April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[cactusboy53]

Read the MOU. USAPA survives and is funded until the end product of M/B. Almost all of you voted for it, at least read it.

Read the USAPA CBL, there is nothing in it about giving a subset of the US Airways pilot group any moneys. It’s all DOH moneys, as per a vote. If you have other goals, start your own union.

I have said it here many times, and no joking...I hope this entire process gets mired in the courts for years. The longer the better. And I want to be in the court in NY when Parker tries to explain why he will NOT be able to merge the pilots for years and years, especially with his history. The merger will proceed, but he and Siegel will be dancing.

No injunction. Ripe. Dismissed.

Greeter

[font="Times New Roman""]MR. MOLLEN: Right. Right.[/font]
[font="Times New Roman""]But from our perspective, Your Honor, the Ninth Circuit has not ruled that the case isn't ripe, it held that it wasn't ripe. [/font]
[font="Times New Roman""] [/font]
[font="Times New Roman""]Now that we've got the MOU in place and we're moving rapidly towards seniority integration under this merger the question of whether USAPA has to come to that particular integration process with a Nicolau-based list or not is ripe as it can be. It will never be more ripe. We are there, we have reached that juncture…….[/font]
[font="Times New Roman""] [/font]
[font="Times New Roman""]NEAL D. MOLLEN, ESQ., DEBEVOISE & PLIMPTON LLP Special Aircraft Counsel to the Debtors[/font]

[font="Times New Roman""]US Bankruptcy Court Transcripts: April 3, 2013[/font]

 

[Walmartgreeter]

3 We do not address the thorny question of the extent to which the Nicolau Award is binding on USAPA. We note, as the district court recognized, that USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nicolau Award as was its predecessor, ALPA. The dissent appears implicitly to assume that the Nicolau Award, the product of the internal rules and processes of ALPA, is binding on USAPA.

Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals Opinion

Case: 09-16564 06/04/2010

The dissent. The losing side. There was no tie in the NInth. But you know that Dave.

Greeter

 

[mrbreeze]

[font=Arial"]3 [/font][font=Times New Roman"]We do not address the thorny question of the extent to which the Nicolau Award is binding on USAPA. We note, as the district court recognized, that USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nicolau Award as was its predecessor, ALPA. The dissent appears implicitly to assume that the Nicolau Award, the product of the internal rules and processes of ALPA, is binding on USAPA. [/font]

[font=Times New Roman"]Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals Opinion[/font]

[font=Times New Roman"]Case: 09-16564 06/04/2010[/font]

Again, Dave,

This is stuff from the past that Silver is not interested in rehashing.
breeze

 

[Pi brat]

MR. MOLLEN: Right. Right.
But from our perspective, Your Honor, the Ninth Circuit has not ruled that the case isn't ripe, it held that it wasn't ripe.

Now that we've got the MOU in place and we're moving rapidly towards seniority integration under this merger the question of whether USAPA has to come to that particular integration process with a Nicolau-based list or not is ripe as it can be. It will never be more ripe. We are there, we have reached that juncture…….

NEAL D. MOLLEN, ESQ., DEBEVOISE & PLIMPTON LLP Special Aircraft Counsel to the Debtors

US Bankruptcy Court Transcripts: April 3, 2013

Oh, Mr. Mollen says it's ripe. Well in that case...Why didn't you say so earlier?

 

[Walmartgreeter]

MR. MOLLEN: Right. Right.
But from our perspective, Your Honor, the Ninth Circuit has not ruled that the case isn't ripe, it held that it wasn't ripe.

Now that we've got the MOU in place and we're moving rapidly towards seniority integration under this merger the question of whether USAPA has to come to that particular integration process with a Nicolau-based list or not is ripe as it can be. It will never be more ripe. We are there, we have reached that juncture…….

NEAL D. MOLLEN, ESQ., DEBEVOISE & PLIMPTON LLP Special Aircraft Counsel to the Debtors

US Bankruptcy Court Transcripts: April 3, 2013

And what powers do the UCC have over any USAPA pilot prior to the POR? I will answer. None.

Again, what moves the merger forward and saves tens of thousands of jobs? More appeals? More litigation? Or a dismissal with the invitation so sue upon a JCBA? The Ninth already pointed the way, Judge Silver will follow. The UCC can pound sand. We already have an agreement with them, effective upon the POR. If they want to change it, they can get all the parties to reopen the MOU. If they want to complain in court about RLA issues, that is their right to not have a clue.

Greeter

 

[Phoenix]

[font=Arial"]3 [/font][font=Times New Roman"]We do not address the thorny question of the extent to which the Nicolau Award is binding on USAPA. We note, as the district court recognized, that USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nicolau Award as was its predecessor, ALPA. The dissent appears implicitly to assume that the Nicolau Award, the product of the internal rules and processes of ALPA, is binding on USAPA. [/font]

[font=Times New Roman"]Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals Opinion[/font]

[font=Times New Roman"]Case: 09-16564 06/04/2010[/font]

Yes, the majority was kind enough to point out the fatal flaw in the dissent's rationale. Ironically Nic4US, prechil, et al., hold to the same fatal rationale. I am a bit surprised you seem to think it somehow bolsters your position, and posting it twice today no less...

 

[mrbreeze]

[font=Arial"]3 [/font][font=Times New Roman"]We do not address the thorny question of the extent to which the Nicolau Award is binding on USAPA. We note, as the district court recognized, that USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nicolau Award as was its predecessor, ALPA. The dissent appears implicitly to assume that the Nicolau Award, the product of the internal rules and processes of ALPA, is binding on USAPA. [/font]

[font=Times New Roman"]Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals Opinion[/font]

[font=Times New Roman"]Case: 09-16564 06/04/2010[/font]

Dave,
I do appreciate and respect your stepping up to the plate and doing everything that you can to represent your comrades. I truly believe your heart is in the right place and I respect that.

One of the reasons that Chip is so hated by the East pilots is that he gave us false hope during the United merger back in the late 90's. Many pilots lost 10s of thousands of dollars or more, because they trusted in what Chip told the pilot group. He had a blog on the ALPA webboard called "rumor control", preaching that the merger was a done deal......then it fell apart.

You seem like a good guy.....just don't let yourself become another Chip.

breeze

 

[cleardirect]

And what powers do the UCC have over any USAPA pilot prior to the POR? I will answer. None.

Again, what moves the merger forward and saves tens of thousands of jobs? More appeals? More litigation? Or a dismissal with the invitation so sue upon a JCBA? The Ninth already pointed the way, Judge Silver will follow. The UCC can pound sand. We already have an agreement with them, effective upon the POR. If they want to change it, they can get all the parties to reopen the MOU. If they want to complain in court about RLA issues, that is their right to not have a clue.

Greeter

What power does the UCC have over Us Airways pilots? You need to ask that question?

The UCC controls the merger which means they control Parker. Do you think Parker is going to let usapa mess up his merger? A dismissed case does not end Parker's problem or get him to the merger.

Parker does not need the court to do anything. Parker can step up and do what he should have done 5 years ago. He accepted the Nicolau per the T/A. All Parker has to do is tell usapa the Nicolau is the list, do not pass go do not collect $200. It would be over. No negotiations, no more wasting time with usapa. Tell you east pilots the one and only seniority list is the Nicolau. The APA will be the bargaining agent before you can get to court. You would have no case anyway.

Only option usapa would have is a minor dispute and have to take it to you guessed it, arbitration to interpret a contract. THAT is the way the RLA works. Once again the APA will be the bargaining agent and they will not pursue that grievance. All they have to do is use the usapa argument. Breaking the logjam and you got a big raise and better contract. Putting an end to the dispute is in the best interest of the entire pilots group. That is what you told the court right.

Any guess what an arbitrator will do? Take the companies side that is living up to their agreement or usapa's side that has proven to be the biggest pain in the a$$ in the industry and that would continue the uncertainly and cost the company hundreds of millions of dollars?


Keep pushing the money man into the corner and you are going to have a mad dog on your hands and he is going to bite. As you said you already have an agreement. They don't need anything else from usapa. There is no more votes

But have Shamanski keep filing that BS like he did today. It is only a little over an hour left for the company to file after reading usapa's filing. Why is it taking so long do you think? Because Siegal is about to #### slap the crap out of usapa.

After 8 years of dealing with you east pilots. Hearing the lies and bad acts. Costing all of us money. The court the company, APA, AMR and the UCC have all seen the failure of usapa. These 4 words from the west filing today sum it up. The delay, the law suits, the illegal job action all of it.

Something must be done.

usapa's rein of terror is about to end.

 

[Metroyet]

And what powers do the UCC have over any USAPA pilot prior to the POR? I will answer. None.

Again, what moves the merger forward and saves tens of thousands of jobs? More appeals? More litigation? Or a dismissal with the invitation so sue upon a JCBA? The Ninth already pointed the way, Judge Silver will follow. The UCC can pound sand. We already have an agreement with them, effective upon the POR. If they want to change it, they can get all the parties to reopen the MOU. If they want to complain in court about RLA issues, that is their right to not have a clue.

Greeter

Where in the MOU did the UCC agree to anything regarding this dispute? What would they be changing on you? Why not resubmit for a second arbitration? The West offered a variety of concessions in the Siegel talks. It was USAPA that refused to budge... But only after they forced total secrecy. Are any lights going off yet that maybe USAPA has gone just a wee bit too far?

 

[mrbreeze]

What power does the UCC have over Us Airways pilots? You need to ask that question?

The UCC controls the merger which means they control Parker. Do you think Parker is going to let usapa mess up his merger? A dismissed case does not end Parker's problem or get him to the merger.

Parker does not need the court to do anything. Parker can step up and do what he should have done 5 years ago. He accepted the Nicolau per the T/A. All Parker has to do is tell usapa the Nicolau is the list, do not pass go do not collect $200. It would be over. No negotiations, no more wasting time with usapa. Tell you east pilots the one and only seniority list is the Nicolau. The APA will be the bargaining agent before you can get to court. You would have no case anyway.

Only option usapa would have is a minor dispute and have to take it to you guessed it, arbitration to interpret a contract. THAT is the way the RLA works. Once again the APA will be the bargaining agent and they will not pursue that grievance. All they have to do is use the usapa argument. Breaking the logjam and you got a big raise and better contract. Putting an end to the dispute is in the best interest of the entire pilots group.

Keep pushing the money man into the corner and you are going to have a mad dog on your hands and he is going to bite. As you said you already have an agreement. They don't need anything else from usapa. There is no more votes

More Sheldon fantasies......

1st of all.....Parker doesn't give a rat's ###, as long as the merger goes through. He knows that this is an internal union dispute and will not affect the merger.

2nd of all, Parker could give a rat's ### about you and me.

Parker is only going to do whatever he can to fill his wallet......never the honorable, right thing.

The only reason management, AMR, UCC , and APA is claiming ripeness is because it only serves their purpose in getting this merger done.....the path of least resistance.

It doesn't have a thing to do with right and wrong, or who deserves what.
breeze

 

[mrbreeze]

What power does the UCC have over Us Airways pilots? You need to ask that question?

The UCC controls the merger which means they control Parker. Do you think Parker is going to let usapa mess up his merger? A dismissed case does not end Parker's problem or get him to the merger.

Parker does not need the court to do anything. Parker can step up and do what he should have done 5 years ago. He accepted the Nicolau per the T/A. All Parker has to do is tell usapa the Nicolau is the list, do not pass go do not collect $200. It would be over. No negotiations, no more wasting time with usapa. Tell you east pilots the one and only seniority list is the Nicolau. The APA will be the bargaining agent before you can get to court. You would have no case anyway.

Only option usapa would have is a minor dispute and have to take it to you guessed it, arbitration to interpret a contract. THAT is the way the RLA works. Once again the APA will be the bargaining agent and they will not pursue that grievance. All they have to do is use the usapa argument. Breaking the logjam and you got a big raise and better contract. Putting an end to the dispute is in the best interest of the entire pilots group. That is what you told the court right.

Any guess what an arbitrator will do? Take the companies side that is living up to their agreement or usapa's side that has proven to be the biggest pain in the a$$ in the industry and that would continue the uncertainly and cost the company hundreds of millions of dollars?


Keep pushing the money man into the corner and you are going to have a mad dog on your hands and he is going to bite. As you said you already have an agreement. They don't need anything else from usapa. There is no more votes

But have Shamanski keep filing that BS like he did today. It is only a little over an hour left for the company to file after reading usapa's filing. Why is it taking so long do you think? Because Siegal is about to #### slap the crap out of usapa.

After 8 years of dealing with you east pilots. Hearing the lies and bad acts. Costing all of us money. The court the company, APA, AMR and the UCC have all seen the failure of usapa. These 4 words from the west filing today sum it up. The delay, the law suits, the illegal job action all of it.

Something must be done.

usapa's rein of terror is about to end.

Yeah,

And the court's response,

"STFU and go home"

 

[nycbusdriver]

Parker is only going to do whatever he can to fill his wallet......never the honorable, right thing.

I don't disagree, but I think you miss an equally essential point:

Parker is also going to do whatever he can to stroke his ego as he salivates at the thought of running the world's largest airline.

I really don't think, in Parker's case, it is ALL about the money.

 

[Phoenix]

[font=Arial"]3 [/font][font=Times New Roman"]We do not address the thorny question of the extent to which the Nicolau Award is binding on USAPA. We note, as the district court recognized, that USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nicolau Award as was its predecessor, ALPA. The dissent appears implicitly to assume that the Nicolau Award, the product of the internal rules and processes of ALPA, is binding on USAPA. [/font]

[font=Times New Roman"]Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals Opinion[/font]

[font=Times New Roman"]Case: 09-16564 06/04/2010[/font]

Since you brought it up again...

The language the majority used clearly shows they envisioned at least some circumstances in which ALPA (or USAPA too) could legitimately abandon the Nic, and they were precise and thorough enough to point out the dissent implicitly assumed they were not.

"Implicit assumption" apparently isn't a valid legal basis... and Judge Silver seems to understand that, as she said a couple times on the 14th, "and the 9th is always right!"

 

[A320 Driver]

More Sheldon fantasies......

1st of all.....Parker doesn't give a rat's ###, as long as the merger goes through. He knows that this is an internal union dispute and will not affect the merger.

2nd of all, Parker could give a rat's ### about you and me.

Parker is only going to do whatever he can to fill his wallet......never the honorable, right thing.

The only reason management, AMR, UCC , and APA is claiming ripeness is because it only serves their purpose in getting this merger done.....the path of least resistance.

It doesn't have a thing to do with right and wrong, or who deserves what.
breeze

Exactly... neutrality and the case not being ripe suited management's purposes just fine as long as they could keep us on LOA93, refuse to enter into serious negotiations and save themselves $100+ million a year. Now, there is another source of cash and our little spat is getting in the way. I believe that management could have brokered a deal many times over the last 6 years but that wasn't the cheap thing to do.

 

[Claxon]

What power does the UCC have over Us Airways pilots? You need to ask that question?

The UCC controls the merger which means they control Parker. Do you think Parker is going to let usapa mess up his merger? A dismissed case does not end Parker's problem or get him to the merger.

Parker does not need the court to do anything. Parker can step up and do what he should have done 5 years ago. He accepted the Nicolau per the T/A. All Parker has to do is tell usapa the Nicolau is the list, do not pass go do not collect $200. It would be over. No negotiations, no more wasting time with usapa. Tell you east pilots the one and only seniority list is the Nicolau. The APA will be the bargaining agent before you can get to court. You would have no case anyway.

Only option usapa would have is a minor dispute and have to take it to you guessed it, arbitration to interpret a contract. THAT is the way the RLA works. Once again the APA will be the bargaining agent and they will not pursue that grievance. All they have to do is use the usapa argument. Breaking the logjam and you got a big raise and better contract. Putting an end to the dispute is in the best interest of the entire pilots group. That is what you told the court right.

Any guess what an arbitrator will do? Take the companies side that is living up to their agreement or usapa's side that has proven to be the biggest pain in the a$$ in the industry and that would continue the uncertainly and cost the company hundreds of millions of dollars?


Keep pushing the money man into the corner and you are going to have a mad dog on your hands and he is going to bite. As you said you already have an agreement. They don't need anything else from usapa. There is no more votes

But have Shamanski keep filing that BS like he did today. It is only a little over an hour left for the company to file after reading usapa's filing. Why is it taking so long do you think? Because Siegal is about to #### slap the crap out of usapa.

After 8 years of dealing with you east pilots. Hearing the lies and bad acts. Costing all of us money. The court the company, APA, AMR and the UCC have all seen the failure of usapa. These 4 words from the west filing today sum it up. The delay, the law suits, the illegal job action all of it.

Something must be done.

usapa's rein of terror is about to end.

Captain Gay is slowly coming undone. He lectures you on why he says USAPA could not get a contract, yet he appears in his strange manner offering false evidence to his CEO.
He thinks a corporate lawyer makes decisions for labor unions.
Just remember what Scott Kirby said to him. "NO"