and still nothing for the peons....

[WeAAsles]

Seems like the corporate greed issue, touched a nerve? No, your theory of  not caring about your fellow employee dates back to at least the B-Scale system of the 1983 contract at AA that those members showed how much they cared.  I would really like to to see a fully employed society, instead of paying taxes to support them. Look at the minimum wage war, what has happened? The demands of those workers forced some into unemployment and some businesses into closing, is that ok with you? Paying the Peons should happen, but look at your own contract, where is the Gain Sharing Plan? Why can't the union force the company to uphold what they agreed to?  Truly, how do you feel about the wage disparity of the mechanics to the other union members or those other members to those on the unemployment line? Since you seem to have me pegged, do you own any firearms? 

Sorry NO. Not a conservative, not interested in being a conservative and can't stomach the idea for the most part and why I finally got out of Tejas. No firearms. I prefer a baseball bat that I can wrap upside someone's head if they piss me off. Can you guess which city I come from. Give you a hint, think bagels and real pizza.

 

[Rogallo]

You Italian?

 

[bob@las-AA]

View attachment 10763
Click to enlarge
 
I did a little digging and came up with this.
 
This reflects the total number of airline employed from 1990 -2014
The players are AA,UA,DL,US,WN
The total job loss do to 911 and the recession of 2007 was 36,266 from all 5 airlines.
 
UA shed 47,173 from a peak of   102,046
DL shed 36,740 from a peak of     83,472
US shed 32,645 from a peak of     53,776
AA  shed 29,445 from a peak of  107,311
WN shed   1,817 from a peak of    43,542
 
The Total loss of 150,000 is False.

 

[WeAAsles]

empairline.jpg
Click to enlarge
 
I did a little digging and came up with this.
 
This reflects the total number of airline employed from 1990 -2014
The players are AA,UA,DL,US,WN
The total job loss do to 911 and the recession of 2007 was 36,266 from all 5 airlines.
 
UA shed 47,173 from a peak of   102,046
DL shed 36,740 from a peak of     83,472
US shed 32,645 from a peak of     53,776
AA  shed 29,445 from a peak of  107,311
WN shed   1,817 from a peak of    43,542
 
The Total loss of 150,000 is False.

Thanks for the info Bob. So outside of WN, AA in that time frame shed the least amount of jobs by percentage by far. I guess to some on here having jobs smacks of socialism and it's better to have far less if the ones left are paid much better.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Are there any charts and graphs for fleet?

the DOT does not collect separate data for airport personnel but their category "Passenger, Cargo and Aircraft Handling (Inhouse)" includes above and below wing airport personnel and cargo.

looking at contracts doesn't at all provide an accurate comparison because the DOT data is the only publicly available data that shows actual usage - ie what employees end up with including by distribution of seniority and not what is on a contract 

not surprisingly, union supporters here love to negate the value of what is in the DOT data esp. since it shows that non-union DL's airport group is the highest paid of the big 3.
 

Average In House Maintenance Employees per Aircraft
 
Showing that the number of maintenance employees per aircraft also shows the TWU type unionism at its core. Having a system where the union is a business unto it's own which in this case, requires a higher number of members to make their revenue mark and at the same time applying their culture of socialism employment, only leaves the company with one direction and that is to keep a lower cost per employee. This has worked well for almost all involved. The company, the union, but not the mechanic.

 
^^^this^^^
 
 

empairline.jpg
Click to enlarge
 
I did a little digging and came up with this.
 
This reflects the total number of airline employed from 1990 -2014
The players are AA,UA,DL,US,WN
The total job loss do to 911 and the recession of 2007 was 36,266 from all 5 airlines.
 
UA shed 47,173 from a peak of   102,046
DL shed 36,740 from a peak of     83,472
US shed 32,645 from a peak of     53,776
AA  shed 29,445 from a peak of  107,311
WN shed   1,817 from a peak of    43,542
 
The Total loss of 150,000 is False.

despite the fact that weAAsles can't recognize that AA's history now includes US' it is absolutely accurate that AA has now shed more jobs than any other airline.

the fact that the AA/US merger was done so late and the separate histories for AA and US can't be combined because DOT stats are not available for the combined entity while they are for DL and UA doesn't excuse any airline for any job losses or provide a platform from which AA can boast.

and as much as some want to believe otherwise, AA and US have long used a strategy of having more headcount at lower individual rates of pay than other carriers.

Unions like that strategy but individual employees do not

It's not a surprise why weAAsles supports the union strategy of more bodies, lower individual pay.

 

[Kev3188]

Keep it up, guys; capital loves these circular firing squads...

We squabble while they laugh & laugh...

 

[Buck]

Sorry NO. Not a conservative, not interested in being a conservative and can't stomach the idea for the most part and why I finally got out of Tejas. No firearms. I prefer a baseball bat that I can wrap upside someone's head if they piss me off. Can you guess which city I come from. Give you a hint, think bagels and real pizza.

Wow, even the real Vito's carried guns and you must be from Corleone, Sicily? Yes, it is rather obvious that you are not a Conservative. I never asked that question.

 

[WeAAsles]

Keep it up, guys; capital loves these circular firing squads...

We squabble while they laugh & laugh...

Thanks for the smart perspective Kev. I've already made my point on this thread anyway.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Keep it up, guys; capital loves these circular firing squads...

We squabble while they laugh & laugh...

so it's not ok for labor to express its displeasure unless it is about the way mgmt. is "winning?"

of course there is dissension among labor and there should be discussion as long as there are tangible, verifiable losses that AA's union members are suffering relative to their peers.

 

[Zom JFK]

Keep it up, guys; capital loves these circular firing squads...

We squabble while they laugh & laugh...

We've got one that can see!

 

[eolesen]

Can you guess which city I come from. Give you a hint, think bagels and real pizza.

Chicago?
 

I did a little digging and came up with this.
 
This reflects the total number of airline employed from 1990 -2014
The players are AA,UA,DL,US,WN
The total job loss do to 911 and the recession of 2007 was 36,266 from all 5 airlines.
 
UA shed 47,173 from a peak of   102,046
DL shed 36,740 from a peak of     83,472
US shed 32,645 from a peak of     53,776
AA  shed 29,445 from a peak of  107,311
WN shed   1,817 from a peak of    43,542
 
The Total loss of 150,000 is False.

 
Your number just for those five carriers adds up to 148,000, Bob.... where do you get the idea it only adds up to 36,000?

No, I don't think it's false. It's just not fully qualified. That number has been thrown around since 2008, so none of the post-recession growth gets figured into it.

The loss of 150,000 is probably close once you factor in regional airlines, defunct airlines, cargo airlines, and other companies directly tied to serving airlines, e.g. security, catering, & MRO.

Security companies alone lost 16,500 jobs with the creation of TSA. While those jobs left the airline industry (and are left in the loss number), the fact is they just moved over to the government sector (and just one reason I say the 150,000 isn't fully qualified).

Aloha had 3500, ACA/Independence had 2500, ATA had 2300, Champion was around 500, amd National had around 1500. Then there's Great Plains, Hooters, MaxJet, Eos, Gemini Air Cargo, Reeve Aleutian, Vanguard, and Zantop (really miss those Electras...).

ABX eliminated ~7000 jobs just in Wilmington, OH.

Add that all up across the board, and you have another 36,000 jobs in addition to the 148,000 from the five majors.

Then there's the loss of jobs at companies like Gate Gourmet, LSG SkyChefs, etc. as airlines eliminated meals, and offshoring taking out some of the smaller domestic MRO's. No idea what that loss was, but it's probably in the thousands as well.

The more critical reason I'd hesitate from continuing to quote that 150,000 number is there seems to be no offset for jobs created/restored since 2008. There has been growth.

Have more than 36,000 jobs been restored in seven years? Possibly, which makes the 150,000 entirely plausible.

But even 150,000 may be understating the actual job losses. Including the directly related companies I've mentioned, the losses may be closer to 200,000 from 2001 until today.

 

[Vortilon]

And still currently at the moment how many more jobs are under your umbrella than are at other airlines? I know you don't care about those things but those are the direct reasons that you are compensated less than your industry peers.

All I would ever really like just one of you guys to say or admit is that you don't care about those jobs and would dump them in a heartbeat if you could get more for yourselves.

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2013%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Productivity/MX/Average%20In%20House%20Maintenance%20Employees%20per%20Aircraft.htm

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2013%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Productivity/MX/Percent%20of%20Maintenance%20Expenses%20Outsourced.htm

 

 
Well, since the extra dues go to the TWU international - why shouldn't the pain be spread evenly throughout all TWU represented employees?   I  don't see where it's fair to the mechanics alone, to shoulder the burden of huge pay and benefit disparities between us and our peers at other airlines, to keep headcount up till the company decides to cut them lose anyway - that would make us the only socialists under the AA TWU umbrella.  Why don't you admit that you're a hypocrite?  How bout you put your money & benefits where your mouth is?   C'mon weasle, I've been doing it for the better part of 30 years at AA now, time for you to step up.  Remember, your charitable contributions (pay & Benefit sacrifices) are not tax deductible.

 

[WeAAsles]

 
Well, since the extra dues go to the TWU international - why shouldn't the pain be spread evenly throughout all TWU represented employees?   I  don't see where it's fair to the mechanics alone, to shoulder the burden of huge pay and benefit disparities between us and our peers at other airlines, to keep headcount up till the company decides to cut them lose anyway - that would make us the only socialists under the AA TWU umbrella.  Why don't you admit that you're a hypocrite?  How bout you put your money & benefits where your mouth is?   C'mon weasle, I've been doing it for the better part of 30 years at AA now, time for you to step up.  Remember, your charitable contributions (pay & Benefit sacrifices) are not tax deductible.

Oh that's right I forgot. We in Fleet didn't take a paycut in 03 that brought us back from $24.00 and change to $19.00 and change. We didn't lose double time and a half and a slew of Holidays. We didn't lose sick days. We didn't lose penalty hours and paid lunches. We didn't lose IOD days. We didn't lose Stations. We didn't lose members.

Goodness gracious I'm such a hypocrite. <_<

 

[WeAAsles]

Chicago?
 
 
 

Not unless that's where MoMA and Central Park are located? And my favorite Donovan's, Woodside. Best Shepard's Pie money can buy.

 

[Vortilon]

Oh that's right I forgot. We in Fleet didn't take a paycut in 03 that brought us back from $24.00 and change to $19.00 and change. We didn't lose double time and a half and a slew of Holidays. We didn't lose sick days. We didn't lose penalty hours and paid lunches. We didn't lose IOD days. We didn't lose Stations. We didn't lose members.

Goodness gracious I'm such a hypocrite. <_<

All that, and yet you remained at or near the top among your peers.