coping with now.

The arbitrator and two pilot neutrals felt this was a fair integration based on facts and not emotion. I do not think the award was exactly fair nor do I remotely think there is a windfall to anyone. IMHO there were injustices on both sides of this award, but again it really does not matter at this point. There will not be a re-arbitration and the award will not be overturned by the EC. Please do not take that as inflammatory. It is the truth and I am sorry your MEC is not being forthright with you in this regard. With every merger there are injustices, look at the corporate world and you will find some real ugly situations. In our merger, was it fair Crystal City was shutdown leaving all of those workers displaced without a job? Very few actually made the move to Phoenix. My point is, mergers are ugly and affect EVERYONE, and ours is no different.

If east can’t come to grips with reality and work together with the west, then so be it. Keep the operations separate. We know who the real winners are. Parker et al we reap the benefits in the tune of a minimum 112 million in annual savings keeping us apart.

I have posted the numbers that expose the attrition myth, but for some reason east guys simply can’t understand the concept of relative and what that means. You may have dropped x amount of seniority numbers but you have gained access to additional equipment (140 A/C) and bases (PHX, LAS). East pilots will be able to bid 2/3 of all open captain positions by virtue of the ratio the arbitrator used, which results in only a slight reduction in the combined list versus separate. Furthermore, the furloughed pilots will now benefit from the combined attrition which brings back an additional 300 + pilots over the next 5 years.

Age 65 is going to change so all this attrition will be postponed for another 5 years. The question is do you guys want live with LOA 93 for that period of time? I am perfectly fine with having two operations, one essentially a B scale (east). If there is any “growthâ€￾ aircraft the TA spells it out very clearly the flying will be shared. There will be no more obstacles to actually start “sharingâ€￾ the flying without IOUs after certificate merge in September. After that time the West operation will be under the East certificate and thus capable of flying any additional equipment (growth) placed on the East certificate (e.g. E190, A340, B757, etc.).

Hi all & 'Callsign_Cactus',
I have not posted in quite-a-while; in fact, in any meaningful way since the days of US Airways BK2.

This post is a factual post with regard to my position and those around me before and after the seniority award and it is not meant to convince anyone either way. It does paint a picture of how the award affects folks.

I was hired in January 1986, was a bottom narrowbody Captain/or very senior FO (able to fly A330) when the
merger snapshot was taken. Awd seniority number is 2800 (within 25 numbers) and preaward number 1750 (within 25 numbers)

AWA pilots hired in January 1986 were senior narrowbody captains with no way to fly widebody or international and AWD sen 850 and pre awd 125.

With this picture the AWA pilot can fly TransOceanic now as a 767 or bottom A330 captain, with attrition in the next five years these guys will be very senior A330 Captains as will many of the AWA pilots that are junior to them and placed between myself and these example pilots.

Here is one more fact to be considered. With attrition premerger I would have moved up in a very meaningful way and the last several years enjoyed widebody Transatlantic flying and retiring at age 60 my seniority would be 200.

After the award in 2010 (age 54 for me) my number 2100, in 2011 sen 1900, in 2012 sen 1680, in 2013 sen 1470, in 2014 sen 1260, in 2015 sen 1070, and at age 60 in 2016 sen 880.

So for me, I was going to be one of the very senior people here fly A330 Captain with some seniority, now I will never reach that, period. I just reach what the AWA guys in the example above have today.

Additionally, my AWA counterparts around sen 2800 today are about 40 years old (I am early 50s) and so the picture just painted makes them very senior A330/350 Captains for probably 7 years or so as they continue to move up about 150-200 numbers per year so within 3-4 years they are 1-200 in seniority.

People have have their expectations effected in a negative way (like me never reaching senior widebody captain) and also in a positive way like my 2800 AWA counterparts who never would have flown A330s, let alone be number 1-200 at the fifth largest airline finishing their career flying very senior transoceanic (instead of me doing it).

These are facts as it stands today of how I and the folks around me will have their careers play out.

What kind of reasoning is this? We have the same situation on our side too! Our #1 guy with 24 years is now 500 + number down the list. Seriously, do think our top guys like this award? I can tell you for certain they are feeling a bit betrayed by AWA, and I for one think they got royally hosed. They started the Company! We are a home grown pure bread airline right from the sands of Phoenix bro, and the only major carrier that has survived post deregulation, so I would say those top guys were expecting to retire on top as well...ain't gonna happen.

Use your head's example closely mirrors what a mid-88 hire of age 45 will experience. Instead of ending a career in the top 100 for five years or so, he/she will barely end in the top 1000.

Those are facts from the birth dates provided by the lists. The great bulge of hiring at both PI and US occured during 1985-1988 and those that remain from that group are severely affected.

Just saying....

 

[SkyRat]

I understand everything you speak of and agree that would have been your progression absent a merger.

If you asked any west pilot the day the merger was announced all would tell you about the sickening feeling we had and would have given just about anything in exchange for the merger not happening, but it did and there is nothing we can do about it. On the other hand, after the merger was first announced, everyone at US, including pilots, were very excited about the new future that was just carved out for them. I am not implying AWA came to your rescue or any of that because it makes no difference, we are where we are and no one can change it.

If you focus on what your numbers would have been absent the merger then you are completely ignoring the fact a merger took place. Furthermore, if you expected your seniority number to remain as-is then you expected a staple job, and that my friend is the problem you and the rest are coping with now.

The arbitrator and two pilot neutrals felt this was a fair integration based on facts and not emotion. I do not think the award was exactly fair nor do I remotely think there is a windfall to anyone. IMHO there were injustices on both sides of this award, but again it really does not matter at this point. There will not be a re-arbitration and the award will not be overturned by the EC. Please do not take that as inflammatory. It is the truth and I am sorry your MEC is not being forthright with you in this regard. With every merger there are injustices, look at the corporate world and you will find some real ugly situations. In our merger, was it fair Crystal City was shutdown leaving all of those workers displaced without a job? Very few actually made the move to Phoenix. My point is, mergers are ugly and affect EVERYONE, and ours is no different.

If east can’t come to grips with reality and work together with the west, then so be it. Keep the operations separate. We know who the real winners are. Parker et al we reap the benefits in the tune of a minimum 112 million in annual savings keeping us apart.

I have posted the numbers that expose the attrition myth, but for some reason east guys simply can’t understand the concept of relative and what that means. You may have dropped x amount of seniority numbers but you have gained access to additional equipment (140 A/C) and bases (PHX, LAS). East pilots will be able to bid 2/3 of all open captain positions by virtue of the ratio the arbitrator used, which results in only a slight reduction in the combined list versus separate. Furthermore, the furloughed pilots will now benefit from the combined attrition which brings back an additional 300 + pilots over the next 5 years.

Age 65 is going to change so all this attrition will be postponed for another 5 years. The question is do you guys want live with LOA 93 for that period of time? I am perfectly fine with having two operations, one essentially a B scale (east). If there is any “growthâ€￾ aircraft the TA spells it out very clearly the flying will be shared. There will be no more obstacles to actually start “sharingâ€￾ the flying without IOUs after certificate merge in September. After that time the West operation will be under the East certificate and thus capable of flying any additional equipment (growth) placed on the East certificate (e.g. E190, A340, B757, etc.).
What kind of reasoning is this? We have the same situation on our side too! Our #1 guy with 24 years is now 500 + number down the list. Seriously, do think our top guys like this award? I can tell you for certain they are feeling a bit betrayed by AWA, and I for one think they got royally hosed. They started the Company! We are a home grown pure bread airline right from the sands of Phoenix bro, and the only major carrier that has survived post deregulation, so I would say those top guys were expecting to retire on top as well...ain't gonna happen.

Very interesting and well written post.

Hit right on the NAIL! Time to move on guys and achieve a NICE contract, if not the East will continue on a B-Scale...

GL

 

[EastUS]

"....they got royally hosed. They started the Company! We are a home grown pure bread airline right from the sands of Phoenix bro, and the only major carrier that has survived post deregulation, so I would say those top guys were expecting to retire on top as well...ain't gonna happen."

Since so much is made from "career expectations"/etc................................................
I post the following without improper malice, nor any twist of the truth as per your most senior guys:

They couldn't even get a job at any serious "big league" airline or they would have done so.

AWA was "The Pits" during that period. NO ONE with any sale-able qualifications wanted to work there. Why would they have? There was no pension/lousy work rules, and an insignificant route structure....pretty much like things are today, now that I think on it. I well recall the frequent pity-parties that were conversationally held for 2 members of my reserve squadron that used the place to build more commercial time...only after being very unlucky at other interviews. We literally offered continued encouragement to them that they'd get a "real job" eventually.

 

[UseYourHead]

First, I was not complaining just simply painting a picture of how it effected me. I have been through many mergers. Your number never stays the same unless you are at the top like the 517 who had the slotting start after them (which is how I expected it would happen-protect the wide body folks).

IMHO there is a issue here with attrition in we should progress and end up closer to where we would have absent the merger and there are many ways to accomplish that. Specifically, widebody flying deserves more protection as well as Captain upgrades...everyone has an viewpoint and that is mine. It is not meant to be argumentative or stir the pot so take my viewpoint for what little it is worth.

As far as the award not being overturned, modified, or some other agreement put in place...if I were you I would not be so sure of yourself. As I tell my 9 year-old "Anything is possible" and until the EC meets again and renders its findings I'll have an open mind on that subject, and I suggest you to do the same. It is out of your and my control.

On another note, I look fwd in the years to come flying with you and all your friends!

I look forward to this event becoming something in the rearview mirror so that we all move forward together, obtaining a the joint contract with the pay, benefits, & working conditions we all deserve.

Keep a good thought!

If you focus on what your numbers would have been absent the merger then you are completely ignoring the fact a merger took place. Furthermore, if you expected your seniority number to remain as-is then you expected a staple job, and that my friend is the problem you and the rest are coping with now.

The arbitrator and two pilot neutrals felt this was a fair integration based on facts and not emotion. I do not think the award was exactly fair nor do I remotely think there is a windfall to anyone. IMHO there were injustices on both sides of this award, but again it really does not matter at this point. There will not be a re-arbitration and the award will not be overturned by the EC. Please do not take that as inflammatory. It is the truth and I am sorry your MEC is not being forthright with you in this regard. With every merger there are injustices, look at the corporate world and you will find some real ugly situations. In our merger, was it fair Crystal City was shutdown leaving all of those workers displaced without a job? Very few actually made the move to Phoenix. My point is, mergers are ugly and affect EVERYONE, and ours is no different.

If east can’t come to grips with reality and work together with the west, then so be it. Keep the operations separate. We know who the real winners are. Parker et al we reap the benefits in the tune of a minimum 112 million in annual savings keeping us apart.

I have posted the numbers that expose the attrition myth, but for some reason east guys simply can’t understand the concept of relative and what that means. You may have dropped x amount of seniority numbers but you have gained access to additional equipment (140 A/C) and bases (PHX, LAS). East pilots will be able to bid 2/3 of all open captain positions by virtue of the ratio the arbitrator used, which results in only a slight reduction in the combined list versus separate. Furthermore, the furloughed pilots will now benefit from the combined attrition which brings back an additional 300 + pilots over the next 5 years.

Age 65 is going to change so all this attrition will be postponed for another 5 years. The question is do you guys want live with LOA 93 for that period of time? I am perfectly fine with having two operations, one essentially a B scale (east). If there is any “growthâ€￾ aircraft the TA spells it out very clearly the flying will be shared. There will be no more obstacles to actually start “sharingâ€￾ the flying without IOUs after certificate merge in September. After that time the West operation will be under the East certificate and thus capable of flying any additional equipment (growth) placed on the East certificate (e.g. E190, A340, B757, etc.).
What kind of reasoning is this? We have the same situation on our side too! Our #1 guy with 24 years is now 500 + number down the list. Seriously, do think our top guys like this award? I can tell you for certain they are feeling a bit betrayed by AWA, and I for one think they got royally hosed. They started the Company! We are a home grown pure bread airline right from the sands of Phoenix bro, and the only major carrier that has survived post deregulation, so I would say those top guys were expecting to retire on top as well...ain't gonna happen.