This explains it

[awausairtech]

Was the arbitrator of sound mind at his age ? Pilots can't fly over age 60 but their union agreed to an arbitrator pushing 90 years old ? Disgraceful.

He had the Seniority LOL (no disrespect intended)

 

[Pi brat]

Oops, my mistake - had about 4 different parts of the seniority list open in different windows and sorted the wrong one by DOB.
Sorry - I didn't mean that remark to be directed to you personally, although after re-reading it comes across that way.
I don't doubt that there would be whining on the West side if it had gone the other way. Nobody enjoys being denied what they want. As for the volume and uniformity, who knows - a couple of pilots don't make a mass uprising. But let's look at the other side of that equation. It the award had gone the other way and it was the West pilots that wanted changes, what would the East pilots be saying? Pretty much what the West pilots are saying now?

As I've said before (and over and over), the whole argument seems to be over what might happen. That's some very shifting sands to base any argument on.

Did the US pilots, in the summer of 1990, know that 25% of their group would be furloughed a year later?

Did the US pilots, in 2000, know that 1/3 would be furloughed and the fleet cut by nearly 50% a few years later?

Yet many now claim that the future is clearly visible and can be predicted with absolute certainty.

In reality, the only "sure thing" in aviation is the job a pilot has today. As I've said, if a pilot can hold the same job, fly the same schedules/trips, get the same vacation (summer, winter, whatever) after the award as before, he's kept the only thing he/she could ever count on having. Throw in some relatively minor adjustments (fences, whatever) for the obvious differences between the two operations (like widebodies), and let the future hold what it always holds - the unknown.

On the other hand, and in my opinion, if a pilot's merged seniority # will hold something a lot better than that which his unmerged number could hold - the combined list takes away from one to give to another. Likewise if the combined list seniority won't possibly hold what was held before. Then the only choice, if one is to "right the wrongs", is long and complicated fences. Fences designed to make adjustments to the basic list under a given set of future events. If future events don't pan out as predicted, the fences don't work as predicted and could actually do more harm instead of mitigating harm.

Therefore my version of the KISS theory. Start out with a basically fair list based on what's known absolutely - what each pilot had the seniority to do on his/her own list. Tamper with that - conditions/restrictions - the absolutely least amount possible for whatever differences between the two operations exist.

In your specific case, if you're fortunate enough to not be on disability, the airline doesn't implode, etc, you'd probably get your 1st choice in schedules, trips, vacation, etc as you neared 60 (or whatever the retirement age is then). Is being able to "only" get your 10th or 20th choice, given the number of pilots senior to you who probably won't matter because they're on disability, in a supervisory position, in another base, etc, really worth all this uproar?

Is it really worth working under LOA 93 for the next few years and hoping to improve on it later.

Is it really worth risking Doug/Scott/J Glass deciding they've had enough grief from the East pilots and letting you wither and fade away? You do know that the West pilots can fly all domestic, HI, Canada, Mexico, and nearly half the Europe service as soon as there's a single certificate, the airplanes, and enough bodies to staff them?

Jim

Jim,

You're doing a little preaching to the choir. Again, I've never said I will burn down the house, or it's better to take my toys and go home than accept the award. Because of my age, I'm in a little better place to accept things than some, although I've been saying that to myself for 21 years and sucking it up, without gaining much ground.

My only reason for coming out of the lurker's world has been the reaction of the west guys, and your support of their reasoning. They have said on that they tried to negotiate a more fair integration, and we could have gotten more if we just backed off LOS. Maybe they did, but I have seen no evidence of it. What they proposed to the arbitrator was pretty much a 1 or 1 slot, with save-a-dave in front of our guy who was at about 70-75% of the active list, and almost no restrctions. That didn't meet your "where you were is where you are" standard of fairness. I believe they saw what we saw-an impossible task of fairly negotiating a list and sent the arbitrator their best shot at getting what they wanted. If any west guys want to send me some of their other proposals, send me a pm.

Again, to any west guy-if the award went our way, do you think the guys protesting in Herndon the other day would'nt have been from out west? If it had, I would have expected them to. I would have said "I disagree with you, but I understand how you feel and believe you have every right to express that, and seek any remedies that are legal." But we are supposed to shut up and say, that's life.

As to what may happen in the future, I've been in the "have nots" here for 21 years, so I'm a bit of a pessimist. B-scale, US/PI integration, failed BA F/O program, Metrojet, multiple dispalcements, 55% pay cut, and a post 9/11 divorce will do that. Here's a scenario for you. Doug sees that yields are falling and fuel keeps going up. Thousands of seats are coming into the market with Skybus, Virgin America and Southwest. He decides he doesn't want to raise costs any more, likes those great EMB-190 rates, and says "I've tried, but you guys just won't get on board. I'm going to impose the east contract system wide and combine the company." On June 1 he orders 20 A350s, 30 A321s and another 50 EMB-190s. He decides to park all 757s except enought to fly Hawaii and Europe and replaces the rest with A321s. We will make due with the widebodies we have and wait til 20 whatever for the A350s. All leased 737 and A320s are returned as they expire and the bottom flying is replace with EMB-190s, at rates lower than what Mesa has. The east guys that live out west and are in the top 1000 or so take any vacancies that open in PHX and LAS on the bigger a/c and leave the EMB-190s for the west.(kind of like how US guys ended up on the 727 in CLT even though they were being retired in the late 80s). Think any west guys will bid east? Naw, they don't want anything to do with the east or widebody flying to Europe, they would much rather fly the 190 around the west, no matter what the pay. Yeah, right. Not too hard to imagine, but the west guys seem to think they have nothing to lose with this award.

Guys we are ALL in a lot of hot water. Doug and the boys have screwed this integration up royally. If you don't fly out east you don't know how bad it is, but just ask Art and Piney Bob. Welcome to our world, you now have the US Air curse on you.

 

[BoeingBoy]

My only reason for coming out of the lurker's world has been the reaction of the west guys, and your support of their reasoning.

I guess it may appear that way, but only because I think the award is basically fair. What each side wanted or argued for is really of no consequence.

There are only two areas where I would have done something differently if I had been the arbitrator. I doubt the background info for one of those was presented during the hearings and the other would make my views even less popular among the East pilots - at least the 517, since some F/O's might like it.

I do see lots of specious arguments made by both sides to support their respective views - financial condition of one or the other company, who "bought" who, who "saved" who, age, experience, etc. I can't find any of those enumerated in the merger policy. Reminds me of 2-year olds sometimes....

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Oh - forgot the rest....

Again, to any west guy-if the award went our way, do you think the guys protesting in Herndon the other day would'nt have been from out west? If it had, I would have expected them to. I would have said "I disagree with you, but I understand how you feel and believe you have every right to express that, and seek any remedies that are legal." But we are supposed to shut up and say, that's life.

Personally, I suspect that had the award gone the other way the positions expressed by the two sides would have been reversed. The West folks would have been upset and want something done to "correct the inequities" while the East folks would have been saying "It's final - get over it." All that says is that human nature is alive and well in the 21st century, nothing more.

As to what may happen in the future....<snip>....but the west guys seem to think they have nothing to lose with this award.

Just as the East guys think they have nothing to lose by "forcing" the two groups to remain separate. Neither side is guaranteed to be right - there's risk enough for everyone, not least of which is the current state of the airline operationally. If US doesn't get back on track operationally, everyone may be looking for another job and "winning" or "losing" on the award won't mean anything. Which leads to....

Guys we are ALL in a lot of hot water. Doug and the boys have screwed this integration up royally. If you don't fly out east you don't know how bad it is, but just ask Art and Piney Bob. Welcome to our world, you now have the US Air curse on you.

Ain't that the truth.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Oh - forgot the rest....
Personally, I suspect that had the award gone the other way the positions expressed by the two sides would have been reversed. The West folks would have been upset and want something done to "correct the inequities" while the East folks would have been saying "It's final - get over it." All that says is that human nature is alive and well in the 21st century, nothing more.
Just as the East guys think they have nothing to lose by "forcing" the two groups to remain separate. Neither side is guaranteed to be right - there's risk enough for everyone, not least of which is the current state of the airline operationally. If US doesn't get back on track operationally, everyone may be looking for another job and "winning" or "losing" on the award won't mean anything. Which leads to....
Ain't that the truth.

Jim

Yes Jim, some of the ideas floating around the east scare me more than living with the award. I think some guys think they have nothing to lose. Maybe if I were in their shoes I would too.

Maybe there is a leader out there that can bring these two groups together. I doubt it.

As for me, I'm getting the old logbooks and resume together, AGAIN.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I think some guys think they have nothing to lose.

From some of the things I've seen posted, I think you're right. Of course, thinking there's nothing to lose and actually having nothing to lose are two different things.

Jim

 

[exB717Flyer]

DOH is the only objective method,...

Not true. "Objective" in this sense only means there's no discretion allowed, as in, a formula must be followed. Thus, Relative Seniority is also an objective method. And in my opinion, Relative Seniority is the more fair objective method since it accounts for the vast differences in every merger.

Now, what you really meant to say was that you'd prefer only one integration method (DOH) to use without any alteration. That's your opinion but you lose the moral high ground since DOH may or may not result in huge windfalls. The current system is certainly subjective but by employing neutrals it mimics the US justice system. The whole problem in our present case is the East just really, really, really disagrees with the neutrals. The claims that Nicolau didn't follow the tenets of ALPA Merger Policy is opinion, not fact. Next time you're in court disagree with the judge and see how far that gets you.

 

[Pi brat]

Not true. "Objective" in this sense only means there's no discretion allowed, as in, a formula must be followed. Thus, Relative Seniority is also an objective method. And in my opinion, Relative Seniority is the more fair objective method since it accounts for the vast differences in every merger.

Now, what you really meant to say was that you'd prefer only one integration method (DOH) to use without any alteration. That's your opinion but you lose the moral high ground since DOH may or may not result in huge windfalls. The current system is certainly subjective but by employing neutrals it mimics the US justice system. The whole problem in our present case is the East just really, really, really disagrees with the neutrals. The claims that Nicolau didn't follow the tenets of ALPA Merger Policy is opinion, not fact. Next time you're in court disagree with the judge and see how far that gets you.

You guys didn't propose relative postion to Mr. Nic., you proposed to place those below about 70% of the active list below save-a-dave. Are you saying your proposal wasn't fair?

 

[exB717Flyer]

Are you saying your proposal wasn't fair?

As is normal, we asked for more than we thought we would get. I'm in no position to judge whether it was fair since I stood to benefit.

 

[Pi brat]

As is normal, we asked for more than we thought we would get. I'm in no position to judge whether it was fair since I stood to benefit.

Thank you sir. You have always answered my questions honestly. I think both sides sent Mr. Nic proposals that were too far to their side, hoping that since he didn't have thousands of opinions pulling at him, something fair would come out of it. AAA and AWA pilots differ in opinions about what came out of it, and that is to be expected. I can't think of a merger that everyone thought was fair.

I have long PHX overnights next month, any AWA pilot that wants to come over to Scottsdale, I'll buy the first round. Even you aquagreen.

 

[CactusFlyr]

Thank you sir. You have always answered my questions honestly. I think both sides sent Mr. Nic proposals that were too far to their side, hoping that since he didn't have thousands of opinions pulling at him, something fair would come out of it. AAA and AWA pilots differ in opinions about what came out of it, and that is to be expected. I can't think of a merger that everyone thought was fair.

I have long PHX overnights next month, any AWA pilot that wants to come over to Scottsdale, I'll buy the first round. Even you aquagreen.

For the West pilots to send an extreme position, it would have been a staple. The whole West philosophy during the "negotiations" and the arbitration was to take a relatively middle road. It ended up closer to the West side because we were closer to the middle to begin with.