April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Zone5]

Smallest airline with one base? Where do you work?

I work for US airways. There are 4 bases. My airplanes says us airways on it. My uniform has us airways wings on it. My CEO is Doug Parker. Who is your CEO?

My airline has 26 WB airplanes. How many does your airline have?

I pay extortion dues to a fake union called usapa. Who do you pay dues to? Unless usapa is willing to refund the west pilots all of the money usapa has collected I unfortunately an a usapa member. Are you?

My career expectations are based on an airline called us airways merging with an airline called American. Who are you merging with?

If you work for us airways you and I have the exact same assets going into this merger. We have the exact same contract. If you were furloughed in 2005 you are going to less seniority than I do.

You really have lost all your grip on reality! It you ever had any, which is debatable.

What seniority list are you on?

Is it DOH based or "something" else?

How many West pilots are still on furlough and why?

How much of your current flying really belongs to the East?

Is your contract the exact same one you had at the "merger" and why is that?

How is that 330 bid looking for you in Aug 2013?

How do you think it will look in 2014, 2015?

You really just don't get it, after your "meteoric" rise in the airline pilot world, quite impressive, 9-5 pencil pusher, to B-1900 and then on to the "big leagues" with America Worst! Why wouldn't you feel "entitled" to that 777! You deserve it! I'm just in awe of not only your pilots resume but you demonstrated "excellence" as a crew room lawyer and vociferous pontificator! I sure hope Judge Silver makes your dreams come true, I can't think of anyone I would rather "step aside for" than someone as totally deserving and magnificent as you and your "Spartan" brothers!


seajay

 

[Claxon]

Every West pilot understands you don't have a clue.

At least Claxon buries his ignorance under a mountain of cut and paste and videos.

Speaking of cut and paste. Your Piedmont pilot pappy got you the job at US Airways after he received his lump sum retirement payment right before the PBGC took over, both using his influence. Here is what your daddy thought was fair during his merger with the Empire pilots. Another cut and paste of the past that haunts you and your lineage;


PIEDMONT AVIATION, INC.
as represented by
THE AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION,
INTERNATIONAL

EMPIRE MERGER

THIS LETTER OF AGREEMENT is made and entered into i n accordance with the
provisions of Title I1 of the Railway Labor Act, as amended, by and between
Piedmont Aviation, Incorporated (hereinafter referred to as the "Company) and
the Air Line Pilots Association, International (hereinafter referred t o as the
"Association).
W ITNESSETH

WHEREAS the Company and the Association wish to enter into an agreement with
respect t o the manner i n by which the basic collective bargaining agreement
between the parties, dated June 12, 1984, and associated letters of agreement,
shall be applied to matters related to the merger of the Empire Airlines p i l o t s
into Piedmont, it is therefore mutually agreed as follows:

"SENIORITY:

Seniority s h a l l continue t o be governed by the provisions of Section 19 of the
Basic Agreement except as follows:

A. Former Empire p i l o t s shall be placed on the Piedmont Pilot System
Seniority List on January 3, 1986 following the most junior Piedmont
p i l o t i n the same order that they appear on the Empire Pilot Seniority
List dated January 15, 1986.
B. The period of probation for former Empire p i l o t s s h a l l not exceed
t w l v e (12) months of combined service as a p i l o t with Empire and
Piedmont.

C. The former Enpire p i l o t s whose names appear on the Protected F-28
Captain's List shall remain in F-28 Captain positions, although not i n
strict order of system seniority, u n t i l they elect t o bid another
category or status. hce a p i l o t whose nane appears on the Protected
F-28 Captain's List bids another category or s t a t u s , he shall revert
to system seniority i n a l l respects."

 

[nycbusdriver]

Speaking of cut and paste. Your Piedmont pilot pappy got you the job at US Airways after he received his lump sum retirement payment right before the PBGC took over, both using his influence. Here is what your daddy thought was fair during his merger with the Empire pilots. Another cut and paste of the past that haunts you and your lineage;


PIEDMONT AVIATION, INC.
as represented by
THE AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION,
INTERNATIONAL

EMPIRE MERGER

THIS LETTER OF AGREEMENT is made and entered into i n accordance with the
provisions of Title I1 of the Railway Labor Act, as amended, by and between
Piedmont Aviation, Incorporated (hereinafter referred to as the "Company) and
the Air Line Pilots Association, International (hereinafter referred t o as the
"Association).
W ITNESSETH

WHEREAS the Company and the Association wish to enter into an agreement with
respect t o the manner i n by which the basic collective bargaining agreement
between the parties, dated June 12, 1984, and associated letters of agreement,
shall be applied to matters related to the merger of the Empire Airlines p i l o t s
into Piedmont, it is therefore mutually agreed as follows:

"SENIORITY:

Seniority s h a l l continue t o be governed by the provisions of Section 19 of the
Basic Agreement except as follows:

A. Former Empire p i l o t s shall be placed on the Piedmont Pilot System
Seniority List on January 3, 1986 following the most junior Piedmont
p i l o t i n the same order that they appear on the Empire Pilot Seniority
List dated January 15, 1986.
B. The period of probation for former Empire p i l o t s s h a l l not exceed
t w l v e (12) months of combined service as a p i l o t with Empire and
Piedmont.

C. The former Enpire p i l o t s whose names appear on the Protected F-28
Captain's List shall remain in F-28 Captain positions, although not i n
strict order of system seniority, u n t i l they elect t o bid another
category or status. hce a p i l o t whose nane appears on the Protected
F-28 Captain's List bids another category or s t a t u s , he shall revert
to system seniority i n a l l respects."

This was blatantly unfair to the Empire captains. (I said so at the time, but no one listens to a mere crew dog...especially not ALPA or the arrogant MEC chair at the time.) It was another arrogant, ALPA slam and they did it because: 1) They could, and 2) There was some vengeful politics involved regarding representation. It was a precursor to the TWA fiasco with American, but at least the TWA flight attendants had the wherewithal to fight their injury in the halls of Congress...hence, McCaskill-Bond.

But, on the other side of the argument, it would have been interesting to see how many Empire pilots at that time had active applications on file with Piedmont. Given the amount of airline hiring going on at the time, including Piedmont, my guess is that most Empire pilots had sent resumes to Piedmont anyway. Absent that merger, how many of those Empire pilots would have bolted if Piedmont offered them a new hire position? We'll never know.

 

[Black Swan]

Bingo.

No bingo. The West is represented by USAPA . Two lists, LCC pilots and AA pilots.Time for the NMB to intervene and let another AZ judge know what she can and cannot do under RLA law. Submit the DOH list now, and see what she and the company say. Then sue the company if they balk.
It is time for USAPA to put the hammer down. Silver is going far beyond her bounds.
USAPA should meet with Leonidas and bring a nice stack of newspapers and earplugs. The negotiating time came and went years ago.

 

[CaptChill]

Smallest airline with one base? Where do you work?

I work for US airways. There are 4 bases. My airplanes says us airways on it. My uniform has us airways wings on it. My CEO is Doug Parker. Who is your CEO?

My airline has 26 WB airplanes. How many does your airline have?

I pay extortion dues to a fake union called usapa. Who do you pay dues to? Unless usapa is willing to refund the west pilots all of the money usapa has collected I unfortunately an a usapa member. Are you?

My career expectations are based on an airline called us airways merging with an airline called American. Who are you merging with?

If you work for us airways you and I have the exact same assets going into this merger. We have the exact same contract. If you were furloughed in 2005 you are going to less seniority than I do.

And you're arranged by date of hire... as are we!

 

[Black Swan]

Did I list the Nicolau?

I listed federal laws.

You guys are really losing it.

You are so clueless on RLA issues. You were warned for years. Now you are going to find out the reality. DOH with the East pilots is your reality.
Ferguson had a chance to negotiate with Mitvka and George Mitchell. He blew them off. Not our problem now.

 

[Bill Brasky]

What is the problem question to difficult for you? They really are easy to answer.


Technical questions? Answer carefully.

Who represented the east pilots during the us AAA/AWA merger?

When we all become APA who will represent the American pilots during the seniority integration?

When you figure out the correct answer to those questions you can answer your own question about M/B being window dressing.


Would you like to try answering the questions instead of insulting me?

I didn't insult anyone. I just made an observation. You're an idiot. Nothing subjective about that.

Please, do us a favor and tell the Judge next week that it's Nic or nothing. I dare you.

 

[nycbusdriver]

No bingo. The West is represented by USAPA . Two lists, LCC pilots and AA pilots.Time for the NMB to intervene and let another AZ judge know what she can and cannot do under RLA law. Submit the DOH list now, and see what she and the company say. Then sue the company if they balk.
It is time for USAPA to put the hammer down. Silver is going far beyond her bounds.
USAPA should meet with Leonidas and bring a nice stack of newspapers and earplugs. The negotiating time came and went years ago.

The question of the NMB, their lawyers and the RLA keeps surfacing occasionally.

Is it within the purview of the NMB to even get involved at this stage? Do they (have they) actually intervened, even shown up or "parachuted," in a federal court where they are not specifically required to be there? The NMB has only lawyers who have opinions. A judge has different powers, and a judge's opinions often become more than mere opinions when they rule.

If Judge Silver is indeed overstepping her bounds here, would she even get a phone call from the NMB, and who exactly would place that call? Would that caller have any real authority? Wouldn't the NMB have to wait until there is an actual decision/ruling on Judge Silver's part? Until she actually decrees something, the decision is not ripe!

There is a bit of a separation of powers (the judicial and the executive) in play here, which would then require the Supreme Court to intervene. A real mess. But I do believe that Judge Silver is treading on dangerous ground here, and any compromise brokered by her court would likely not stand up to appeal.

 

[Bill Brasky]

The question of the NMB, their lawyers and the RLA keeps surfacing occasionally.

Is it within the purview of the NMB to even get involved at this stage? Do they (have they) actually intervened, even shown up or "parachuted," in a federal court where they are not specifically required to be there? The NMB has only lawyers who have opinions. A judge has different powers, and a judge's opinions often become more than mere opinions when they rule.

If Judge Silver is indeed overstepping her bounds here, would she even get a phone call from the NMB, and who exactly would place that call? Would that caller have any real authority? Wouldn't the NMB have to wait until there is an actual decision/ruling on Judge Silver's part? Until she actually decrees something, the decision is not ripe!

There is a bit of a separation of powers (the judicial and the executive) in play here, which would then require the Supreme Court to intervene. A real mess. But I do believe that Judge Silver is treading on dangerous ground here, and any compromise brokered by her court would likely not stand up to appeal.

I think I'd wait and see how this works out. I think she must understand those issues. She already ruled that USAPA was free to negotiate its own list, so she gets it. Just because she's asking probing questions doesn't mean that she doesn't already know the answer. If she rules in any way that goes against her original, clear language and intent, then it should be appealed, but I really don't think that's going to happen.
Not an expert, but I've never seen anything about NMB getting involved in this sort of thing once it gets to a Federal court. The laws are there, it's up to the courts to interpret them, and if they do it wrong it gets appealed, I think that's how it works.

It's clear from the transcripts that she knows whom the intransigent party is in this. I hope the westies show up thumping their chests some more.

As far as Mr Siegel goes, his testimony was way off base. First, he said that this POS was ripe, which, according to the Ninth it clearly isn't. and second, he says that there are no negotiations to get from the MOU to the JCBA phase, despite what is in the MOU. He may pretend to understand labor law, but he clearly doesn't understand it in this case.

 

[Crzipilot]

MR. SZYMANSKI: So, Your Honor, first of all, I
think -- I thought that it was clear when we argued about the
declaratory judgment action that USAPA's position was that the
Nicolau Award was not its obligation and it did not plan to go
ahead and propose the Nicolau Award or follow the Nicolau
Award.
THE COURT: You said that, I believe --
MR. SZYMANSKI: Transcript from the argument?
THE COURT: Yes. You're prepared to talk. We want
to talk and we will want genuine engagement with the West
Pilots about the seniority proposal and we are proposed to make changes. No changes.
MR. SZYMANSKI: Changes in the date-of-hire proposal,
not changes in the Nicolau proposal.
THE COURT: Well, you never said that. If you had
said that in open Court, then we would have had a hearing at
that time because the issue was what I made quite clear is that you had to go forward. USAPA had to go forward and with an
open mind and that the Nicolau Award was not irrelevant. It
was to be considered.
You know, I, frankly, don't have enough experience
with seniority agreements. I do, to some extent, way back when
I did some of this work, as to whether or not there might be a
fair way, taking into account not only the Nicolau Award, and I am quite aware that it wasn't a unanimous decision and adate-of-hire proposal for seniority.

MR. SZYMANSKI: And, Your Honor, I'm not saying thatthe Nicolau Award is not fair although there were significant
problems with it, and I'm not saying that a date-of-hire
proposal is not fair. We've given the Court cases and
citations to a number of Court decisions that say that a
date-of-hire proposal is within the union's duty of fair
representation and is fair.
But there are a number of other possible proposals
and we were prepared to discuss those with representatives of
the West Pilots and they said no. They did not want to talk
about that.
THE COURT: And taking that as true, they stood
stiff-legged in front of you and said no way? It's Nicolau or
nothing.
MR. SZYMANSKI: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: So what you're saying is that that just
broke down the negotiations? You couldn't offer anything?
What would you have offered?

THE COURT: Let's read all of the order which I
thought I was very clear to make the -- all counsel and the
parties in front of me; but I basically said that you could, in fact, go forward and make a decision without the Nicolau Award but I didn't say that you unequivocally could reject it. I said that it was dangerous for you to do that because it was
considered fair. So you had to consider it. Now that's what I said and there's no way you could read that order any other way.

MR. SZYMANSKI: Yes. And when I left this Court, Ivsaid we were going to try to engage them in a discussion to try to resolve it and we did. But they said we don't want to talk about anything other than the Nicolau Award.
THE COURT: Okay.
So, in other words, they, then, didn't comply, as far
as you're concerned, with my order either, which was that USAPA did not have to adopt only the Nicolau Award but had to be fair.
So they stymied you. They were the wall as far as
you're concerned and your client is concerned?
MR. SZYMANSKI: And they are still there, Your Honor.
They have not changed their position

MR. HARPER: But indeed our position is neutral is
not good enough under these set of circumstances for where we
were. On September 7, 2013, the West Pilots had a
Transition Agreement that required the Nicolau to be dropped in to any negotiated -- and that changed on the eighth.
THE COURT: So you are -- you wish to re-merge and
say that now the Nicolau Award, is it for your clients and
nothing else? That despite what I said, which is that USAPA
does not have to accept the Nicolau Award as the only basis
upon which to negotiate a fair seniority agreement -- now,
that's what I said; correct?
MR. HARPER: I think what you said is that if they
abandon the Nicolau without a legitimate union purpose, then
they are substantially at risk.
THE COURT: That's right. But that doesn't mean they
have to adopt it, embrace it. So what happened after that
order that would indicate that, in fact, they were not going to at least consider it?
MR. HARPER: The Nicolau?
THE COURT: Right.
MR. HARPER: He just told you. They have -- from --
Mr. Bradford wrote his first letter back in May of 2007. But
from there clear on through today --
THE COURT: Okay. I heard him today. Give me some
facts now after the MOU was, in fact, made final. What
happened?

MR. HARPER: Their duty -- the breach of the duty was
not to include the Nicolau in the MOU.
THE COURT: And is that as simple as it is?
MR. HARPER: Yes. I think that that is the breach of
the duty of fair representation. They had the duty to insist
on the Nicolau and they didn't.
THE COURT: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. They
don't have a duty to insist on it?
MR. HARPER: As part of the negotiations, yes.
THE COURT: Well, you're saying they had to come to
the table. So what we're talking about is what I thought Iresolved which is it can be considered. It should beconsidered. There has been a determination that it's fair butthat doesn't have to be the final decision on seniority.
Now, that's my ruling.

Con't on next...

 

[Crzipilot]

THE COURT: Okay. And do you agree with
Mr. Syzmanski that there is at least the potential of a fair
negotiation and seniority agreement that is divined that is not Nicolau and is not date of hire but is a confluence of both?
MR. HARPER: You mean between the West and the East
Pilots?
THE COURT: Well, yes. The proposal they come to thetable with. They come to the table under the MOU and startnegotiating with the APA. Does it have to be Nicolau becausethen we're -- the two of you are standing stiff-legged.
MR. HARPER: We are.
THE COURT: And contrary to what I have ordered,which is that you must both give in and reach an agreement thatcan be a confluence of both, the fairness of the Nicolauagreement and perhaps the fairness of DOH. Now, if you're
taking that position, then there's a problem.
MR. HARPER: We're taking the position that they have
a duty to follow through with what they agreed -- ALPA agreed
to and Airways accepted back in 2007 which is the Nicolau.
That is our position, Your Honor. And we think that the union
has the duty to represent us, the minority, and not trump us
because they are the majority and put something else on the
table.
THE COURT: So, then, are you not, then, in violation
of the agreement or the Court's order? I made quite clear --
do I have to read the Court order to you, too, Mr. Harper?
MR. HARPER: I don't think -- I'm sure we're not in
violation because --
THE COURT: Well, I said they do not have to adopt
Nicolau. Okay?
Now, they have said, and Mr. Syzmanski very candidly
said today they are not Nicolau. Are you saying on the other
side it has to be Nicolau?
MR. HARPER: We are saying the duty is to present the
Nicolau in the course of the pilot integration process --
THE COURT: Okay. Just present it but not propose itas the only method and means of adopting a seniority agreement.

MR. HARPER: When we get to this process here --
that's the process. When we get to the process --
Jen, can we put this back up, the timeline?
Your Honor, we go in to the post-August 15, 2013, and
moving in to the end of the year. We're saying when they go to start that process, that they need to present the Nicolau Award unless they have a legitimate union purpose for not doing so.
The touchstone is the legitimate union purpose.
THE COURT: Okay. Okay. I agree with you. But the
legitimated union purpose can be in representing everyone whichwould also be the East Pilots and coming up with a combination;
right? You agree that there are a variety of different
seniority agreements --

So what's this mean to you guys??? How many times does she state, USAPA does not have to adopt the NIC? I read at least 4, among other nuggets like, Harper not complying with the her order to sit down and come off the NIC.......

 

[Crzipilot]

The other great quote in there......

THE COURT: Okay. Okay. I agree with you. But the
legitimated union purpose can be in representing everyone whichwould also be the East Pilots and coming up with a combination;

So I guess there is your elusive LUP, Silver just defined it for everyone, as simple as representing EVERYONE........

Check.....

 

[AWE Dog]

Smallest airline with one base? Where do you work?

I work for US airways. There are 4 bases. My airplanes says us airways on it. My uniform has us airways wings on it. My CEO is Doug Parker. Who is your CEO?

My airline has 26 WB airplanes. How many does your airline have?

I pay extortion dues to a fake union called usapa. Who do you pay dues to? Unless usapa is willing to refund the west pilots all of the money usapa has collected I unfortunately an a usapa member. Are you?

My career expectations are based on an airline called us airways merging with an airline called American. Who are you merging with?

If you work for us airways you and I have the exact same assets going into this merger. We have the exact same contract. If you were furloughed in 2005 you are going to less seniority than I do.

Your delusional, you work under a whole different contract. You did say 3 way didn't you?? Mesa would have a better chance in this 3 way.

 

[Bill Brasky]

Your delusional, you work under a whole different contract. You did say 3 way didn't you?? Mesa would have a better chance in this 3 way.

We don't even fly the same airplanes. See, he IS an idiot.

 

[Black Swan]

I very much enjoy the fact that the scab unions biggest mouthpieces think they know more than....oh,,,,I don't know....

We are up to 5 federal judges who say it is ripe, plus the attorneys for AMR, APA,LCC and AOL.


Best hope the judge takes it easy on you and issues the injunction.

She can t do any more than she has tried. And she has already gone over her limits. Time for USAPA to call for NMB intervention right now. Time for USAPA to march the DOH list into Parker's office.
The tide went out in PHX, and it was clear who was swimming without their trunks: nic4, Cleardirect, snap this, Prechillil, Ames and 700UW to name just a few.
Where is the ripeness? The harm? The injunction, and oh my, the Nicolau list?
At the bottom of the sea.