Article 4 Industry Comparable Pay rate

[Overspeed]

 

 
Too bad the former AMFA dues paying members from NWA, UAL, and AS can't vote to fire AMFA for their superior job protection performance.
 
Fact is that under the TWU scope protection by any measure more jobs are done inhouse where under AMFA scope clauses. AA would love to have the AMFA scope clause in place here. Why? UAL has four to five dock lines under the legacy AMFA scope clause. If that were in place at AA all TUL airframe would be gone just leaving DWH. How about AMFA's WN scope clause at AA? Well no engine overhaul at all, no PALM, and four lines of airframe overhaul. WN outsources more than 60% of their maintenance while AA even under the BK langauge can't go above 35%.
 
AMFA provides more low wage MRO jobs than any other union, hands down.
 
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2012%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Productivity/MX/Percent%20of%20Maintenance%20Expenses%20Outsourced.htm
 
wrong again genius,  what part about may be exceeded don't you understand?  see language of the the TWU contract:
 
 
The below is from our 2012 TWU Aircraft maintenance and Related Contract Article 1.
 
[SIZE=10pt](E)[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] The Company and the Union agree to limit the percentage of all outsourced Aircraft-related Maintenance to not exceed 35%, subject to exclusions or modifications described elsewhere in this agreement. Further, the parties also agree that no more than 15% of Line Maintenance work will be contracted out. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]The percentage set forth in [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]paragraph (E)[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] above may be exceeded in the event: (i) the Company’s then-present employees do not have the normal time and/or skills to perform the work (provided that the manpower shortage is not a result of the Company’s failure to reasonably anticipate and address its headcount requirements); or (ii) the Company’s equipment or facilities are insufficient or are being fully utilized at the time the Company contracts out the work. [/SIZE]

 

 
Another distortion Chuck. The language is to cover sudden high volume work or short term specialized work. If AA is going to add new work that is long term, it cannot violate the percentage. The facilities cannot be undersized intentionally to outsource work. That is not the purpose of the exceedance clause.
 
If you are the type of rep we can expect under AMFA and can't even read a contract then you are the poster boy for why we should not go AMFA. It is run and pushed by people that claim to be professionals but act like uneducated fools.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

 
Another distortion Chuck. The language is to cover sudden high volume work or short term specialized work. If AA is going to add new work that is long term, it cannot violate the percentage. The facilities cannot be undersized intentionally to outsource work. That is not the purpose of the exceedance clause.
 
If you are the type of rep we can expect under AMFA and can't even read a contract then you are the poster boy for why we should not go AMFA. It is run and pushed by people that claim to be professionals but act like uneducated fools.

nice try ace but unfortunately i have seen the TWU in action with contract language and that language states can be exceed 35% and the company can use it anytime they want to create a situation.  you really are naive aren't you Mr. Spinner
 
how many times has management used our own contract langauge against us?  too many to list and past history of the TWU has made me a believer that we are the leading concessionary union hands down

 

[1AA]

 

 
Not true. All work done by non-TWU represented people is considered outsourced work. Again you reveal what an incompetent union rep you were when you told us to vote no on the 2010 TA. You never really read the contracts. The LHR AA employees are not represented by the TWU and therefore considered outsourced costs under the formula. Only TWU represented employees work is considered insourced. The loop hole you speak of doesn't exist. Your lies about the TWU 2010 TA has resulted in thousands AMTs not making $38 and hour four years ago.
 
 
Exactly my point Overspun,   LHR does our work and because it is not in our contract it doesn't matter you say?
That is our work period. so don't put it in the contract and it does not exist under the TWU magic!   you really are stretching to make your argument and you fall so short.   
 

 

Also facture in the A checks and Interior checks now being performed in South America.
That is under the TWU's watch.... Oh I forgot, they can do that brother.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

 
Too bad the former AMFA dues paying members from NWA, UAL, and AS can't vote to fire AMFA for their superior job protection performance. O/S all of these carriers were represented by the IAM before AMFA. So the IAM which your TWU has aligned itself with lost even more members. They even lost Eastern and TWA guys as well. What happened to the AFL-CIO affiliation there?
 
Fact is that under the TWU scope protection by any measure more jobs are done inhouse where under AMFA scope clauses. AA would love to have the AMFA scope clause in place here. Why? UAL has four to five dock lines under the legacy AMFA scope clause. If that were in place at AA all TUL airframe would be gone just leaving DWH. How about AMFA's WN scope clause at AA? Well no engine overhaul at all, no PALM, and four lines of airframe overhaul. WN outsources more than 60% of their maintenance while AA even under the BK language can't go above 35%.
 
Fact is that under the TWU the American TWU represented mechanics have been taught to bend over and give back so much it's a Disgrace. The IGM mentality here and the Scamming of the TWU officers hands down is the worst.
 
AMFA provides more low wage MRO jobs than any other union, hands down.
 
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2012%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Productivity/MX/Percent%20of%20Maintenance%20Expenses%20Outsourced.htm

O/S
 
There may be a vote this time around and then we all will see if the bs that you and the other TWU supporters have attempted to put over on the class and craft members will stand up.
 
Spin as you will, but you must see that the mechanics have had just about enough of the TWU's lies and bs.
 
They (TWU) let the company just run a muk. There is NO fight in the TWU, just lets make a deal. Tell the membership just enough to let them believe they are getting something then pull the rug, when its too late. 
 
Well they can do that brother, we'll getem next time, stock, pension, wages, Holidays, vacation, sick time, and much more. All went away under the TWU. Just as long as you keep the dues coming in the TWU can say "we kept more people working".
 
But at what cost, the future of the airlines mechanics and our careers has been irrevocably damaged. Many will leave AA with little to nothing thanks to the TWU.
 
AMFA at AA 2014

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

 
Another distortion Chuck. The language is to cover sudden high volume work or short term specialized work. If AA is going to add new work that is long term, it cannot violate the percentage. The facilities cannot be undersized intentionally to outsource work. That is not the purpose of the exceedance clause.
 
If you are the type of rep we can expect under AMFA and can't even read a contract then you are the poster boy for why we should not go AMFA. It is run and pushed by people that claim to be professionals but act like uneducated fools.

O/S
 
[SIZE=10pt]The percentage set forth in [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]paragraph (E)[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]above may be exceeded in the event: (i) the Company’s then-present employees do not have the normal time and/or skills to perform the work (provided that the manpower shortage is not a result of the Company’s failure to reasonably anticipate and address its headcount requirements); or (ii) the Company’s equipment or facilities are insufficient or are being fully utilized at the time the Company contracts out the work.  [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]This is the key point what is in BLUE.[/SIZE]
 
What keeps the company from not having the equipment, or facilities? It opens the door and if the company deems it is unable to keep up with competition due to cost, the work gets outsourced. Isn't that what happened to all the TWA guys? StL, KC facilities are what size now compared to what they were?
What's happening in Tulsa as we shed lines since we are getting new aircraft?
 
​Is that going to be what you tell the USAirways guys when the company decides not to keep all the O/H facilities they have now? So if the facility is unintentionally undersized they can do that Brother. Is that going to be your answer?
 
AMFA at AA 2014

 

[Overspeed]

Also facture in the A checks and Interior checks now being performed in South America.
That is under the TWU's watch.... Oh I forgot, they can do that brother.

 
You are picking out pieces and fail to see the whole picture. The fact remains that more work is outsourced under any other CBA than the one currently in place at AA under the TWU. That's a fact.
 
Farm out over 60% of the work, under AMFA at WN they CAN and DO that brother.

 

[Overspeed]

O/S
 
[SIZE=10pt]The percentage set forth in [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]paragraph (E)[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]above may be exceeded in the event: (i) the Company’s then-present employees do not have the normal time and/or skills to perform the work (provided that the manpower shortage is not a result of the Company’s failure to reasonably anticipate and address its headcount requirements); or (ii) the Company’s equipment or facilities are insufficient or are being fully utilized at the time the Company contracts out the work.  [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]This is the key point what is in BLUE.[/SIZE]
 
What keeps the company from not having the equipment, or facilities? It opens the door and if the company deems it is unable to keep up with competition due to cost, the work gets outsourced. Isn't that what happened to all the TWA guys? StL, KC facilities are what size now compared to what they were?
What's happening in Tulsa as we shed lines since we are getting new aircraft?
 
​Is that going to be what you tell the USAirways guys when the company decides not to keep all the O/H facilities they have now? So if the facility is unintentionally undersized they can do that Brother. Is that going to be your answer?
 
AMFA at AA 2014

 
The language that says what is normal. Normal for a 600 aircraft airline was set based on the attachment concerning what work was intended to be outsourced. If the new normal for a airline double that size is double the facilities it has for the 600 aircraft airline, than the locals must argue that was the intent of the language.
 
The US capacity is still under the US/IAM CBA. A JCBA must be negotitated so anyone telling them that PIT is going to close because of the TWU CBA would be lying. The TWU CBA is concerns the legacy AA operation at this time.
 
The STL/MCI work was downsized because we no longer have an 825 fleet. We also have a newer fleet. The CBA Art 1 language has to do with a measure of work being done annually by AA. If the work is reduced due to fleet size shrinkage then facilities and AMTs would also shrink.
 
Unintentionally undersized? Doesn't matter. If the capacity to normally do 65% of the work inhouse isn't there, then AA has violated the intent of the language.

 

[Overspeed]

O/S
 
There may be a vote this time around and then we all will see if the bs that you and the other TWU supporters have attempted to put over on the class and craft members will stand up.
 
Spin as you will, but you must see that the mechanics have had just about enough of the TWU's lies and bs.
 
They (TWU) let the company just run a muk. There is NO fight in the TWU, just lets make a deal. Tell the membership just enough to let them believe they are getting something then pull the rug, when its too late. 
 
Well they can do that brother, we'll getem next time, stock, pension, wages, Holidays, vacation, sick time, and much more. All went away under the TWU. Just as long as you keep the dues coming in the TWU can say "we kept more people working".
 
But at what cost, the future of the airlines mechanics and our careers has been irrevocably damaged. Many will leave AA with little to nothing thanks to the TWU.
 
AMFA at AA 2014

 
So when will AMFA get'em? Will they "get'em" if we bring in AMFA at AA like they got'em at NW? How about AS? Will AMFA at AA get'em like they got'em when AS management shutdown all AS overhaul? Or maybe AMFA at AA will get'em like they got'em at UA when the completed the trashing of the all but three lines of airframe overhaul in SFO once AMFA got in?
 
AMFA at AA! We tried to get'em at NW, at UA, and AS but this time we will do better at AA. Give us a chance! What have you got to lose...oh yeah...your job.

 

[MetalMover]

 
So when will AMFA get'em? Will they "get'em" if we bring in AMFA at AA like they got'em at NW? How about AS? Will AMFA at AA get'em like they got'em when AS management shutdown all AS overhaul? Or maybe AMFA at AA will get'em like they got'em at UA when the completed the trashing of the all but three lines of airframe overhaul in SFO once AMFA got in?
 
AMFA at AA! We tried to get'em at NW, at UA, and AS but this time we will do better at AA. Give us a chance! What have you got to lose...oh yeah...your job.

HMMMMMMMMM..What is TULE's current headcount compared to what it USED to be? What is the current status of AFW?  MCI? 

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

 
So when will AMFA get'em? Will they "get'em" if we bring in AMFA at AA like they got'em at NW? How about AS? Will AMFA at AA get'em like they got'em when AS management shutdown all AS overhaul? Or maybe AMFA at AA will get'em like they got'em at UA when the completed the trashing of the all but three lines of airframe overhaul in SFO once AMFA got in?
 
AMFA at AA! We tried to get'em at NW, at UA, and AS but this time we will do better at AA. Give us a chance! What have you got to lose...oh yeah...your job.

 
O/S
 
Just How many guy's have we lost here at AA with the TWU since 2001?
 
If the TWU is soooo Good tell us which of the TOP carriers (other than AA) does the TWU represent? (mechanics)
 
What you fail to admit is that when a union goes on strike like at NWA the membership votes to do so. The IAM did at Eastern.  Tell us when the TWU stood up to AA and said we are not taking any more concessions? 
 
Now UAL has been combined carrier since when? almost 7 yrs now same union, still no contract, or merged seniority. USAirways with AW still the pilots are at odds.
 
The longer we stay fighting about who will be the union on the property, the longer we will NOT get a JBCA. But that keeps the dues coming into the TWU doesn't it? That is what the AFL-CIO wanted isn't it?
 
Alaska airlines when do you hear any negative from them or the SWA guys? AMFA must be something right. Only the carriers with the industrial unions AA-UAL/CAL-US.
 
Lets bring a vote here to AA and see which union AMFA or the TWU wins out.
 
AMFA at AA 2014

 

[Overspeed]

 
O/S
 
Just How many guy's have we lost here at AA with the TWU since 2001?
 
If the TWU is soooo Good tell us which of the TOP carriers (other than AA) does the TWU represent? (mechanics)
 
What you fail to admit is that when a union goes on strike like at NWA the membership votes to do so. The IAM did at Eastern.  Tell us when the TWU stood up to AA and said we are not taking any more concessions? 
 
Now UAL has been combined carrier since when? almost 7 yrs now same union, still no contract, or merged seniority. USAirways with AW still the pilots are at odds.
 
The longer we stay fighting about who will be the union on the property, the longer we will NOT get a JBCA. But that keeps the dues coming into the TWU doesn't it? That is what the AFL-CIO wanted isn't it?
 
Alaska airlines when do you hear any negative from them or the SWA guys? AMFA must be something right. Only the carriers with the industrial unions AA-UAL/CAL-US.
 
Lets bring a vote here to AA and see which union AMFA or the TWU wins out.
 
AMFA at AA 2014

 
Perfect breakdown of the airline industry and how labor is under attack. UA...no contract and more work outsourced than AA. US/HP...years after merger and still negotiating. IAM got killed at EAL and the airline went BK all jobs gone. NW broke AMFA and all but 800 jobs. DL told AMFA to take a hike.
 
AS...yes lets ask the 350 overhaul AMTs at OAK how they felt when AMFA did not keep the work inhouse when it was in their contract and the airline wasn't in BK. Great job AMFA. WN we all know the story, yes they have never laid anyone off. You do know that no one has been laid off at WN and the TWU has the industry leading FA contract in place there. Any union can do well in good times, it is how they perform in bad times. Not one airline AMFA represented in BK still has AMFA members. Not UA, not NW, and no one wanted to jump onboard at DL. How long has AMFA been negotiating at WN? Three years?
 
Now let's look at the TWU at AA. They maintained the pension credit longer than any other union and kept more work inhouse and still keep more work inhouse than any other union. AMFA fought, lost, and sent more AMT jobs to low wage MROs than any other union in the "fight" they are undertaking. The leadership at AMFA say they are fighting and not taking concessions but that's not true...the concessions are being taken over the broken careers of licensed AMTs they claimed to represent.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

 
Perfect breakdown of the airline industry and how labor is under attack. UA...no contract and more work outsourced than AA. US/HP...years after merger and still negotiating. IAM got killed at EAL and the airline went BK all jobs gone. NW broke AMFA and all but 800 jobs. DL told AMFA to take a hike.
 
AS...yes lets ask the 350 overhaul AMTs at OAK how they felt when AMFA did not keep the work inhouse when it was in their contract and the airline wasn't in BK. Great job AMFA. WN we all know the story, yes they have never laid anyone off. You do know that no one has been laid off at WN and the TWU has the industry leading FA contract in place there. Any union can do well in good times, it is how they perform in bad times. Not one airline AMFA represented in BK still has AMFA members. Not UA, not NW, and no one wanted to jump onboard at DL. How long has AMFA been negotiating at WN? Three years?
 
Now let's look at the TWU at AA. They maintained the pension credit longer than any other union and kept more work inhouse and still keep more work inhouse than any other union. AMFA fought, lost, and sent more AMT jobs to low wage MROs than any other union in the "fight" they are undertaking. The leadership at AMFA say they are fighting and not taking concessions but that's not true...the concessions are being taken over the broken careers of licensed AMTs they claimed to represent.

we did not keep the pension credit overspun.......we paid for it remember..  i was there and they sold the farm in concessions to keep the pension only to lose it anyway.  i am really getting tired of your spin factors
 
you are lying, the TWU is and always will be the leading concessionary union. the proof has been posted over and over again.   we lost our careers under the TWU and 50% of our members since 2001

 

[Rogallo]

Damn you guys make it hard to figure out which organization sucks the least!

 

[Overspeed]

we did not keep the pension credit overspun.......we paid for it remember..  i was there and they sold the farm in concessions to keep the pension only to lose it anyway.  i am really getting tired of your spin factors
 
you are lying, the TWU is and always will be the leading concessionary union. the proof has been posted over and over again.   we lost our careers under the TWU and 50% of our members since 2001

 
So we did get to keep the pension. You were there but I doubt you paid attention. You have already proven that you don't really read the contract.
 
Truth is we could have pushed for full pay to the last day but in the end we would have probably ended up like all the others. UA, US, NW, and HP. Thousands of jobs lost, frozen or terminated DBP, retiree medical stripped, and a very high cost medical back in 2003. Instead the TWU provided an opportunity for you to earn pension credit, thousands to contiune working, a few more failed opportunites for AMFA organizing drives (2004 and 2013), and the opportunity for AMFA to show us at NW and UA how a "real union" fights and gets shafted in BK court.

 

[Realityck]

 
So we did get to keep the pension. You were there but I doubt you paid attention. You have already proven that you don't really read the contract.
 
Truth is we could have pushed for full pay to the last day but in the end we would have probably ended up like all the others. UA, US, NW, and HP. Thousands of jobs lost, frozen or terminated DBP, retiree medical stripped, and a very high cost medical back in 2003. Instead the TWU provided an opportunity for you to earn pension credit, thousands to contiune working, a few more failed opportunites for AMFA organizing drives (2004 and 2013), and the opportunity for AMFA to show us at NW and UA how a "real union" fights and gets shafted in BK court.

 
 
Right on Brother 
 
 
 
 
United Airlines
 
Filed for bankruptcy: Dec. 9, 2002
Length of time in bankruptcy: 38 months
Capacity changes: 20 percent fewer airplanes; trimmed capacity by 8 percent
Job cuts: 30 percent fewer employees, about 58,000
Wage/benefit cuts: Terminated defined-benefit pensions; average pay for pilots, mechanics and ground workers dropped about 35 percent; flight attendants' average pay declined 20 percent
 
US Airways
 
Filed for bankruptcy: Aug. 11, 2002, and again Sept. 12, 2004
Length of time in bankruptcy: seven months the first time, about 12.5 months the second time
Capacity changes: From its first bankruptcy until it emerged from its second, the carrier cut only 5 percent of capacity but shed 25 percent of its fleet to 358 aircraft
Job cuts: 32 percent fewer workers, about 21,000
Wage/benefit cuts: Mechanics and ground crew were hit the hardest, with average pay down 30 percent. Pilots took a 21 percent cut, while flight attendants' average pay remained flat. Pensions were terminated.
 
Delta Air Lines
 
Filed for bankruptcy: Sept. 14, 2005
Length of time in bankruptcy: 19.5 months
Capacity changes: Shrank fleet by 11 percent to 578 aircraft, reduced domestic capacity by 16 percent
Job cuts: 17 percent fewer employees, about 47,000
Wage/benefit cuts: Terminated pilot pension plan; average pilot pay declined 38 percent; average pay for flight attendants, mechanics and ground workers dropped by 18 to 21 percent
 
Northwest Airlines
 
Filed for bankruptcy: Sept. 14, 2005
Length of time in bankruptcy: 20.5 months
Capacity changes: Cut total capacity by 6 percent; disposed of 15 percent of its aircraft, leaving 371
Job cuts: 17 percent fewer workers, about 30,000
Wage/benefit cuts: Average pay for pilots, ground crew and flight attendants declined by 8 to 15 percent
while AMFA represented mechanics took the biggest hit, 41 percent